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Alright. In my SA GotY blurb I said DE is "The Best Game I'll Never Finish". I aim to fix that. I bounced off the game on day 3. I came to realize one of the problems I was having is that I can never not be myself. I have bad problem solving skills and have severe conflict aversion. I made my character a roughneck with Authority as a signature skill envisioning myself as a "Bernie Brute" (look, somebody's gotta get their knuckles bloody). But that just isn't me. Also I didn't understand that Authority and "Authoritarian" are inextricably linked. Which was dumb. So now I'm running a 4-4-2-2 build (wheras my previous run was 2-4-4-2) with Logic as my signature skill. I would have gone 5-5-1-1 but A: I was scared to only have one health and B: I had no idea how I would get to the docks with that build outside of getting real lucky or save scumming. So I'm 45 minutes into that build and am already having more fun and am much more comfortable. Also I solved a major problem by taking off my pants. I made the jump to the docks first try. But my only pair of pants was the first pair of pants. Which gives - Savoir Faire. And as you probably know it's a Savoir Faire check. So off they went
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Jan 15, 2020 20:53
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ChrisBTY posted:Alright. In my SA GotY blurb I said DE is "The Best Game I'll Never Finish". My quick thinking, nimble cop spent the first two days of his investigation naked from the waist down. It was awfully nice of everyone to avoid mentioning it too much.
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Jan 15, 2020 21:04
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Regarding Torment v. Elysium, one thing that I find interesting is how they both do the idea of an amnesiac protagonist learning about their past, but they do it in vastly different ways. In Torment, the concept of an amnesiac protagonist is taken to its furthest extent, wondering what would it be like if you got amnesia countless times, each time resulting in a vastly different person. Obviously, it's turning the concept of an RPG protagonist with different playstyles on its head. The player version of the Nameless One, as a result, is a little bit of a blank slate. In Elysium, it's more-or-less a single incident of amnesia, but notably it's also a really imperfect one, where right at the beginning we know that we were an extremely damaged individual trying really hard to forget something. All the different versions of Harry we could be are less blank slate and more people who could be natural extensions of the prior version of Harry, wrestling with the same issues that pre-bender Harry did. How their recollections of their pre-amnesia lives affects the story also differs. The Nameless One finds out that he's basically been everything from a deranged genius to psychotic supervillain, arises to essentially a demigod status and successfully resolves the issue of his own immortality. Meanwhile, Harry finds out that he was more or less what he seemed to be at the beginning -- a washed-out drunk with relationship baggage -- and he solves the case but not his personal demons, at least not conclusively. I guess one way you could put that was that Planescape was still a lot about empowerment, while Elysium was a lot about disempowerment.
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Jan 15, 2020 21:11
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T:TooN takes an interesting approach to it as well. In a game where the whole of the subtext is relation between child and parent, the character's amnesia wasn't arrived at internally, but was forced on them by an external agent. Numenera was a really good game too. Wish it had been better received, wish Torment had been better received too. That's probably why we're seeing such a protracted development of the genre, the games just don't sell so the incentive to plug away at the formula isn't there. Lost Odyssey, which is the jrpg equivalent in a lot of ways, also didn't sell very well despite the 1000 years dreams text-logs being easily some of the best writing ever in a video game.
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Jan 15, 2020 21:22
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Numenera writing exemplified what Kurvitz said in his interview, that a lot of writing these days has become incomprehensible. It got worse as the game went on, too. It's not the worst rpg I've ever seen but it's just so forgettable.
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Jan 15, 2020 21:34
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Numenera and DE both start in the exact same way, pretty much, and the contrast between the quality of writing is striking.
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Jan 15, 2020 21:54
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evrart initially gave off a slimy disingenuous vibe to me but i think he's just so busy sucking his dick over all of his accomplishments.
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Jan 15, 2020 22:04
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dex_sda posted:Numenera writing exemplified what Kurvitz said in his interview, that a lot of writing these days has become incomprehensible. Mr. Dick is inclined to think that it better illustrates another point he made: that people will skim over text and not engage it at all unless the game forces them to.
