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skaianDestiny posted:I just finished reading through what's been released of Endo and Kobayashi’s Live Commentary on the Villainess why does literally every manga about an otome game seem to have the exact same premise? are there hundreds of these harry potter dating sims in japan, or just one extremely popular one that everyone thinks of first, like Super Mario Bros for flirting with boys? I'm not complaining, it's just weird that they're all the same
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Jan 13, 2020 14:04
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there are successful works with that premise, so why wouldn't there be a rush of derivative works?
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Jan 13, 2020 14:57
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:there are successful works with that premise, so why wouldn't there be a rush of derivative works? I mean, yeah that's fair, but it's wierd that I've got like 5 manga on the go right now about an otome game (or just a fantasy setting) about a magical school in a western featuring: Peasant girl abnormally skilled in magic Who is invited to attend the school where she meets Rival character who is the haughty daughter of a major nobel Who is in engaged to marry the prince, who doesn't care for her (and is the assumed love interest of the Peasant Girl) And is expected to end the story by being killed almost every time all of the framing devices are different (bakarina is clearly telling a different story than Endo and Kobayashi), I'm just curious why this is the setting they all use
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Jan 13, 2020 15:23
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egg tats posted:I mean, yeah that's fair, but it's wierd that I've got like 5 manga on the go right now about an otome game (or just a fantasy setting) about a magical school in a western featuring: They're all parodying the same "generic fantasy otome game" in the same way that all the other isekai stories are parodying the same generic Dragon Quest JRPG world with slimes and demon kings. I'm not sure if such a game has ever actually existed, but it's just part of the zeitgeist by now. Also there are like dozens of them, if you've only seen 5 that's pretty surprising. Clarste fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Jan 13, 2020 |
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Jan 13, 2020 15:38
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Its kind of weirder than normal because they all seem to be building off of the others. As far as anyone can tell there was never any sort of Otome game released with that premise/setting. It mostly seems to have been created by mashing common Otome stereotypes and plots with the current standard Isekai world probably since Isekai is so popular currently.
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Jan 13, 2020 16:50
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What I find mostly hilarious about a large number of otome isekai is that the ones with vaguely Euro/western nobility types tend to frame the upper/noble class as something to be upheld and that pesky upstart/peasant/heroine is actually loving up lives and the needed etiquette you see. There's usually a variation or at least acknowledgments that the upper class system has to change in order to better society (Duke's Daughter hand at benevolent capitalism for instance), but an egregious example of this is Tiara Rose that really lean into what I just said. Even An Observation Record of my Fiancée - A Self-Proclaimed Villainess, which I really like isn't innocent from this because the otome game heroine is shown to be a real nuisance, but it works better because the POV is from the male MC and the way he's characterized when interacting with his fiancee is cute. At the end of the day it's all in good fun, but it's something to think about. Compendium fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jan 13, 2020 |
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Jan 13, 2020 19:32
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there's also kenkyo, which i think was very popular but no one really emulated the modern day otome game setting. i guess it was insufficiently isekai-ish?
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Jan 13, 2020 19:38
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I was Reincarnated as an Otome Villainess and Started a Revolution of the Proletariat
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Jan 13, 2020 20:36
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Compendium posted:What I find mostly hilarious about a large number of otome isekai is that the ones with vaguely Euro/western nobility types tend to frame the upper/noble class as something to be upheld and that pesky upstart/peasant/heroine is actually loving up lives and the needed etiquette you see. There's usually a variation or at least acknowledgments that the upper class system has to change in order to better society (Duke's Daughter hand at benevolent capitalism for instance), but an egregious example of this is Tiara Rose that really lean into what I just said. Even An Observation Record of my Fiancée - A Self-Proclaimed Villainess, which I really like isn't innocent from this because the otome game heroine is shown to be a real nuisance, but it works better because the POV is from the male MC and the way he's characterized when interacting with his fiancee is cute. To be fair, the heroine in that one is also reincarnated and isn’t a peasant, iirc, just a lower ranked noble with a magic bird.
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Jan 13, 2020 20:44
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Also this is really good and wholesome fantasy tho I guess not isekai, though given how it is about an OP rando being made lord of..well, a giant grassy steppe, it feels adjacent to isekai.
