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https://twitter.com/thedailybeast/status/1216414549013880839 *infinitely expanding thunk-face*
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Jan 12, 2020 19:52
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https://twitter.com/emmaburnell_/status/1216349429843841024?s=21
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Jan 12, 2020 19:54
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endlessmonotony posted:I ain't sayin' the situation hasn't gone to poo poo or that y'all don't have your work cut out for you. Hmmm, I disagree with some of what you say, but I'm completely taken in by the affected folksy way you said it.
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Jan 12, 2020 19:58
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Watching Owen Jones self destruct on twitter is breaking my heart.
Katt fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Jan 12, 2020 |
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Jan 12, 2020 20:01
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Now I may just be a simple country shitposter,
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Jan 12, 2020 20:04
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Tbf he's right https://twitter.com/VnTa_/status/1216366528490287111?s=19 https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1216372197767503875?s=19
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Jan 12, 2020 20:10
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It's just completely batshit. Owen Jones is so inoffensive.
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Jan 12, 2020 20:18
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thespaceinvader posted:Blair's Labour was loving tories you utter spanner. I don't even disagree. But it was two fronts of Tories actively competing for votes which means they want to expand their voter base and thus they end up triangulating to the left. Borrovan posted:We all know Labour's hosed atm, the solution has to come from without. We need to organise outside of the party, create a mass movement, so that Labour is capitulating to us rather than the Tories or the loving libs. There's genuinely no way we can win electorally without some serious outpourings of anger that the Tories are fundamentally incapable of dealing with. If only because even the best neolib is essentially a vassal of the Tories. Not even a competitor just a vassal. (I do agree with what you're saying.)
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Jan 12, 2020 20:21
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endlessmonotony posted:I don't even disagree. But it was two fronts of Tories actively competing for votes which means they want to expand their voter base and thus they end up triangulating to the left. lol were you even alive for the Blair years? because some of us were and this is not what happened, at all
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Jan 12, 2020 20:24
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Julio Cruz posted:lol were you even alive for the Blair years? because some of us were and this is not what happened, at all Within context, which is "the Tories with no coherent opposition at all". Socialist Labour with integrity and coherent values would obviously be much better.
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Jan 12, 2020 20:30
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Just call a General Strike already
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Jan 12, 2020 20:31
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gently caress me if this isn't the proest of username/post combo chains I've ever seen. Why are you even engaging with them? THE PARTY IS DEAD
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Jan 12, 2020 20:31
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endlessmonotony posted:Within context, which is "the Tories with no coherent opposition at all". no it's just that the idea that Blair's Labour were "triangulating to the left" is loving laughable like look at the absolute loving horrorshow that were Labour Home Secs in the 90s
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Jan 12, 2020 20:34
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Ms Adequate posted:Just call a General Strike already We'll see how the tories handle the next five years 
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Jan 12, 2020 20:36
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Julio Cruz posted:no it's just that the idea that Blair's Labour were "triangulating to the left" is loving laughable I am aware. The argument is that they would have been even worse had they not been competing with each other.
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Jan 12, 2020 20:36
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Julio Cruz posted:no it's just that the idea that Blair's Labour were "triangulating to the left" is loving laughable It is absolutely no secret that for the period of the 90s to well, Corbyn, it was a choice between Red or Blue Tories. This "Labour is ded, dead, dead" nonsense is ridiculous.
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Jan 12, 2020 20:36
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endlessmonotony posted:I am aware. I'm not sure labour trying to outdo the tories on draconian domestic policy and war is really the kind of healthy competition we want?
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Jan 12, 2020 20:39
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endlessmonotony posted:I am aware. wait, hang on you were talking about gaining votes by triangulating to the left a few posts ago, now Blair's Labour are better because they competed with the Tories by... moving rightwards? what the utter gently caress are you talking about
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Jan 12, 2020 20:40
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What was it we said about laws named after people’s names? It’s that they’re cool and good right? https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/12/martyns-law-security-checks-for-venues-wins-government-backing Martyn’s Law’ security checks at venues win government backing
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Jan 12, 2020 20:42
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Julio Cruz posted:wait, hang on Borrovan's statement is the starting point of my point and they're mutually compatible (and indeed, largely the same). You seem to be replying to the individual posts which means you're viewing the statements out of context and indeed they don't make any sense whatsoever that way but I'll be hosed if I'm rewriting all of that for every post. People barely read my posts as is.
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Jan 12, 2020 20:49
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Julio Cruz posted:wait, hang on loving pound-shop ronya.
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Jan 12, 2020 20:50
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endlessmonotony posted:Borrovan's statement is the starting point of my point and they're mutually compatible (and indeed, largely the same). What?
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Jan 12, 2020 20:50
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endlessmonotony posted:People barely read my posts as is. 
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Jan 12, 2020 20:51
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marktheando posted:What? 
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Jan 12, 2020 20:52
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who is this psycho
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Jan 12, 2020 20:53
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I wasn't joking, I genuinely can't parse what you are trying to say.