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Jan 15, 2020 22:18
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dex_sda posted:Numenera writing exemplified what Kurvitz said in his interview, that a lot of writing these days has become incomprehensible. I thought Numenera peaked in the Bloom. That "character" was pretty well done, echoing Sigil from Torment but with a very different take on the city-with-portals idea. Both Torment and Numenera lose the plot in the run-up to the end, but Torment manages to end on a high note and Numenera just fizzles out. DE manages to avoid that slump entirely, imo.
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Jan 15, 2020 22:29
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ChrisBTY posted:Alright. In my SA GotY blurb I said DE is "The Best Game I'll Never Finish". There are other ways to that place. It is like half the point of Measurehead
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Jan 15, 2020 22:36
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Megazver posted:Numenera and DE both start in the exact same way, pretty much, and the contrast between the quality of writing is striking. It is yeah. The start of Numenera is quite weak in general too now that I think of it. Pacing is all wrong. Mr. Dick posted:Mr. Dick is inclined to think that it better illustrates another point he made: that people will skim over text and not engage it at all unless the game forces them to. It illustrates both tbh Antigravitas posted:I thought Numenera peaked in the Bloom. That "character" was pretty well done, echoing Sigil from Torment but with a very different take on the city-with-portals idea. Both Torment and Numenera lose the plot in the run-up to the end, but Torment manages to end on a high note and Numenera just fizzles out. DE manages to avoid that slump entirely, imo. The only Torment area that's bad is Curst proper imo.
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Jan 15, 2020 22:39
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The first time I played Torment I quit after Curst because I was just going from bad fight to bad fight. It gets better towards the very end but there aren't many interesting story beats out there except for the pillar of skulls. Numenera doesn't have many fights (and I avoided all the avoidable ones). So I guess you could consider DE a logical conclusion to that trajectory with its absence of terrible fights.
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Jan 15, 2020 22:49
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I will say I liked how Numenera tried to limit combat, but what was there was pretty much terrible. 
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Jan 15, 2020 22:50
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Antigravitas posted:DE manages to avoid that slump entirely, imo. By not stretching the post Ruby, pre "tribunal" section into another day of detective work. It worked, but it does make the end game feel compressed. Same with the size of the world map and the number of characters, for a 40 hour game it is very small and very dense. Apropos of nothing, PS:T took place in an unreal setting, it was common knowledge that you weren't on the prime material plane, but a place of ideas and stories. Numenera, you were in a very real place. DE, the setting is right on the threshold between the two. dex_sda posted:I will say I liked how Numenera tried to limit combat, but what was there was pretty much terrible. and unavoidable in a few places, including, like, 10 minutes into the game. Mr. Dick fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Jan 15, 2020 |
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Jan 15, 2020 22:59
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I'm seeing a lot of Planescape comparisons but DE also reminds me a lot of Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines. Playing a Malk in that game is a lot like jacking up Inland Empire and Shivers, even with the talking objects.
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Jan 15, 2020 23:11
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ChrisBTY posted:So now I'm running a 4-4-2-2 build (wheras my previous run was 2-4-4-2) with Logic as my signature skill. I would have gone 5-5-1-1 but A: I was scared to only have one health and B: I had no idea how I would get to the docks with that build outside of getting real lucky or save scumming. Just gotta learn a little race theory. My third playthrough is doing 2/5/1/4 and oh boy having 1 endurance sucks. I got Volumetric poo poo Compressor early and put some points in it so I wouldn't constantly be dying.
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Jan 15, 2020 23:23
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UnknownMercenary posted:Just gotta learn a little race theory. My first run was 3/6/1/2. I died 5 times to the tie and had to use the poo poo compressor but otherwise I did fine. I didn't have to become a racist either, the jump check is pretty easy if you take off your pants and shoes first.
