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Warbadger posted:That's my take on it, and exactly what I figured happened given the location and timing. Poorly trained and HIGHLY MOTIVATED air defense troops on high alert looking for poo poo to shoot down. I'm not surprised that it's mostly civilians ending up dead as a result of president dumb gently caress and his band of idiots, but wouldn't have guessed Canada would draw the short straw this time. 737 max chat - internal boeing emails have been leaked that showed employees bragging about misleading regulators, among other things. Choice quotes: “Would you put your family on a MAX simulator trained aircraft? I wouldn’t.” “This airplane is designed by clowns who in turn are supervised by monkeys" “I’ll be shocked if the FAA passes this turd.” “I still haven’t been forgiven by God for the covering up I did last year.” etc etc A long and proud history of air and space vehicle development isn't enough to save it from the excesses of  , hopefully they do a better job with the F15X.e. reminder that Mr Hands was a boeing engineer, there's a metaphor somewhere in there. Guest2553 fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Jan 10, 2020 |
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Jan 10, 2020 14:39
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Iranian state TV video of ballistic missile warhead mating and checkout in underground facility as well as some live fires. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p14m2sua24
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Jan 10, 2020 16:20
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Guest2553 posted:I'm not surprised that it's mostly civilians ending up dead as a result of president dumb gently caress and his band of idiots, but wouldn't have guessed Canada would draw the short straw this time. It's fair to place a small bit of blame on Trump for ramping up tensions. It's also fair to blame the Iranian military/IRGC and government leadership for doing the same. But it'd be really dumb not to put the vast majority of the blame for the Iranian military accidentally shooting down an airliner over their own capital city shortly after takeoff anywhere except on the Iranians who shot down the airliner or gave the orders to do so. Let's hope Iran is at least going to grudgingly fess up to the accident and try to compensate the families as the US did rather than continuing to deny everything.
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Jan 10, 2020 16:20
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Warbadger posted:Let's hope Iran is at least going to grudgingly fess up to the accident and try to compensate the families as the US did rather than continuing to deny everything. So in about eight years after losing an international court case, using an ex gratia payment and the stipulation that they do not admit to any fault and refuse to apologize? Seems possible, yeah.
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Jan 10, 2020 16:26
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Iran's stance is that the aircraft had a documented safety concern, and the pilots didn't consider it egregious enough to send halt flights and get repaired - They believe this safety concern was the cause for the crash. The crash site has been absolutely picked clean by first responders and rando civilians, people scavenging for souvenirs etc - a good investigation into this will be impossible, I think. MH17's crash site was a lot more secure, and even in that instance there were concerns about observers not being allowed access etc.
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Jan 10, 2020 17:02
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DrAlexanderTobacco posted:Iran's stance is that the aircraft had a documented safety concern, and the pilots didn't consider it egregious enough to send halt flights and get repaired - They believe this safety concern was the cause for the crash. Was the documented safety concern "Oh poo poo, Sergei, they've shot a missile at us!"?
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Jan 10, 2020 17:09
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Iran is not going to admit to shooting down the plane any more than Russia did.
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Jan 10, 2020 17:18
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It would be a better PR move for Iran to admit that one of their junior officers hosed up, blame the Great Satan for raising tensions in the region, mention the USS Vincennes shootdown, and then make the point that unlike the imperialist capitalist running dogs Iran accepts full responsibility, and really, isn't Iran acting so much nicer than Cheeto Mussolini? Would probably score them a lot of PR points.
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Jan 10, 2020 17:33
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It's always better PR to admit fault when everyone already knows you did it, but somehow people and organizations still don't do it. A mystery for the ages.
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Jan 10, 2020 17:34
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Mortabis posted:It's always better PR to admit fault when everyone already knows you did it, but somehow people and organizations still don't do it. A mystery for the ages. Possibly related to an internal power struggle /politics (just guessing) or just an entrenched "deny everything" mentality. We live in a post truth world anyway.
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Jan 10, 2020 17:40
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Mortabis posted:It's always better PR to admit fault when everyone already knows you did it, but somehow people and organizations still don't do it. A mystery for the ages. It makes sense from a litigation standpoint, but for an event like this Iran is much better served just admitting fault if and when they determine the actual cause assuming they haven't already.