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Jan 13, 2020 20:47
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Tarezax posted:I was Reincarnated as an Otome Villainess and Started a Revolution of the Proletariat "yesh, *sniff*, there is strife but perhaps that is due to hegelian dialectics and not perhaps due to *sniff* a personal issue between us"
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Jan 13, 2020 21:24
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Mors Rattus posted:Also this is really good and wholesome fantasy tho I guess not isekai, though given how it is about an OP rando being made lord of..well, a giant grassy steppe, it feels adjacent to isekai. I mean, the 35 year old protag gets married/engaged to a 15 year old in chapter 5, I'm not entirely sure it's good and wholesome
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Jan 13, 2020 21:28
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TheFlyingLlama posted:I mean, the 35 year old protag gets married/engaged to a 15 year old in chapter 5, I'm not entirely sure it's good and wholesome ...legitimately I did not realize she was fifteen.
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Jan 13, 2020 21:31
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Zore posted:Its kind of weirder than normal because they all seem to be building off of the others. As far as anyone can tell there was never any sort of Otome game released with that premise/setting. It mostly seems to have been created by mashing common Otome stereotypes and plots with the current standard Isekai world probably since Isekai is so popular currently. this is literally the best answer I could have gotten! this rules!
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Jan 13, 2020 21:42
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Mors Rattus posted:...legitimately I did not realize she was fifteen. He is just as grossed out as us readers by it, he is basically treating her as a little sister. So far.
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Jan 13, 2020 21:43
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Mors Rattus posted:To be fair, the heroine in that one is also reincarnated and isn’t a peasant, iirc, just a lower ranked noble with a magic bird. Still an upstart though, doesn't necessarily have to be a peasant girl heroine, just a disruptive force of nature that tries too hard to get the dudes because being a heroine in an otome game makes one feel they're entitled to all the attention
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Jan 13, 2020 21:48
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Siegkrow posted:He is just as grossed out as us readers by it, he is basically treating her as a little sister. So far. Yeah, I just haven't read the first chapter in ages, I thought she was adult-but-young rather than 'literally a teenager'.
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Jan 13, 2020 21:52
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Tarezax posted:I was Reincarnated as an Otome Villainess and Started a Revolution of the Proletariat enjoy Compendium posted:What I find mostly hilarious about a large number of otome isekai is that the ones with vaguely Euro/western nobility types tend to frame the upper/noble class as something to be upheld and that pesky upstart/peasant/heroine is actually loving up lives and the needed etiquette you see. There's usually a variation or at least acknowledgments that the upper class system has to change in order to better society (Duke's Daughter hand at benevolent capitalism for instance), but an egregious example of this is Tiara Rose that really lean into what I just said. Even An Observation Record of my Fiancée - A Self-Proclaimed Villainess, which I really like isn't innocent from this because the otome game heroine is shown to be a real nuisance, but it works better because the POV is from the male MC and the way he's characterized when interacting with his fiancee is cute. Yeah there's a lot of this. Also a lot of them just have the heroine secretly be evil while putting on a nice face, which is exactly how most of the villainesses in the "ur-games" work, so that's like, a bit... somewhere between lazy and ugly.
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Jan 14, 2020 00:41
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There's sometimes a few interesting twists. In Observation Log, the heroine doesn't realise she's using mind-control magic to charm NPCs, who behave like generic characters around her because of it. Duke's Daughter has the heroine turn out to be a spy for a rival kingdom, socially manipulating her way into several nobles' inner circles etc.
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Jan 14, 2020 01:32
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Syritta posted:Yeah there's a lot of this. Also a lot of them just have the heroine secretly be evil while putting on a nice face, which is exactly how most of the villainesses in the "ur-games" work, so that's like, a bit... somewhere between lazy and ugly. Everyone does it. Everyone has a public mask on that hides their private face. Everyone has an agenda and everyone is trying to manipulate everyone else into following that agenda. It's standard high society drama/intrigue. Which gets watered down a bit when done in otome games because it takes a decent sized cast to really get that sort of things going and that's more non-shippable npc's you gotta write for  Mors Rattus posted:Yeah, I just haven't read the first chapter in ages, I thought she was adult-but-young rather than 'literally a teenager'. Elfface posted:There's sometimes a few interesting twists. In Observation Log, the heroine doesn't realise she's using mind-control magic to charm NPCs, who behave like generic characters around her because of it.