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Jan 15, 2020 23:39
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My first run was 2/2/2/6 Steam thinks 30 hours though I did a bunch of stuff and replayed some bits. Once I play again, tempted to try 2/4/4/2 for some Inland Empire and Shivers. But giving up my old friends Reaction Speed and Composure is gonna sting they give so much practical lowkey advice.
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Jan 15, 2020 23:43
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If you actually internalize the thought it basically tells you that Measurehead is just full of poo poo anyway and you get +1 Conceptualization for your trouble. Also if you have high enough Interfacing you can just steal the ID card from the sleeping dockworker.
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Jan 15, 2020 23:45
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Tylana posted:There are other ways to that place. It is like half the point of Measurehead There are two ways around Meterhead Buy into his poo poo advance race theory. No. Overpower him. I couldn't even do that with my guy specced for doing that Unless there's something I haven't figured out Jumping was the only real choice. ChrisBTY fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Jan 16, 2020 |
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Jan 15, 2020 23:59
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ChrisBTY posted:There are two ways around Meterhead Don't ever trust Half-Life. Half-Life wants you to die. Instead, do an awesome 360 spin kick and knock that rear end in a top hat on his rear end
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Jan 16, 2020 00:01
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ChrisBTY posted:There are two ways around Meterhead There are a bunch of ways. some are more costly than others. I think the Scab Leader can give you a tip if you whiff a punch? And of course, you can Forget thoughts. Remembering your starting shoes and pants have -1 SavFaire each can definitely help with acrobatics instead though. I wonder if you can ever just acrobat the tree. Hmm.
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Jan 16, 2020 00:04
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Tylana posted:My first run was 2/2/2/6 Steam thinks 30 hours though I did a bunch of stuff and replayed some bits. Once I play again, tempted to try 2/4/4/2 for some Inland Empire and Shivers. But giving up my old friends Reaction Speed and Composure is gonna sting they give so much practical lowkey advice. I think it's really interesting how being low skilled silences voices really works to reinforce roleplay. Pretty much the only time Composure piped up in my 5/4/2/1 run was to panic real hard. I kept picking up negatives to authority such that I was in the negatives most of the game, and I don't think I heard from it more than once or twice, which meant I was never encouraged to get confrontational. I guess I'm kind of the opposite to you, I can hardly imagine what this game is like without Encyclopedia, Drama and Conceptualisation piping up all the goddamn time, or Inland Empire practically screaming WRONG WRONG WRONG like a backseat gamer when initially I turned down the pheremones.
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Jan 16, 2020 00:09
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I think comparing Joyce and Evrart is interesting because they're the exact opposites of what they would be in any other game: Evrart would normally be perfunctory and utilitarian, being the head of a union of dockworkers. Instead he's petty and self-interested - he'll sit you in a uncomfortable chair just to assert dominance, he'll give you a giant novelty cheque if you ask for money just to assert to other people of Martinaise that he owns you. He'll lie with a smile on his face about poo poo that you both know is horseshit, just because he can. He'll string you along for a gun that he doesn't actually have control of - leaving it in the hands of a sad old lady where it could potentially do harm. While he works for the good of the union, he also works predominantly for the good of he and his brother - never forget that he had the old head of the union killed via the Deserter. He's also atleast somewhat involved in the drug trade that Ruby is involved in, though how much is hard to say. Joyce would normally be the self interested, greedy corporate henchman - there to obstruct your path and make a buck doing it. Instead she is straight as an arrow - she has her goals and isn't afraid to leverage her position to achieve them, but she never fucks with Harry or Kim - she says what she wants and why. If you ask her for money she's more then happy to make a donation - and won't even hold it over your head in future conversations. She warns you about the tribunal way ahead of time, even though there's very little gain for her in doing so. Because ultimately she doesn't want to see Martinaise drowned in a bloodbath. I also think it's fair to say Evrart thinks hes hotter poo poo then he actually is. He probably had no real plan for the Tribunal if he even knew about it, and without Harry and Kim the hornets in a bee nest thing probably would have come to fruition.