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Jan 10, 2020 17:45
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Warbadger posted:It's fair to place a small bit of blame on Trump for ramping up tensions. It's also fair to blame the Iranian military/IRGC and government leadership for doing the same. But it'd be really dumb not to put the vast majority of the blame for the Iranian military accidentally shooting down an airliner over their own capital city shortly after takeoff anywhere except on the Iranians who shot down the airliner or gave the orders to do so. No doubt the Iranian military bears responsibility for being the proximate cause, but if trump hadn't disrupted what normally passes for stability in the region, we wouldn't be having to rely on Iranian competency to not exacerbate a crisis. To paraphrase Oscar from The Office, you can't blame questionably trained and equipped third world troops in a religious dictatorship for acting like questionably trained and equipped third world troops in a religious dictatorship. You can blame the abortive attempts at 'foreign policy' implemented by sycophants and morons that that created the conditions where questionably trained and equipped third world troops in a religious dictatorship have the freedom to do anything beyond firing on protestors. It's not a perfect example but say on 9/11, NORAD shot down an unrelated airliner it believed to be hijacked for whatever reason. Would we blame the US for trying to cover it up? If the public found out would they blame US incompetence or accept it as within the bounds of fog-of-war during a crisis? e. dropping vv Guest2553 fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Jan 10, 2020 |
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Jan 10, 2020 17:54
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Can we possibly stop talking about Trump in this thread, or at least stop coming up with dumb nicknames for him? This is somethingawful, nobody's wondering how you feel about him.
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Jan 10, 2020 17:56
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Since this is the cold war thread, remember that nuclear accident Russia had a while back? (like a year ago). https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/russias-nuclear-powered-%E2%80%98skyfall%E2%80%99-missile-unlimited-range-doomsday-weapon-74156 Looks like Project Pluto is back.
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Jan 10, 2020 18:14
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Are people really so up in arms about the prospect of potentially embarrassing some conservatives whose false messiah keeps loving up security issues that are precisely and squarely in the realm of airpower discussion?
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Jan 10, 2020 18:16
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Potato Salad posted:Are people really so up in arms about the prospect of potentially embarrassing some conservatives whose false messiah keeps loving up security issues that are precisely and squarely in the realm of airpower discussion? But enough about Curtis LeMay.
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Jan 10, 2020 18:19
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Smiling Jack posted:It would be a better PR move for Iran to admit that one of their junior officers hosed up, blame the Great Satan for raising tensions in the region, mention the USS Vincennes shootdown, and then make the point that unlike the imperialist capitalist running dogs Iran accepts full responsibility, and really, isn't Iran acting so much nicer than Cheeto Mussolini? Spin it as a bad decision in a time of heightened tension, give light sentences to the officers responsible, and contrast it with pardons for war crimes
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Jan 10, 2020 18:32
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They are certainly not backing down on this. Even inviting Boeing and affiliated countries experts over. https://twitter.com/PressTV/status/1215609395889037313
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Jan 10, 2020 18:46
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mlmp08 posted:So in about eight years after losing an international court case, using an ex gratia payment and the stipulation that they do not admit to any fault and refuse to apologize? The US fessed up to shooting it down immediately and the President sent a "Sorry about that" letter a few days later. Payment was issued 8 years later after losing a court case, but it was issued. Iran is currently denying they had anything to do with it and has been calling a plane exploding mid-air a mechanical failure since a few hours after the event. All while video of a missile zipping up to the plane, followed by a visible and audible explosion, and the plane breaking up while engulfed in flames is airing on international news. The first situation is way, way loving better than the second one. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Jan 10, 2020 |
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Jan 10, 2020 18:50
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mlmp08 posted:Iranian state TV video of ballistic missile warhead mating and checkout in underground facility as well as some live fires. So how many hours of global intel analyst manpower were poured into scouring every second of that video for something juicy the Iranians missed in the background when they cleared that for release?
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Jan 10, 2020 18:51
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simplefish posted:Does this actually work at all? 
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Jan 10, 2020 19:45
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I want to see footage of a sealed up LAV driving off the side from that height possibly with a ramp to see what happens. Would it bob up to the surface and be able to motor away? Sink? Snap in half? Roll upsidedown? Etc
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Jan 10, 2020 20:01
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priznat posted:Would it bob up to the surface and be able to motor away? Sink? Snap in half? Roll upsidedown? Etc Assuming a weight of 13 tons and a height of 50 feet, I don't think that anyone would actually try to find out.
