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DariusLikewise posted:Make Harry the governor general and maybe the Queen will decide its time the Crown vacates Canada Do they still make the royals learn French, I'm sure he can get his BBB
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Jan 14, 2020 18:17
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quote:Premier John Horgan says Coastal GasLink project will proceed even with Wet’suwet’en opposition https://twitter.com/RomeoSaganash/status/1216897063390085120?s=20
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Jan 14, 2020 18:24
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flakeloaf posted:A meaningful consultation with the hereditary chiefs on their terms, which includes acknowledging their jurisdiction over unceded territory sounds like a good start. Not that the RCMP blockade is a good way to deal with it, of course.
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Jan 14, 2020 18:40
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If the Wet'suwet'en had their poo poo together vis a vis their governance we probably wouldn't have gotten to this point where the government can go forward and can pick and choose which aspect of Wet'suwet'en leadership goes along with what they want and state that they're obeying the law. The Haida constitution for example says that a 2/3rds majority of hereditary chiefs need to agree with international agreements. In such a situation the Council of the Haida Nation would have been been able to show a unified front regardless of any internal differences of opinion among leadership groups.
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Jan 14, 2020 18:50
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Trapick posted:How would you handle the disagreement between the hereditary and elected chiefs? Elected chiefs and band councils were implemented by the federal government under the Indian Act. Even if they're considered a legitimate authority (which is still a point of contention), as part of the Indian Act their jurisdiction is only on reserve lands. The pipeline is going through unceded territory, so the argument is that it doesn't matter what the elected council says.
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Jan 14, 2020 18:50
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That sounds like an internal matter for that nation to sort out. Tell us who's in charge and send us that person. If that's already a settled question and a holdout refuses your lawful authority, YOU move him.
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Jan 14, 2020 18:50
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flakeloaf posted:That sounds like an internal matter for that nation to sort out. Tell us who's in charge and send us that person. It's not simply an internal matter when the federal government are the ones who forced the implementation of a new form of government that was seen as more "civilized".
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Jan 14, 2020 18:57
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Femtosecond posted:If the Wet'suwet'en had their poo poo together vis a vis their governance we probably wouldn't have gotten to this point where the government can go forward and can pick and choose which aspect of Wet'suwet'en leadership goes along with what they want and state that they're obeying the law. I also think this is largely the correct take. Although it is cool and good that the Wet'suwet'en chiefs are opposing fossil fuel infrastructure, all the other facts surrounding this case make it hard to really defend it. Natural gas does not create the same kind of environmental disaster when it leaks, the many first nations seem to support the pipeline and there is a contested government infrastructure. Siding with the hereditary chiefs if they have not been given a democratic mandate through a constitution makes it pretty hard. I mean you can still be against the use of the RCMP and how they are approaching the situation or how this situation speaks to Indigenous rights in general but this is not really the greatest battle to spend organizational resources on. Grassy Narrows, tanker traffic and the harassment of traditional hunters are probably all issues with better facts.
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Jan 14, 2020 19:10
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I hope I'm not off on this, but I think there's also a misunderstanding of indigenuous consensus governments. poo poo is hella complicated and time consuming but there's a strong organizational history within those communities that you don't do things until drat near everyone is consulted and agrees to it in some aspect. So just talking to the political leaders and then pushing things through without communicating with hereditary/cultural leaders can be a real no go. There's clearly people in the community who are pro pipeline so I'd be curious to see a referendum or even a poll to see opinions, but who knows if that's even viable. CRISPYBABY fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Jan 14, 2020 |
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Jan 14, 2020 19:25
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Yeah it's not really a cut and dry situation. What's deffo not helpful is letting the cowboys get suited up in their tacticool knock off military gear and ramping things up. You know at least some of these guys are sporting a chubby all day for getting to play dress up and carry the big gun around openly.
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Jan 14, 2020 19:32
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The Butcher posted:Yeah it's not really a cut and dry situation.
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Jan 14, 2020 19:34
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Quite aside from the question of treaty obligations or sovereignty there's also the fact that elected NDP governments have very clearly signaled through their actions that they do not think climate change is a serious issue. The Horgan government, just like the Notely government, is not behaving as though it takes the warning of climate scientists seriously, and given the situation we're in that's a really big problem.