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Jan 14, 2020 01:43
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there was one otome game villainess wn with a peasant revolt. it was led by the game heroine, who had also reincarnated but had to live the peasant life during her childhood. so, she was very bitter about feudalism and not particularly inclined to live out the game and accumulate a harem of pretty boy nobles. naturally, she was the villain of the story and was presented as being dumb and wrong at all times. it wasn't even actually a peasant revolt because she was using mind control. the supposed heroine was the game noble villainess who had lived an incredibly comfortable life doing anything she wanted. her life was fine, so obviously there was nothing wrong with that particular medieval fantasy society. it was honestly pretty hosed up.
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Jan 14, 2020 03:05
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At least in Slow Prison life everyone is either a psycho or a dumbass. Or both Compendium fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Jan 14, 2020 |
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Jan 14, 2020 03:52
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:peasant revolt was led by the game heroine, who had also reincarnated but had to live the peasant life during her childhood... naturally, she was the villain of the story and was presented as being dumb and wrong at all times ... she was using mind control. 
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Jan 14, 2020 04:22
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A lot of these stories also have the protagonist go "oh, I don't mind being disowned/exiled because I don't care about being nobility, I'll just go relax in the countryside" as if that's super easy.
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Jan 14, 2020 04:28
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egg tats posted:why does literally every manga about an otome game seem to have the exact same premise? are there hundreds of these harry potter dating sims in japan, or just one extremely popular one that everyone thinks of first, like Super Mario Bros for flirting with boys? I think that they purposefully make it as strictly generic as possible because the main focus is always on the twist. Usually the manga/WN are still bad, though. This commentary one owns, though. That's a great twist on the concept.
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Jan 14, 2020 04:38
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It helps that the heroine isnt presented as a villain
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Jan 14, 2020 04:42
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Clarste posted:A lot of these stories also have the protagonist go "oh, I don't mind being disowned/exiled because I don't care about being nobility, I'll just go relax in the countryside" as if that's super easy. What’s funny is that this probably comes from Bakarina, where it works because it sits alongside the protagonist’s other contingency plans, such as throwing toy snakes at her fiancé
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Jan 14, 2020 05:07
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Compendium posted:What I find mostly hilarious about a large number of otome isekai is that the ones with vaguely Euro/western nobility types tend to frame the upper/noble class as something to be upheld and that pesky upstart/peasant/heroine is actually loving up lives and the needed etiquette you see. There's usually a variation or at least acknowledgments that the upper class system has to change in order to better society (Duke's Daughter hand at benevolent capitalism for instance), but an egregious example of this is Tiara Rose that really lean into what I just said. Even An Observation Record of my Fiancée - A Self-Proclaimed Villainess, which I really like isn't innocent from this because the otome game heroine is shown to be a real nuisance, but it works better because the POV is from the male MC and the way he's characterized when interacting with his fiancee is cute. I got a huge  from Duke's Daughter when Iris announced that she'll save her territory by introducing capitalism into it.EponymousMrYar posted:It's a neat little spark of societies clashing. The dude is told that she's "of marriageable age" by one of her culture and I like that the second thing he does (after the aforementioned 'wtf' reaction) is go 'ok, but the rules for where i'm from say that we can't get married for 3 more years, so we're going to have to be engaged that long. oh man i'm going to have to work my butt off to match that level of commitment from her.' This sounds like an extremely skeevy reasoning from the mangaka to me. You mentioned that the guy freaks out when he's told that he's marrying a 15-year old, so why didn't he just stomp down on that completely? The MC going, "I'll just wait 3 more years for her to turn 18 so we can get married" sounds like grooming to me. It's really creepy no matter how you spin it, and I'm not sure it fits in this thread.
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Jan 14, 2020 05:19
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Clarste posted:A lot of these stories also have the protagonist go "oh, I don't mind being disowned/exiled because I don't care about being nobility, I'll just go relax in the countryside" as if that's super easy. Everything's easy when you start out as nobility.
