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if you were willing to forgive Corbyn for triangulation then why not forgive Long-Bailey for it too e: in 1959, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SQpOO4nmjE ronya fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Jan 13, 2020 |
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Jan 13, 2020 02:08
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There's triangulation and there's "this is a terrible idea that you are either going to have to backtrack on or you will gently caress up the party systemically" Like it's going to annoy people who would want to vote for her as the continuity candidate and it's going to annoy people who want her to do it because she probably won't be able to.
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Jan 13, 2020 02:17
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ronya posted:if you were willing to forgive Corbyn for triangulation then why not forgive Long-Bailey for it too Personally because the reason you're triangulating over matters. Brexit is a matter of utmost importance and either way the situation is innately transient. The press being a bunch of shitflingers is neither of utmost importance nor a transient situation.
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Jan 13, 2020 02:21
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OwlFancier posted:There's triangulation and there's "this is a terrible idea that you are either going to have to backtrack on or you will gently caress up the party systemically" someone who wins by 60% of the party vote is as much leader as someone who wins by 100% with Lansman machining for her she is v likely to win already, she just has to avoid screwing it up. Hence closely following whatever Nandy or Starmer said first, not least on the BoD weigh-in but on Corbyn's won-the-argument remark just days after "10 out of 10"
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Jan 13, 2020 02:24
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Jesus christ if the last cuntzillion posts are an example of new dnd rules in action I'm out. loving endlessmonotony, literally, then vitamin p and ronya turn up for a huge party. This posting is either unbelievably bad faith at worst or dumb as bricks at best and it's being engaged with sincerely by intelligent people in the same cyclic argument now for what feels like aeons with participants being the very same that get mad at a page of posts about pickled onion vs roast beef monster munch I'd gladly take Clockwork Orange style feeding of roast beef monster munch propaganda than this.
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Jan 13, 2020 02:38
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I'm not actually a gimmick poster unlike you might think from my name, I just post a little unclear and then think it's a good idea to explain what I meant until it finally twigs that I pulled off a name/post combo and probably any further posting explaining what I said would have the same effect as the twenty previous posts.
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Jan 13, 2020 02:47
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Like, the BoD want to make antisemitism an issue because they are wreckers. The best way to not make it an issue, given the BoD exists, is to not make it a news story. The best way to do that is to say yes to whatever they are bleating on about now and have it die in committee later. Weren't we just complaining a month ago about how Corbyn needed more media savvy and to play them better? This is what it looks like. And unless someone goes and firebombs the press out of existence, you have to react in some way when the other contenders are.
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Jan 13, 2020 03:23
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ronya posted:if you were willing to forgive Corbyn for triangulation then why not forgive Long-Bailey for it too Corbz should have gone full brexit, I’m with Galloway on this. Never appease a liberal
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Jan 13, 2020 03:36
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One of the things that happened in WW2 was that British propaganda lies were so massively successful in WW1 that people thought early rumors of the Holocaust were just more British bullshit. And justifiably! Brits had done such a thorough job poisoning the well that people didn't believe the actual atrocities that were happening.
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Jan 13, 2020 03:46
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Like, the BoD want to make antisemitism an issue because they are wreckers. The best way to not make it an issue, given the BoD exists, is to not make it a news story. The best way to do that is to say yes to whatever they are bleating on about now and have it die in committee later. Weren't we just complaining a month ago about how Corbyn needed more media savvy and to play them better? This is what it looks like. And unless someone goes and firebombs the press out of existence, you have to react in some way when the other contenders are. The issue I have is that it's not going to go away and promising something to renege on it later is a silly idea. She could have said she'd put it to a membership ballot because this is a party of its members if she wanted to say something about it, because the idea of giving the BoD diktat over the way the labour party works is absolutely an affront to any concept of a democratic party. It's bullshit and I do not think it is a good idea to entertain it. Like their suggestions are actually so stupid that they deserve to be told to gently caress off, they have no say over how we work, it is our party, not theirs. If they want a say on how it works they can join and vote like everyone else.
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Jan 13, 2020 04:04
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Also "I want to make it look like I support this very stupid idea so I can go 'I tried' once it inevitably fails in the next step" puts a sour taste into people's mouths.