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Jan 14, 2020 19:35
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folytopo posted:Siding with the hereditary chiefs if they have not been given a democratic mandate through a constitution makes it pretty hard. I mean you can still be against the use of the RCMP and how they are approaching the situation or how this situation speaks to Indigenous rights in general but this is not really the greatest battle to spend organizational resources on. I don't mean to single you out specifically, but settler-colonials tend to get stuck in the mindset that western democratic ideals are the only valid form of governance (or that nothing better is possible), which is the reasoning that led to Canada's history of cultural genocide. I'm just gonna copy my post from the last time this came up. Coxswain Balls posted:You can read about it in a little more detail here: Coxswain Balls fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Jan 14, 2020 |
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Jan 14, 2020 19:36
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Helsing posted:Quite aside from the question of treaty obligations or sovereignty there's also the fact that elected NDP governments have very clearly signaled through their actions that they do not think climate change is a serious issue. The Horgan government, just like the Notely government, is not behaving as though it takes the warning of climate scientists seriously, and given the situation we're in that's a really big problem. I think this quote pretty much sums it up. Horgan posted:“We want to see British Columbians sharing in the wealth of our great province. We want to see everyone prospering. We want to see an environment protected for future generations.” Same old bullshit.
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Jan 14, 2020 19:39
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No, see, *our* fossil fuels aren't the problem... edit: also Coxswain your link in there is trimmed for some reason: https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/indian-act-and-elected-chief-and-band-council-system Trapick fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jan 14, 2020 |
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Jan 14, 2020 19:43
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The Butcher posted:I think this quote pretty much sums it up. Yeah, I know that in a world where the left has been losing for longer than most posters here have been alive that we all reflexively think that something is better than nothing but we're really approaching a point where it's hard to sustain the idea that the NDP is doing anything except for encouraging people to be complacent while the world burns down in front of them. I still don't know what the alternative is but supporting the NDP seems to be actively contributing to the problems right now. I think its increasingly hard to sustain the idea that getting NDP governments elected provincially or federally is in any way advancing a larger agenda beyond getting the NDP into office. In fact the actual record of elected NDP provincial governments suggests that it would be more plausible to say that getting NDP government's elected has usually resulted in things getting worse.
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Jan 14, 2020 19:50
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Leofish posted:Jesus, what they do to piss off the PM? Oh yeah, I forgot about Winnipeg.
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Jan 14, 2020 20:08
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Helsing posted:Quite aside from the question of treaty obligations or sovereignty there's also the fact that elected NDP governments have very clearly signaled through their actions that they do not think climate change is a serious issue. The Horgan government, just like the Notely government, is not behaving as though it takes the warning of climate scientists seriously, and given the situation we're in that's a really big problem. Yeah this is a big thing for me. In my opinion any government that takes climate change seriously should be using any excuse and any opportunity to delay and obstruct building more fossil fuel infrastructure. Whether that's procedural delays, denial of permits, siding with the indigenous groups that oppose pipeline development instead of the ones who support it, whatever it takes they should be fighting against expanding the industry that's making our planet uninhabitable for human civilization. Instead the NDP just like every other Canadian government is doing the exact opposite, finding any excuse and any opportunity to expand fossil fuel infrastructure--and, it seems, just for the sake of fighting against their reputation as job-killing socialists. It's extremely depressing because climate change is absolutely the defining issue of our age and we're running out of time to do anything about it, and every political party we have is so completely two-faced about it, talking about how it's a big problem and then acting like it's irrelevant.
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Jan 14, 2020 20:21
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Coxswain Balls posted:I don't mean to single you out specifically, but settler-colonials tend to get stuck in the mindset that western democratic ideals are the only valid form of governance (or that nothing better is possible), which is the reasoning that led to Canada's history of cultural genocide. I'm just gonna copy my post from the last time this came up. Hereditary chiefs not recognized in a constitution or supported by elected leadership are going to be a potential sticking point in any political struggle over the issue. Even if you want to make the moral case for recognizing their authority, it does not mean that it does not hurt the particular struggle they are engaged in at the moment. You recognize in your reply how easy it will be for the companies in question to muddy the waters on this issue.