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Jan 12, 2020 20:54
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goddamnedtwisto posted:I've mentioned this before but Iran has a fully justified hatred of the UK which is almost entirely independent of their hatred of the US. Yeah that’s true; this hardly makes them unique though. In a world full of countries that have been absolute arseholes to their fellow human beings, we’re up there with the worst.
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Jan 12, 2020 20:54
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i don't think monotony said anything remotely objectionable, you can move to the right from kinnock and still be left of major/howard/hague, if you put it in the context of Blair already being a tory, then he did triangulate left by joining and overtaking the party, does not seem particularly mad nor ronyaesque which is not to say it is a particularly valuable insight either
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Jan 12, 2020 20:54
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brian posted:i don't think monotony said anything remotely objectionable, you can move to the right from kinnock and still be left of major/howard/hague, if you put it in the context of Blair already being a tory, then he did triangulate left by joining and overtaking the party, does not seem particularly mad nor ronyaesque The posts are literally https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZA8mSZ51JY In long text form.
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Jan 12, 2020 20:57
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marktheando posted:I wasn't joking, I genuinely can't parse what you are trying to say. Borrovan posted:We all know Labour's hosed atm, the solution has to come from without. We need to organise outside of the party, create a mass movement, so that Labour is capitulating to us rather than the Tories or the loving libs. There's genuinely no way we can win electorally without some serious outpourings of anger that the Tories are fundamentally incapable of dealing with. Borrovan's post covers the most of it. On top of this I made an argument that it's better when our enemies are fighting each other than when they're just not being challenged at all by anybody. And that FPTP is poison but getting rid of it won't do jack poo poo without multiple competing (*) left wing organizations. * but not in a crab bucket kind of way, the left needs to compete within itself to avoid circlejerks but also unify when it comes to the bigger issues.
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Jan 12, 2020 20:58
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Bundy posted:The posts are literally buddy this whole thread is nothing but that
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Jan 12, 2020 20:59
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brian posted:i don't think monotony said anything remotely objectionable, you can move to the right from kinnock and still be left of major/howard/hague, if you put it in the context of Blair already being a tory, then he did triangulate left by joining and overtaking the party, does not seem particularly mad nor ronyaesque No, he didn't. Blair dragged Labour right, Labour did not drag him left.
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Jan 12, 2020 21:00
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endlessmonotony posted:Borrovan's post covers the most of it. On top of this I made an argument that it's better when our enemies are fighting each other than when they're just not being challenged at all by anybody. And that FPTP is poison but getting rid of it won't do jack poo poo without multiple competing (*) left wing organizations. So the answer is 1: get rid of fptp and 2: have multiple left wing organisations to stop PR going bad (I assume?) that all infight until election time I guess? Do I understand this correctly?  This is the solution for "Labour ded wot next"?
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Jan 12, 2020 21:01
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Jedit posted:No, he didn't. Blair dragged Labour right, Labour did not drag him left. lol they're literally the same thing, if you're working under the belief that he was a committed tory then he moved the labour party to be a left-triangulated-tory-party honestly what does it matter borrovan made a good post and this guy agreed in a roundabout way, that's all that happened
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Jan 12, 2020 21:03
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Bundy posted:So the answer is 1: get rid of fptp and 2: have multiple left wing organisations to stop PR going bad (I assume?) that all infight until election time I guess? Do I understand this correctly? Not in-fight but keep a "consensus left" that the lefties will vote for anyway (or not vote at all) from forming. See also: The PLP.
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Jan 12, 2020 21:03
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Blair moved the party to the right due to the right winning an internal power struggle within the party combined with the perceived death of socialism worldwide due to the collapse of the USSR and social democracy, on top of deindustrialization crippling traditional trade unionism. We are now in the reverse situation where Blairite neoloberalism is clearly not the answer (and in fact the cause of a lot of them) and left wing economic ideas are the only thing that will get us out of it. It should not be a surprise that Boris has copied chunks of the Labour manifesto (such as the MIT of the north and northern crossrail plans) because enough people have run out of patience with neoloberalism. The left is still the dominant force in the Labour party right now and while it will never be perfect we can still have an impact and hold left wing leaders to account. If you want to give up on the Labour party and the clout it has (especially given we have FPTP) you are basically suggesting we go back to the ultra-local stuff the left was doing prior to 2015 i.e. basically be irrelevant on a national scale.
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Jan 12, 2020 21:33
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Roger Scruton is dead. Good. Rest in piss.
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Jan 12, 2020 21:48
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Shame he didn't die before the election, might have made it more painful for him.
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Jan 12, 2020 21:50
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endlessmonotony posted:Borrovan's statement is the starting point of my point and they're mutually compatible (and indeed, largely the same). please elaborate on the context where "Labour under Blair triangulated to the left" is an accurate statement, tia
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Jan 12, 2020 21:53
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Bundy posted:Roger Scruton is dead. Good. Rest in piss.
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Jan 12, 2020 21:55
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