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Jan 13, 2020 04:21
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it would not shock me if the next leader does whip the party to stay within the dotted lines on I/P and A/S - if the leader can grit his teeth and say that Israel has a right to exist, 1967 borders, &c, then so can the membership; people who just cannot endure going without denouncing Israel as a racist endeavour &c. might well be considered acceptable losses. There is no obvious reason why a left-wing movement that could (and did) demand compromise on core issues like austerity, immigration, nuclear disarmament, &c cannot also survive doing so on I/P... single-issuers are gonna single-issue but conversely that's how big tents work Corbyn always had an idiosyncratic fascination with backbencher takes on foreign policy (not I/P especially but a broad theme encompassing Venezuela, Russia, Iran, &c) but this neither quite gels with Londonesque internationalism nor with Labour heartlands neoisolationism, to pull a few media tropes from a hat... what worked in a post-Iraq mood would not continue to resonate as well two decades on. None of the younger gen have good reasons to pitch their campaign tent on this particular hill, with the notable exception of Williamson who has already successfully sidelined himself
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Jan 13, 2020 05:21
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Honestly, I don't know what's so difficult to understand here - let me break it down for you:pre:1 - The left abandon Labour 2 - ??? 3 - The left return with a huge unified social movement that is so powerful it can order Labour around and we get a socialist government 
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Jan 13, 2020 05:38
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Pilchenstein posted:Honestly, I don't know what's so difficult to understand here - let me break it down for you: Please explain how I'm supposed to actually explain what I said without just making GBS threads up the thread with more posts nobody will care to read? Also please explain how I can explain anything at all when people will not read my posts and instead set up strawmen? You could just let it be, I'm pretty resigned into nobody reading my posts no matter how well I explain my point.
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Jan 13, 2020 05:49
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Socialist policies are super popular but "the people" want a massively racist cult figure strongman to enact them.
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Jan 13, 2020 06:57
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ronya posted:it would not shock me if the next leader does whip the party to stay within the dotted lines on I/P and A/S - if the leader can grit his teeth and say that Israel has a right to exist, 1967 borders, &c, then so can the membership; people who just cannot endure going without denouncing Israel as a racist endeavour &c. might well be considered acceptable losses. There is no obvious reason why a left-wing movement that could (and did) demand compromise on core issues like austerity, immigration, nuclear disarmament, &c cannot also survive doing so on I/P... single-issuers are gonna single-issue but conversely that's how big tents work. The end game is to force Labour to end its support for the Palestinian cause and to declare that the Israeli Occupation is completely cool and the Labour Party's ok with it. The people attacking Labour for AS aren't going to stop until they get that outcome. Personally, I think that it would do the party no harm to talk about it a little less (after all, there are many, many bad things going on in the world, of which Israeli oppression of Palestinians is only one) but to switch to tacitly or openly supporting a gross injustice due to unfair external pressure is such a craven and cowardly thing to do that it sticks in my throat. I'd prefer to see the attacks continue forever rather than see Labour abandon its principles like that.
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Jan 13, 2020 07:21
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Pistol_Pete posted:The end game is to force Labour to end its support for the Palestinian cause and to declare that the Israeli Occupation is completely cool and the Labour Party's ok with it. The people attacking Labour for AS aren't going to stop until they get that outcome. Personally, I think that it would do the party no harm to talk about it a little less (after all, there are many, many bad things going on in the world, of which Israeli oppression of Palestinians is only one) but to switch to tacitly or openly supporting a gross injustice due to unfair external pressure is such a craven and cowardly thing to do that it sticks in my throat. I'd prefer to see the attacks continue forever rather than see Labour abandon its principles like that. on the other hand, three years of paying the political costs has not moved Labour from officially continuing to endorse a two-state solution, peaceful negotiated settlement, Israeli right to secure existence in return for 1967 borders, &c as a position indistinguishable from the FO position at large. It is not paying these costs for a distinct position of support inasmuch as for a rhetorical pitch... Corbyn has had to be dragged kicking and screaming into renouncing support for Hamas but renounce he has, it's not as if he did a Galloway/Melenchon last stand if one is merely only going to denounce settlements and call it a day, there's no obvious political gain from couching it in terms of gross injustice instead the diplomatic terms of regret and disapproval. And certainly an evident political cost...