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Jan 14, 2020 20:21
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Helsing posted:I still don't know what the alternative is Open your mind man. There are many options we haven't tried yet. Full Fascism - Pros: snazzy outfits. - Cons: due to post history, will not be the one wearing the snazzy outfit. Libertarianism - Pros: no more taxes - Cons: need to Religious Extremism - Pros: more wives! - Cons: more wives... Apocalyptic Death Cult - Pros: Get to be part of an apocalyptic death cult - Cons: ???
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Jan 14, 2020 20:48
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The Butcher posted:Open your mind man. There are many options we haven't tried yet.
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Jan 14, 2020 20:57
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The Butcher posted:- Cons: ??? Assless leather pants chafe something fierce and get cold in the winter.
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Jan 14, 2020 20:57
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vyelkin posted:Yeah this is a big thing for me. In my opinion any government that takes climate change seriously should be using any excuse and any opportunity to delay and obstruct building more fossil fuel infrastructure. Whether that's procedural delays, denial of permits, siding with the indigenous groups that oppose pipeline development instead of the ones who support it, whatever it takes they should be fighting against expanding the industry that's making our planet uninhabitable for human civilization. Instead the NDP just like every other Canadian government is doing the exact opposite, finding any excuse and any opportunity to expand fossil fuel infrastructure--and, it seems, just for the sake of fighting against their reputation as job-killing socialists. It's extremely depressing because climate change is absolutely the defining issue of our age and we're running out of time to do anything about it, and every political party we have is so completely two-faced about it, talking about how it's a big problem and then acting like it's irrelevant. At this point I honestly would rather see the party pulling stunts that might make them less electable but which would at least send a big flashing signal saying "poo poo is hosed". I don't know if it would work but it is very clear that the current NDP strategy isn't working and couldn't possibly work under any conceivable circumstances, and at this point continuing to support the party is implicitly a way of supporting that. The way the NDP is behaving here clearly signals that they do not actually consider climate change a real threat. I can't really blame low info voters who don't have much time for politics if they glance at the news and notice that even the supposedly leftist NDP is continuing to behave as though climate change is a low priority.
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Jan 14, 2020 21:03
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The Butcher posted:Apocalyptic Death Cult FTFY.
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Jan 14, 2020 21:07
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MA-Horus posted:limited guzzoline Only if your death cult sucks. I'll be proposing a guzzoline tax rebate of up to 400 bullets per family for families earning less than 40000 bullets per year. It's all about helping our wretched mutant class, and those working hard to join it.
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Jan 14, 2020 21:07
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Hi everyone, most of you know me but for anyone new my name is Helsing and it has been two days since my last drink. I can't even remember when water first took hold of me, my whole family has been drinking it for as long as I can remember. My parents used to pass jugs of it around the dinner table. Hell, we practically bathed in it. I'm just grateful I've found a supportive community to help me through my long recovery.
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Jan 14, 2020 21:11
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Helsing posted:At this point I honestly would rather see the party pulling stunts that might make them less electable but which would at least send a big flashing signal saying "poo poo is hosed". I don't know if it would work but it is very clear that the current NDP strategy isn't working and couldn't possibly work under any conceivable circumstances, and at this point continuing to support the party is implicitly a way of supporting that. Not using your power is close to the same as not having it. At least BC has some community organizations and other things to get involved with so that there is some decent alternative. A lot of places the environmental organizations are not aggressive enough at organizing to be electorally relevant or societal relevant level. Anyone work with any groups that are up to snuff?
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Jan 14, 2020 21:30
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Helsing posted:Hi everyone, most of you know me but for anyone new my name is Helsing and it has been two days since my last drink. I can't even remember when water first took hold of me, my whole family has been drinking it for as long as I can remember. My parents used to pass jugs of it around the dinner table. Hell, we practically bathed in it. I'm just grateful I've found a supportive community to help me through my long recovery. The first step is to admit you're posting in CanPol.
