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fadam posted:Why? Literally what else could be at fault?
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Jan 15, 2020 18:58
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Ban everything except creatures and combat tricks. Unironically.
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Jan 15, 2020 19:02
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Elephant Ambush posted:Ban everything except creatures and combat tricks. Unironically. Feathers time to shine on all formats
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Jan 15, 2020 19:03
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uggy posted:Literally what else could be at fault? The player for not conceding?
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Jan 15, 2020 19:04
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Elephant Ambush posted:Ban everything except creatures and combat tricks. Unironically. I take this back. Rancor can stay.
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Jan 15, 2020 19:06
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lots of people outing themselves as Tron playing scumbags 
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Jan 15, 2020 19:18
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sit on my Facebook posted:The only problem with the lattice ban is that they didn't also hit Primetime at the Sametime 
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Jan 15, 2020 19:22
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the best win condition of all time was elixir of immortality
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Jan 15, 2020 19:22
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Wizards doesn’t want “Your opponent cannot cast spells” to be a strategy. Killing your opponent by reducing their life total to 0 isn’t the same thing as rendering every card in their hand and deck unplayable. Virtually nothing else in Magic besides Iona can do that, and Iona can only do it to certain decks. “You can’t play cards” isn’t an axis they want the game to be played on. Also Fadam is correct, the Arena thread is full of people who post “I just forced my opponent to play out their Nexus of Fate win against me! It took 45 minutes and in the end they timed out and lost and I am better at Magic than they are!” and unironically believe it makes them sound good at magic instead of completely insane. Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Jan 15, 2020 |
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Jan 15, 2020 19:25
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Yawgmoth posted:Additionally, having situations where knowing when to scoop because the game is over but the game rules have not said "this game is over and you lost" is really poo poo design. I am very much an enfranchised, experienced magic player but having too many of those experiences generally leads to me selling most of my poo poo and quitting for a few years because I have better things to do with my time and money. My favorite part of playing on arena is the criteria for scooping is simply "Am I having fun right now? Y/N"
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Jan 15, 2020 19:56
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Elephant Ambush posted:Ban everything except creatures and combat tricks. Unironically. That sounds loving horrible honestly
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Jan 15, 2020 20:14
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Lord Of Texas posted:You are an enfranchised, experienced magic player and Wizards does not always make decisions with you at the forefront. Newer players to the game or format may not have the experience to know when they're 99.9% dead and may as well scoop. They stick it out and have a horrible experience and maybe enough of those type of experiences lead them to quit the game. You’re also patronizingly insinuating Magic players, even new ones are completely braindead and won’t be able to recognize the fact that they literally cannot win after two turns in a row play out the exact same way (i.e. they do nothing because they can literally do nothing) E: Like the combo being gone is completely whatever, it was an interaction they weren’t thinking of and Karn is still great without it but drat man have a little more faith in people’s basic pattern recognition TheKingofSprings fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Jan 15, 2020 |
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Jan 15, 2020 20:16
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gepgepgep posted:It's possible I've overlooked a post discussing this -- but does anyone have some good resources to point me towards strategy for a sealed pre-release event? I've been playing some limited on MTG Arena and at very recently started at my LGS, but it seems like 6 booster sealed will be a bit different in approach. Here's the chapter from Level One on sealed: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/lo/sealed-deck-2014-09-15 Sealed tends to be more about bombs (cards that can win the game on their own) than draft
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Jan 15, 2020 20:29
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Salvor_Hardin posted:My favorite part of playing on arena is the criteria for scooping is simply "Am I having fun right now? Y/N" Yeah Arena has definitely increased my inclination to just look at a board state, thing about my outs, and snap concede if I can't see a statistically probable line of play that works out in my favor. If I need to cast X spells for a daily or something I might stick it out but otherwise the reaction is "oh man, this hand is bad and my opponent is curving out. Let's see what the next card is...oh this is useless, let's go to game 2/3". I don't mind losing, but I do mind having my time wasted.
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Jan 15, 2020 20:31
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It's obviously true that a lot of people spend too long struggling and getting frustrated in already-lost games that haven't yet technically ended. But I don't think you can design around the expectation that they'll teach themselves not to, and "suck it up, baby" is not really where a mass market game wants to be, design-philosophy-wise. That said, they should unban Eggs and Top and just disqualify people on sight for slow play.
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Jan 15, 2020 20:36
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fadam posted:Look at how many posts are made in the Arena thread No thanks. Salvor_Hardin posted:My favorite part of playing on arena is the criteria for scooping is simply "Am I having fun right now? Y/N" A large number of the Pauper playerbase on MTGO will concede match immediately to Tron. A good number of WB Pestilence and Boros pilots with particularly poor Tron matchups aren't willing to spend 50 minutes for a 20% chance, and a good number of Tron pilots (including me) don't feel like slogging through a Tron mirror and will either snap concede if they're not undefeated in the league, or figure out who has a better record and give them the win. And that's in a 5-round event with a $10 entry fee. In the random free queues on Arena? Easy snap concedes.