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Jan 13, 2020 07:32
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OwlFancier posted:The issue I have is that it's not going to go away and promising something to renege on it later is a silly idea. She could have said she'd put it to a membership ballot because this is a party of its members if she wanted to say something about it, because the idea of giving the BoD diktat over the way the labour party works is absolutely an affront to any concept of a democratic party. It's bullshit and I do not think it is a good idea to entertain it. I don't disagree, but if they want to do another smear campaign later, they'll find a way. For now it avoids negative headlines. One tactic that also came to me is making support for this conditional on other parties' support, to ensure a level playing field or what have you. Then ask Johnson during PMQs if he's wiling to sign up to it.
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Jan 13, 2020 08:33
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u brexit ukip it posted:I don't disagree, but if they want to do another smear campaign later, they'll find a way. For now it avoids negative headlines. That gets portrayed as whataboutism, and the BoD wouldn't ever lean that hard on the Tories even if it did get accepted by them.
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Jan 13, 2020 09:06
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ronya posted:it would not shock me if the next leader does whip the party to stay within the dotted lines on I/P and A/S - if the leader can grit his teeth and say that Israel has a right to exist, 1967 borders, &c, then so can the membership; people who just cannot endure going without denouncing Israel as a racist endeavour &c. might well be considered acceptable losses. There is no obvious reason why a left-wing movement that could (and did) demand compromise on core issues like austerity, immigration, nuclear disarmament, &c cannot also survive doing so on I/P... single-issuers are gonna single-issue but conversely that's how big tents work I'm not willing to compromise on the right for Palestinians to be allowed to exist. It must be wild not believing in anything, everything being some sort of abstract concept ripe for horsetrading.
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Jan 13, 2020 09:14
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I have to imagine it would cause ego death if you thought about it too hard.
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Jan 13, 2020 09:16
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ronya posted:it would not shock me if the next leader does whip the party to stay within the dotted lines I'm counting down to the BoD calling Jon Lansman the International Antisemite.
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Jan 13, 2020 10:09
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forkboy84 posted:I'm not willing to compromise on the right for Palestinians to be allowed to exist. Hmm, now I'm curious how you got this from ronya's post. They posted: "if the leader can grit his teeth and say that Israel has a right to exist, 1967 borders, &c, then so can the membership;" - to me that sounds like, I dunno, fine? Or what exactly is the issue here, is something missing? Sorry I'm genuinely non-knowledgeable about the intricacies of I/P
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Jan 13, 2020 10:23
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I see the BoD have decided that only the BoD and it's heavily pro tory leadership can define what Antisemitism is. Great.
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Jan 13, 2020 10:24
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Guavanaut posted:It wouldn't shock me if they made overtures to that extent, but it would shock me if it worked, especially now that there's some substantial parallel structures. speaking of Lansman https://twitter.com/jonlansman/status/1216435239406460929?s=20 Lansman has argued before for aggressively putting down A/S as an issue and leveraged Momentum's power to whip his position on it before - e.g. dropping the CLPD's Willsman from the Momentum slate for the NEC (albeit not successfully in that case). Probably his particular parallel structure can be trusted to continue doing so... ronya fucked around with this message at 10:42 on Jan 13, 2020 |
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Jan 13, 2020 10:26
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ronya posted:if you were willing to forgive Corbyn for triangulation then why not forgive Long-Bailey for it too I'm pretty sure RLB wasn't triangulating anything in 1959
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Jan 13, 2020 10:33
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I skipped like 20 pages what did I miss did anyone die
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Jan 13, 2020 11:05
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Tesseraction posted:I skipped like 20 pages what did I miss did anyone die Yes actually, Roger Scruton, but that wasn't the reason for 20 pages.
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Jan 13, 2020 11:07
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OwlFancier posted:Yes actually, Roger Scruton, but that wasn't the reason for 20 pages.  Going out on a limb here and saying "good"
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Jan 13, 2020 11:11
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^ https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2020/jan/12/sir-roger-scruton-conservative-philosopher-dies-aged-75 edit: beaten
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Jan 13, 2020 11:12
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More like roger scrotum.