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Jan 14, 2020 21:32
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 Why does anyone care what this man thinks anymore.
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Jan 14, 2020 21:33
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He's running
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Jan 14, 2020 21:34
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less than three posted:
Was he always this goddamn loving stupid or was it me that changed and now I can recognize it better?
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Jan 14, 2020 21:38
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Helsing posted:At this point I honestly would rather see the party pulling stunts that might make them less electable but which would at least send a big flashing signal saying "poo poo is hosed". I don't know if it would work but it is very clear that the current NDP strategy isn't working and couldn't possibly work under any conceivable circumstances, and at this point continuing to support the party is implicitly a way of supporting that. I agree with this, the NDP and other Canadian political parties right now have really fallen into the trap of thinking that they can only follow, they can't lead. Historically, political parties have often played really leading roles driving change forward, getting out ahead of the population and convincing them why something is important. A political figure or political party making a strong case for something's importance can be a really strong strategy for engendering a shift in public opinion on that thing. But these days, centrist and "left-wing" parties tend to shirk that responsibility and instead think of themselves as either following public opinion that has changed ahead of government policy (think of Trudeau's "because it's 2015" comment here) or being straitjacketed into following public opinion on other issues. Even for real left-wing causes, the left often frames those as "we're just doing what the electorate wants", as when they point to polling saying majorities favour policies like heavily taxing the rich. The framing is that politicians can only follow and never lead. And that's wrong-headed, since political parties absolutely can lead and have done so to great effect throughout history. If a party like the NDP treated climate change as the threat it really is, and followed through, it could theoretically help reshape Canadian opinion on climate, but instead we interpret it as "the electorate doesn't think climate change is important, therefore we can't push important climate policies" instead of "we have to show the electorate why climate change is important so that they support our climate policies". folytopo posted:Not using your power is close to the same as not having it. At least BC has some community organizations and other things to get involved with so that there is some decent alternative. A lot of places the environmental organizations are not aggressive enough at organizing to be electorally relevant or societal relevant level. Anyone work with any groups that are up to snuff? The BC example is especially egregious because Horgan is in a minority propped up by the Green Party. If the Green Party were actual environmentalists, they could use that leverage to force him to be more climate-minded, but they aren't, so they don't, because they don't want to risk losing the leverage that they're actually using to push the NDP towards anti-worker policies.
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Jan 14, 2020 21:38
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PT6A posted:Was he always this goddamn loving stupid or was it me that changed and now I can recognize it better? As leader of the opposition he wanted Canada to join the US and invade Iraq in 2003. He hasn't changed a bit.
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Jan 14, 2020 21:39
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Iran in 2023 will do as a replacement for Iraq 2003 I guess?
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Jan 14, 2020 21:41
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PT6A posted:Was he always this goddamn loving stupid or was it me that changed and now I can recognize it better? Yes.
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Jan 14, 2020 21:44
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PT6A posted:Was he always this goddamn loving stupid or was it me that changed and now I can recognize it better? He was in fact always this stupid. Good on you though. vyelkin posted:As leader of the opposition he wanted Canada to join the US and invade Iraq in 2003. He hasn't changed a bit. It's only by the grace of CPC not forming a government until 2006 that we managed to stay out of that particular clusterfuck. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Jan 14, 2020 |
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Jan 14, 2020 22:08
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Well that's slightly embarrassing.
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Jan 14, 2020 22:10
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We really need to change the way we elect politicians. I propose a death match to take over someone's position. That way the best fighter wins and we don't have thousands of ex politicians making GBS threads up the political sphere with their lovely opinions.
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Jan 14, 2020 22:32
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Arcsquad12 posted:We really need to change the way we elect politicians. I propose a death match to take over someone's position. That way the best fighter wins and we don't have thousands of ex politicians making GBS threads up the political sphere with their lovely opinions. 
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Jan 14, 2020 23:52
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Stuff like this makes me wonder if it's genuinely too late for Canada and we're just going to death spiral as everyone goes FYGM.
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Jan 15, 2020 00:20
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