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Jan 15, 2020 20:52
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TheKingofSprings posted:You’re also patronizingly insinuating Magic players, even new ones are completely braindead and won’t be able to recognize the fact that they literally cannot win after two turns in a row play out the exact same way (i.e. they do nothing because they can literally do nothing) I feel like this thread and maybe Magic players in general overstate how badly “feelbads” affect new players (see: bouncing Oring effects, protection, hexproof). I don’t think WotC should be designing the game to appeal to the incredibly small minority of crybabies who have a bad/annoying thing happen to them in game then quit forever over it.
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Jan 15, 2020 21:04
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i dont think that having game states where you've effectively lost but aren't dead is "bad design," and i don't think its some reach to expect players to recognize when they can't win and concede. it's not something that requires tons of brain power or experience or skill. i play league of legends, and you can end up in a game you can't win versus a team that's not coordinating well enough to beat you in less than 20+ more minutes. its genuinely pretty rare for a team to not concede in this situation even though it's less dire than in mtg, and this requires 4/5 players coordinating to concede. magic players being obstinate about not conceding a game they've lost versus control is a made up problem and 100% on the player base
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Jan 15, 2020 21:04
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rabidsquid posted:i dont think that having game states where you've effectively lost but aren't dead is "bad design," and i don't think its some reach to expect players to recognize when they can't win and concede. it's not something that requires tons of brain power or experience or skill. 1. My condolences. 2. You’re right. I do wonder how much of the problem comes from people just refusing or being unwilling to believe that a game can ever be “unwinnable.” Like, even if you’re super behind in something like Street Fighter, you’re never really 100% out of it.
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Jan 15, 2020 21:09
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tbf the two aren't really the same thing at all; a "short" game of league is 20 minutes, the "lost game" states in question are much less terminal than "you can never play another card", and everybody who plays it is desperate to concede to escape from their teammates "unwinnable" in magic means something utterly different than what it means in most other games, and the difference between a short and long game of magic is a ludicrous amount of time which ultimately supports the notion that learning to concede is part of learning MtG, really
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Jan 15, 2020 21:23
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rabidsquid posted:i dont think that having game states where you've effectively lost but aren't dead is "bad design," and i don't think its some reach to expect players to recognize when they can't win and concede. it's not something that requires tons of brain power or experience or skill. On the other hand League has a natural safety valve for players in that there are always 4 other people you can blame for everything
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Jan 15, 2020 21:23
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fadam posted:1. My condolences. I think there's a specific kind of brain poison you can get if you play a lot of games that causes you to overvalue incentives and undervalue opportunity costs. It's related to the fixation on EV in mediocre grinder type players - if you're already there to play, conceding a game you're 99% to lose just to save your sanity is leaving points on the table!
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Jan 15, 2020 21:29
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If you play modern with high skill decks like urza, etc, and you don't know when to concede to start games 2 or 3 earlier then idk what to tell you man, you kinda deserve to slowly die to control maybe? Just concede and get your subway sandwich.
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Jan 15, 2020 21:30
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TheKingofSprings posted:On the other hand League has a natural safety valve for players in that there are always 4 other people you can blame for everything The shuffler is RIGHT THERE
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Jan 15, 2020 21:30
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I want to like the concept of League style games but in practice every time I played one myself or watched someone play it grinds out like a particularly tough Control mirror match and I just don't have that kind of enthusiasm. At least with magic I can just quit when I'm not having fun without ruining 4 other player's 3 hour match.
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Jan 15, 2020 21:31
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I'll concede if its a big tourny with prizes, but at fnm, I play it out even if I'm 0% because other people like to see their decks do their thing. I lost to food chain and high tide and watched the whole thing both times cause it was fun to watch those decks go off, and because I play super linear decks that crumble to interaction of any kind, so not much else to do except watch.
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Jan 15, 2020 21:34
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The same thing happened to me with MOBA games as it did with overwatch I just realize that after a while I have been playing for at least a month longer than the last time I’d had fun playing it. I will never really enjoy a team-based game because you cannot ever depend on your team to not be lovely, and even perfectly optimal play is worthless if your team can’t capitalize on it.
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Jan 15, 2020 21:34
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Dr. Red Ranger posted:I want to like the concept of League style games but in practice every time I played one myself or watched someone play it grinds out like a particularly tough Control mirror match and I just don't have that kind of enthusiasm. At least with magic I can just quit when I'm not having fun without ruining 4 other player's 3 hour match. The trick, imo is to only play with friends (specifically, friends who aren't prone to losing their cool or getting mad at videogames) All other roads lead to suffering
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Jan 15, 2020 21:35
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StrugglingHoneybun posted:I'll concede if its a big tourny with prizes, but at fnm, I play it out even if I'm 0% because other people like to see their decks do their thing. At the first pioneer store champs I made the guy play out Kethis combo because I had no idea how it worked and wanted to know what to do in game 2 lol. Still lost. No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:The trick, imo is to only play with friends (specifically, friends who aren't prone to losing their cool or getting mad at videogames) Agree 100% Play team games in a stack or not at all (the latter especially if it’s Overwatch or DotA).