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Jan 13, 2020 11:16
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Also did anyone watch Doctor Who last night? For the entire last third of the episode Jodie Whittaker basically sits backwards on a chair and does a piece to camera about how climate change will destroy the planet and kill us all UNLESS HUMANITY CHOOSES TO SAVE THE PLANET. Noticeably I can't find mention of it in the fash rags. Only the Torygraph review pops up on Google and it gives the episode 2/5 for good reason: the rest of the plot was a hot goddamn mess. Props for the dramatic reverse Darth Vader/Luke bit that then immediately takes a back seat to 9 other pieces of a melodrama.
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Jan 13, 2020 11:22
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Like, the BoD want to make antisemitism an issue because they are wreckers. The best way to not make it an issue, given the BoD exists, is to not make it a news story. The best way to do that is to say yes to whatever they are bleating on about now and have it die in committee later. Weren't we just complaining a month ago about how Corbyn needed more media savvy and to play them better? This is what it looks like. And unless someone goes and firebombs the press out of existence, you have to react in some way when the other contenders are. If you think it dying in committee won't immediately drag the story back to the news... Tesseraction posted:Also did anyone watch Doctor Who last night? For the entire last third of the episode Jodie Whittaker basically sits backwards on a chair and does a piece to camera about how climate change will destroy the planet and kill us all UNLESS HUMANITY CHOOSES TO SAVE THE PLANET. Yeah they are not being subtle in a whole bunch of drama and doccos about how we need to stop loving up the world. But you don't see the Doctor dismantling major corporations, do you? (The current series has been, by and large, terrible, mostly because the writing has been at about the level of CBBC Who spinoffs, if not worse)
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Jan 13, 2020 11:29
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Tesseraction posted:Also did anyone watch Doctor Who last night? For the entire last third of the episode Jodie Whittaker basically sits backwards on a chair and does a piece to camera about how climate change will destroy the planet and kill us all UNLESS HUMANITY CHOOSES TO SAVE THE PLANET. Chibnall is an idiot clown who somehow turned the episode that was about Amazon into "gently caress millennials, Amazon is our friend and you can always trust friend Alexia" so him drowning an important measage like that in a dog turd of a production sounds about right. thespaceinvader posted:(The current series has been, by and large, terrible, mostly because the writing has been at about the level of CBBC Who spinoffs, if not worse) Definitely worse, Sarah Jane, absent anything else was at least presentable tv. ConanThe3rd fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Jan 13, 2020 |
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Jan 13, 2020 11:35
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jaete posted:Hmm, now I'm curious how you got this from ronya's post. They posted: "if the leader can grit his teeth and say that Israel has a right to exist, 1967 borders, &c, then so can the membership;" - to me that sounds like, I dunno, fine? Or what exactly is the issue here, is something missing? Sorry I'm genuinely non-knowledgeable about the intricacies of I/P It's less that part and more the "maybe everyone should do what they say and keep their mouths shut and let Israel get on with what it's doing" which yeah is kinda throwing the Palestinian cause under a bus
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Jan 13, 2020 11:36
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They're not going to stop no matter what you do unless, maybe, you literally join the Tory party.
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Jan 13, 2020 11:37
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happyhippy posted:I detest Buffy. This is from pages ago, but I think it's with mentioning that this is one of the central conflicts in the show. The power of the slayer was thrust upon a teenager who just wanted to have a normal life. So you do get dissonant moments like the one you mention, where she has become so surrounded by death and suffering that it's become almost commonplace, and escaping into something "normal" like going to prom becomes the all consuming goal. This why in the later seasons Buffy becomes a much more morose character with suicidal ideation. She wasn't able to hold onto the things which connected her to wider society i.e. family, college, career, relationships. Death becomes the only constant in her life, and her only means of escape. To quote the show, "death is [her] gift".
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Jan 13, 2020 11:42
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You can't libel the dead. Roger Scruton paid his bar tabs by performing donkey shows.
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Jan 13, 2020 11:51
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Tesseraction posted:
Lol elegies from such luminaries as Toby Young and Daniel Hannan; RIP in piss dead bitch.
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Jan 13, 2020 12:00
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As a philosophy student I once tried reading Roger Scruton. All I remember is some pretentious nonsense about how Western Aesthetic Values are inherently superior to other cultures. There seems to be something about Conservative philosophers which makes them love aesthetics and also make no sense to anyone outside their weird bubble. I think it might be racism.
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Jan 13, 2020 12:03
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