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Jan 14, 2020 06:13
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:there was one otome game villainess wn with a peasant revolt. it was led by the game heroine, who had also reincarnated but had to live the peasant life during her childhood. so, she was very bitter about feudalism and not particularly inclined to live out the game and accumulate a harem of pretty boy nobles. It sounds like this one: https://www.novelupdates.com/series/an-otome-games-burikko-villainess-turned-into-a-magic-otaku/
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Jan 14, 2020 06:32
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This conversation reminds me of already-posted-in-this-thread-somewhere-before Last Boss, because the protagonist is quite honest that she don't wanna be poor, and it's cute, and silly, and I almost wish it wasn't complete because I want more
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Jan 14, 2020 06:37
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amigolupus posted:This sounds like an extremely skeevy reasoning from the mangaka to me. You mentioned that the guy freaks out when he's told that he's marrying a 15-year old, so why didn't he just stomp down on that completely? The MC going, "I'll just wait 3 more years for her to turn 18 so we can get married" sounds like grooming to me. He had just done something so ridiculously heroic that every unmarried woman in the entire tribe was about to start fighting (literally) to become his wife. The chief told him, "If you want our help, and want to keep the peace, you need to show everyone that you're taken." So he agreed to at least pretend so the others would back off. Only then did he learn how old she was. Yeah, I know. It sounds worse than it is, though. quote:It's really creepy no matter how you spin it, and I'm not sure it fits in this thread. Probably also true.
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Jan 14, 2020 07:01
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If you've reached the point where you have to explain how it's totally cool in context it's already too late.
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Jan 14, 2020 07:24
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amigolupus posted:It's really creepy no matter how you spin it, and I'm not sure it fits in this thread. I would put it firmly in the 'maybe post in thread' column for but it's definitely worth a gander (Ryoumin-0.) So far it's only 10 chapters long. Clarste posted:If you've reached the point where you have to explain how it's totally cool in context it's already too late. Some things are worth a look despite having a great big obvious wart on them. I firmly believe that Ryoumin-0 is one of them. If people check it out and like it, cool. If they check it out and don't like it? Ok. If they don't check it out, also ok.
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Jan 14, 2020 07:41
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Authors always contrive some bullshit reason, of course it's okay to gently caress a childlike dragon because you see they are actually 1000 years old Then readers defend it without thinking too deeply about the writing If you gotta stretch then it doesn't belong in the wholesome thread
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Jan 14, 2020 07:50
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booksnake posted:This conversation reminds me of already-posted-in-this-thread-somewhere-before Last Boss, because the protagonist is quite honest that she don't wanna be poor, and it's cute, and silly, and I almost wish it wasn't complete because I want more IIRC, there's a continuation but it's just under another name similar to the Bookworm manga.
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Jan 14, 2020 08:33
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Onean posted:I've been reading the WN translation on NovelUpdates, and it only gets better. I ended up bingeing those too (I know, I have problems) and everything is just so cute. I hope the LNs are in english some day because I'd love to read a more polished version.
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Jan 14, 2020 09:29
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Tarezax posted:I was Reincarnated as an Otome Villainess and Started a Revolution of the Proletariat
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Jan 14, 2020 09:36
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amigolupus posted:I got a huge Unless you're big into Socialism With Dragon Warrior Characteristics, when you're starting from a feudal system that's actually the correct thing to do even if your eventual goal is socialism. I mean, I get that people have a hard on for mass starvation and panopticon authoritarianism, but for some reason they always forget about Marxist historical materialism saying that capitalism was a necessary stage to create the production base from which socialism could emerge. The Communist Manifesto literally says "The bourgeoisie, during its rule of scarce one hundred years, has created more massive and more colossal productive forces than have all preceding generations together."
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Jan 14, 2020 10:22
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Paracelsus posted:Unless you're big into Socialism With Dragon Warrior Characteristics, when you're starting from a feudal system that's actually the correct thing to do even if your eventual goal is socialism. also lmao at the idea of trying to convince the current power-holding nobles and mercantile classes to forfeit their power to form a communist state from the get-go, might as well title it, "I was an otome villainess for about fifteen minutes before i was executed"
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Jan 14, 2020 12:55
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