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Jan 15, 2020 21:36
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fadam posted:I feel like this thread and maybe Magic players in general overstate how badly “feelbads” affect new players (see: bouncing Oring effects, protection, hexproof). I don’t think WotC should be designing the game to appeal to the incredibly small minority of crybabies who have a bad/annoying thing happen to them in game then quit forever over it. Agreed. Designing around that sort of stuff seems like it has made Magic more shallow over time. One of my favorite things about the game is all the interesting lines of play that open up as you learn like Oringing your own permanent to dodge a wrath or flickering it to permanently remove something. Now all those effects are designed to only target opponents and don’t let you pull any instant speed bounce shenanigans which is boring and lame.
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Jan 15, 2020 21:39
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fadam posted:At the first pioneer store champs I made the guy play out Kethis combo because I had no idea how it worked and wanted to know what to do in game 2 lol. Still lost. At Regionals one time a guy sitting beside me was playing Reveillark combo and his opponent made him play it out. The guy got real mad that he called a judge and said "I do the combo and I win" and the judge explained he had to actually perform the combo and demonstrate the loop. Dude didn't know how the combo worked and hosed it up when he tried, and conceded the entire match in game 1. His friend laughed at him and I think showed him how to do it between rounds.
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Jan 15, 2020 21:43
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big brain move against winconless lock decks is to ride it out to the very end if you have to suffer through playing against their deck, so should they 
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Jan 15, 2020 21:48
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There's also that famous story about LSV building an entire Tendrils deck but forgetting to put actual Tendrils in, and nobody actually making him cast it.
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Jan 15, 2020 21:48
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Lone Goat posted:At Regionals one time a guy sitting beside me was playing Reveillark combo and his opponent made him play it out. The guy got real mad that he called a judge and said "I do the combo and I win" and the judge explained he had to actually perform the combo and demonstrate the loop. Dude didn't know how the combo worked and hosed it up when he tried, and conceded the entire match in game 1. His friend laughed at him and I think showed him how to do it between rounds. On the other side the worst is when it’s a deck that doesn’t have an obvious early kill point so you don’t sometimes get the free win from the snap concede. When I first borrowed Amulet Titan from a bud I think I bungled my land sequencing like five times before finally figuring it out. What was Reveillark combo?
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Jan 15, 2020 21:50
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Framboise posted:big brain move against winconless lock decks is to ride it out to the very end If I’m playing for money or at the store where I have to wait for the next round to start anyway and the opponent isn’t one of my buddies, mayyybe, but idk if I’m playing on MtGO or Arena I’d rather just get into another game.
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Jan 15, 2020 21:52
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fadam posted:On the other side the worst is when it’s a deck that doesn’t have an obvious early kill point so you don’t sometimes get the free win from the snap concede. When I first borrowed Amulet Titan from a bud I think I bungled my land sequencing like five times before finally figuring it out. i was also curious, and this explained it pretty well. certainly not intuitive just from knowing the pieces: https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Standard_Reveillark_Combo_deck
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Jan 15, 2020 21:56
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Attorney at Funk posted:I think there's a specific kind of brain poison you can get if you play a lot of games that causes you to overvalue incentives and undervalue opportunity costs. It's related to the fixation on EV in mediocre grinder type players - if you're already there to play, conceding a game you're 99% to lose just to save your sanity is leaving points on the table! i think this is pretty spot on and it also combines with the unfortunate brain poisoning of "the outcome of this game is 100% determined by my superior intellect" and the tendrils of this kind of spread out beyond mediocre grinders. its like a default player base position of "i need the value of the win" and "i am smart so i am better than the other player and my ego can't handle losing, especially to CONTROL, oh they think they're SO SMART"
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Jan 15, 2020 21:58
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Lone Goat posted:At Regionals one time a guy sitting beside me was playing Reveillark combo and his opponent made him play it out. The guy got real mad that he called a judge and said "I do the combo and I win" and the judge explained he had to actually perform the combo and demonstrate the loop. Dude didn't know how the combo worked and hosed it up when he tried, and conceded the entire match in game 1. His friend laughed at him and I think showed him how to do it between rounds. lmao
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Jan 15, 2020 22:01
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evilweasel posted:i was also curious, and this explained it pretty well. certainly not intuitive just from knowing the pieces: Serious respect to the people that figure this stuff out lol.
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Jan 15, 2020 22:02
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motedek posted:Here's the chapter from Level One on sealed: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/lo/sealed-deck-2014-09-15 Sealed tends to be more about bombs (cards that can win the game on their own) than draft
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Jan 15, 2020 22:03
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