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Jan 16, 2020 00:13
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One thing I will respect Evrart for is that he doesn't drink or use drugs, viewing them as bourgeoisie luxuries that dull the mind. As an abstainer myself, I gotta respect that. Does make it hosed up that he's allowing vodka in his dockworker'a stew though. For "morale"
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Jan 16, 2020 00:26
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Reveilled posted:I think it's really interesting how being low skilled silences voices really works to reinforce roleplay. Pretty much the only time Composure piped up in my 5/4/2/1 run was to panic real hard. I kept picking up negatives to authority such that I was in the negatives most of the game, and I don't think I heard from it more than once or twice, which meant I was never encouraged to get confrontational. I guess I'm kind of the opposite to you, I can hardly imagine what this game is like without Encyclopedia, Drama and Conceptualisation piping up all the goddamn time, or Inland Empire practically screaming WRONG WRONG WRONG like a backseat gamer when initially I turned down the pheremones. Composure is basically the Motoric version of Empathy/Drama/Half-light. It's great. Reaction Speed though, Reaction speed is so fing good at "You have to interrupt them now" or "No, you gotta wait him out." I don't think it gave more options but gave usually not-botch hints on them. I wish I got a little more Interfacing spoopiness though. But there's enough and it's good. EDIT : Regarding the vodka Evart seems to have no idea about it, at least with my skills reads on him. Obviously, maybe I got played.
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Jan 16, 2020 00:28
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Mr. Prokosch posted:Don't ever trust Half-Life. Half-Life wants you to die. Instead, do an awesome 360 spin kick and knock that rear end in a top hat on his rear end Half-Light is full of bad advice, but he's my signature skill for my current run, and letting Half-Light take the wheel is breath-taking(ly irresponsible). I did have to shelve my 1/1/1/1 run because it was TOO FREAKING QUIET IN MY SKULL.
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Jan 16, 2020 00:37
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Caufman posted:I did have to shelve my 1/1/1/1 run because it was TOO FREAKING QUIET IN MY SKULL. This is both also why I refuse to do a 1/1/1/1 run and probably why I have an anxiety disorder.
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Jan 16, 2020 00:50
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What's funny is I'm pretty sure this game has inspired me to have more conversations with myself in my own head. And you know what? It's worth it, and I'm a great conversationalist.
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Jan 16, 2020 00:54
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Kind of tangental but a youtube video from the Royal Institute about having conversations with yourself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95otBlepVHc
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Jan 16, 2020 01:00
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Regarding the vodka, the way the Claires operate, they seem much less focused on meticulous plans being executed and much more on cultivating assets and "encouraging" situations. Opportunities are a lot easier to take advantage of if you have an idea of the people they'll involve and where they'll probably be. The vodka borscht keeps the grunts around the Whirling-In-Rags in high spirits and coincedentally much more likely to even accidentally escalate matters with the mercenaries, all with plausible deniability from the boss, but it's not even Plan C for that confrontation, so it's really no skin off Evrart's nose at all for the spiking to cease. Same with things like Ruby's drug trade and trying to annex the fishing town - at worst they're momentary setbacks if halted; nothing hinges solely on preventing the current schemes from being disrupted. And it's really above your paygrade to be trying to puzzle out every single angle they may have in motion - you're just there to solve a murder case.
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Jan 16, 2020 01:03
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I think a key thing to be aware of re: Evrart is that you are not approaching him as a completely neutral outsider. You are specifically coming in as an external authority trying to assert its dominance over the union's internal "police". Like, the RCM is fully aware that the union has its own law enforcement, but basically treats it as "yeah, that doesn't count" because it's not "official" - even though the RCM themselves are a volunteer citizens force which doesn't really have any more of a claim to legitimacy than the hardies. Like sure Evrart gives you the runaround, but he's not doing it just to be a dick. He has no reason to show you respect when your entire presence there is predicated on a lack of respect for the union's own power structures.