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Jan 10, 2020 20:07
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priznat posted:I want to see footage of a sealed up LAV driving off the side from that height possibly with a ramp to see what happens. Would it bob up to the surface and be able to motor away? Sink? Snap in half? Roll upsidedown? Etc even being in a modern free fall lifeboat for that kind of drop looks really unpleasant and people evidently occasionally die: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5QvxugfQm0&t=50s
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Jan 10, 2020 20:10
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Warbadger posted:The US fessed up to shooting it down immediately and the President sent a "Sorry about that" letter a few days later. Payment was issued 8 years later after losing a court case, but it was issued. The president’s statement was not a formal apology, according to the US. Also we took a few years to admit the Vincennes was illegally in Iranian waters when it shot down the Iranian airliner.
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Jan 10, 2020 20:11
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Schadenboner posted:Was the documented safety concern "Oh poo poo, Sergei, they've shot a missile at us!"? "It is not our fault if the american planes do not use chaff" e: for the avoidance of doubt, that was a joke as well DrAlexanderTobacco fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Jan 10, 2020 |
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Jan 10, 2020 20:16
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mlmp08 posted:The president’s statement was not a formal apology, according to the US. Also we took a few years to admit the Vincennes was illegally in Iranian waters when it shot down the Iranian airliner. And yet an informal apology while admitting responsibility is still much better than "lol we had nothing to do with it, the plane obviously spontaneously exploded". Nobody here is saying the US response to Iran Air 655 was good. I am, however, saying that so far the Iranian response has been far worse and hope they at least reciprocate as far the US went - which was much better than outright denial. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Jan 10, 2020 |
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Jan 10, 2020 20:24
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So when China decided they wanted modern computers and presumably orders them from a western manufacturer do they go through a process of making sure American spy agencies didn't put a backdoor inside it? Or do Chinese military and government systems source 100% locally? How did the process of digitalization/modernization to use computer systems work in the former Soviet block and China?
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Jan 10, 2020 20:25
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Look who's back! https://twitter.com/MichaelbmorroB/status/1215599614260404225
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Jan 10, 2020 20:28
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Definitely rig up the LAV for driverless operation before ramping it off the deck of the LHD but I still wanna see it 
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Jan 10, 2020 20:30
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Raenir Salazar posted:So when China decided they wanted modern computers and presumably orders them from a western manufacturer do they go through a process of making sure American spy agencies didn't put a backdoor inside it? Or do Chinese military and government systems source 100% locally? How did the process of digitalization/modernization to use computer systems work in the former Soviet block and China? I would assume the same way they bought the varyag, only without the buying party being "a Chinese businessman"
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Jan 10, 2020 20:50
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priznat posted:Definitely rig up the LAV for driverless operation before ramping it off the deck of the LHD but I still wanna see it My father served in an armored engineer unit during his conscription. One day they were invited by the tankers to watch a demonstration of deep wading. Basically attach a long tube to air intake and exhaust, then drive the tank straight across a river. Not the best way to do things but it'll work if the engineers can't get to you and set up a bridge. They got the tank halfway across when it stalled and the crew climbed up the tube and swam back. Dad's first sergeant had the hugest poo poo-eating grin on his face, "You know we have a thing for that, right?"
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Jan 10, 2020 20:52
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bewbies posted:pretty sure none of the cleared posters in this thread are ever going to discuss anything classified on the Something Awful Forums, even if asked politely A long time ago me, Vilerat and Grover had a SIPR mailing list to take D&D discussions to the SECRET//NOFORN level. It was a good group til we all scattered to the winds.
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Jan 10, 2020 21:09
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Dante80 posted:They are certainly not backing down on this. Even inviting Boeing and affiliated countries experts over. So they're saying it had a prox fuse then? 
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Jan 10, 2020 21:11
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vuk83 posted:Spin it as a bad decision in a time of heightened tension, give light sentences to the officers responsible, and contrast it with pardons for war crimes This guy PRRRRRRs.
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Jan 10, 2020 21:13
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Page 1986. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc-vvhWXL9Q
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Jan 10, 2020 21:36
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmAbcDud2L8
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Jan 10, 2020 21:42
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Potato Salad posted:Are people really so up in arms about the prospect of potentially embarrassing some conservatives whose false messiah keeps loving up security issues that are precisely and squarely in the realm of airpower discussion? The realistic fair options are: 1. Let the thread turn into D&D. 2. Keep politics out. One-sided unidirectional bitchy asides that creep up to the line like a toddler's finger to dog poop are basically #1, except lacking the courage of conviction. I expect the report button would get hit if anyone on the right did the same.
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Jan 10, 2020 22:31
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Marine Corps Aviation Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Jan 10, 2020 |
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Jan 10, 2020 22:51
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I think I have found my new mojo I need to read up about this, but I'm guessing ther's not really anything for Joe Public like me
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