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Jan 16, 2020 01:06
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Tylana posted:There are a bunch of ways. some are more costly than others. I think the Scab Leader can give you a tip if you whiff a punch? Jumping the ledge was the easiest. I took off my pants and shoes and did it in one jump. In my previous game I had to min-max my physical instrument and save scum and talk to the scab leader but the rolls just weren't happening with Meterhead. Also I listened to Half-Light. Whoops
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Jan 16, 2020 01:25
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Xanderkish posted:One thing I will respect Evrart for is that he doesn't drink or use drugs, viewing them as bourgeoisie luxuries that dull the mind. As an abstainer myself, I gotta respect that. You basically need to have zero comprehension or knowledge whatsoever regarding the history of alcohol and how it developed through the history of the human race, not to mention be utterly Western-centric, to think alcohol is a "bourgeoisie luxury."
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Jan 16, 2020 01:25
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The Cheshire Cat posted:I think a key thing to be aware of re: Evrart is that you are not approaching him as a completely neutral outsider. You are specifically coming in as an external authority trying to assert its dominance over the union's internal "police". Like, the RCM is fully aware that the union has its own law enforcement, but basically treats it as "yeah, that doesn't count" because it's not "official" - even though the RCM themselves are a volunteer citizens force which doesn't really have any more of a claim to legitimacy than the hardies. The RCM is the legitimate police force. They lease the right to police the international zone from the large coalition of people with lots of guns pointed at it.
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Jan 16, 2020 01:36
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ChrisBTY posted:There are two ways around Meterhead Steal the keycard from the sleeping dockworker if your interfacing is high enough. You can just use it and walk into the docks right past Measurehead.
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Jan 16, 2020 01:53
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UnknownMercenary posted:Steal the keycard from the sleeping dockworker if your interfacing is high enough. You can just use it and walk into the docks right past Measurehead. Dammit I missed that one.
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Jan 16, 2020 01:53
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Hogama posted:Regarding the vodka, the way the Claires operate, they seem much less focused on meticulous plans being executed and much more on cultivating assets and "encouraging" situations. Opportunities are a lot easier to take advantage of if you have an idea of the people they'll involve and where they'll probably be. The vodka borscht keeps the grunts around the Whirling-In-Rags in high spirits and coincedentally much more likely to even accidentally escalate matters with the mercenaries, all with plausible deniability from the boss, but it's not even Plan C for that confrontation, so it's really no skin off Evrart's nose at all for the spiking to cease. Same with things like Ruby's drug trade and trying to annex the fishing town - at worst they're momentary setbacks if halted; nothing hinges solely on preventing the current schemes from being disrupted. And it's really above your paygrade to be trying to puzzle out every single angle they may have in motion - you're just there to solve a murder case. I will say that there's Evrart, and then there's Edgar, and Edgar's the guy who seems more associated with the dirty stuff, including the assassination. It may well be that Edgar keeps Evrart ignorant of stuff like that, so that he has plausible deniability.
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Jan 16, 2020 02:02
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Lil Swamp Booger Baby posted:You basically need to have zero comprehension or knowledge whatsoever regarding the history of alcohol and how it developed through the history of the human race, not to mention be utterly Western-centric, to think alcohol is a "bourgeoisie luxury." Yes, I know that. It wasn't his views of the class associations of alcohol that I respected.
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Jan 16, 2020 02:44
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Fangz posted:I will say that there's Evrart, and then there's Edgar, and Edgar's the guy who seems more associated with the dirty stuff, including the assassination. It may well be that Edgar keeps Evrart ignorant of stuff like that, so that he has plausible deniability. Aren't you always Dealing with Edgar since he's the one with the lazy eye (which matches "Evrart's" portrait when you're talking to him)? Or am I getting the two confused. I thought the game suggested the two swap back and forth to the point where they're interchangeable
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Jan 16, 2020 03:04
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