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GrandpaPants posted:I thought SMT was already Pokémon for non-casuals. Gacha games are like Pokémon but for people with poor impulse control or budgeting skills or both. guess what e: beaten to it
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Jan 16, 2020 08:10
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ImpAtom posted:Largely because it isn't as easy as just 'pushing it.' There's a reason why precious few of these "I'm making my own Pokemon, with blackjack and hookers" succeed. The one being linked above for example is one I've heard precious few positive about except for people insisting it is the REAL GAME that NINTENDO WON'T GIVE YOU and effectively recycling the exact same arguments from Playstation All-Stars. (Remember that one? When it was going to be the REAL competitive Smash Brothers?) I feel like I"m going to get poo poo for this, but Super Smash Bros. is a fighting game. There is only so far you can take the concept. PSABR was suppose to be "Super Smash Bros, but 'competitive" but ended up making GBS threads the boat in every single aspect, especially competitiveness. In contrast, Poke'mon is a single player game with a great multiplayer component. The multiplayer component isn't what's being complained about, it's rather the single player concept. It's remained largely stagnate when there is so much they can do with the concept. Series like Monster Hunter and Zelda have pushed and reinvented themselves, yet Poke'mon hasn't.
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Jan 16, 2020 08:11
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gently caress it, Camp Belsoto are the snooty rich kids across the lake and you have one summer to help Camp Bedabest beat them in the intercamp challenge. Balance your time between pokemon battling and camp life as make new friends at Camp Bedabest.
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Jan 16, 2020 08:19
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Watching that Temtems video I was genuinely wondering about the legality of so clearly ripping off another game virtually wholesale. Having said that, the battles did look a bit more interesting/challenging and that's been my main problem with Pokemon for a long time. Once the rush of playing a new Pokemon game wears off, the battles are insanely boring and one dimensional and almost never pose any challenge. People say "yeah, it's for kids", but I wonder if that's really true? Like, how many people buying it are actually adults who grew up with it
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Jan 16, 2020 08:51
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It's a really chill game for adults, whether just collecting pokemon in the wild, or throwing their favourite mons at Gym Leaders.
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Jan 16, 2020 09:11
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punk rebel ecks posted:I feel like I"m going to get poo poo for this, but Super Smash Bros. is a fighting game. There is only so far you can take the concept. PSABR was suppose to be "Super Smash Bros, but 'competitive" but ended up making GBS threads the boat in every single aspect, especially competitiveness. I mean I could understand that argument if Temtems wasn't literally ripping off Pokemon's plot and concept. They aren't doing anything new with it worldsetting-wise. They might be doing something more interesting mechanically but how well that pans out is something we'll have to see. Saying your game is going to be more challenging is one thing, making it fun to be more challenging is another. A vast majority of the time when someone complains about a kid's franchise being too easy and they set out to make their own they either end up with a tedious slog or a poorly balanced mess because a lot of game designers (including professional ones) are not that great at making challenging games. Pokemon sidesteps this by being designed for a wide audience and basically throwing everything that sticks at the wall for multiplayer and letting the playerbase figure out a meta. Pokemon is easy but "I made Pokemon but hard!!" is a lot harder than it sounds. (Take a look at the littered remains of a hundred romhacks.) Making, for example, getting from town to town a genuine struggle sounds good on paper but in actuality a lot of people don't enjoy having to fight hard against what amounts to cannon fodder, and if you misbalance even a little then it becomes tedious and awful. Making gym battles require Real Strategy And Effort sounds cool until you realize that inherently limits what creatures you can bring with you, which hurts the "I can use my favorite Pokemon even if they're a goddamn Pikachu" aspect of the game. The best choice is probably making the game give the illusion of challenge instead of real challenge but pulling that off is hard. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 09:18 on Jan 16, 2020 |
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Jan 16, 2020 09:15
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Endorph posted:And yeah recettear was one of the first games that made people realize japan even had an indie scene and stocking my vending machine with vending machines
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Jan 16, 2020 09:16
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Speaking of Pokémon and Recettear and Atelier, there’s this GameBoy game I stumbled on called Cute Pet Shop Story. You play a girl running a pet shop for your sick grandma, and you get pets to sell by either random drop-offs or you can go out into the field and do turn-based You have to split your limited time between catching pets, running the shop (Recettear-style, it only opens when you’re at the counter), training pets to meet customer requests or for contests, and collecting and mixing herbs for medicine because any animal you take into the field can get sick and medication is American Health Care expensive. I started to play it but had to drop it because it had just too many plates to keep spinning and the movement of time felt claustrophobic. Anyway if it had an English release I think it could have been a cult favorite for sim RPG fans.
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Jan 16, 2020 13:45
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GrandpaPants posted:I thought SMT was already Pokémon for non-casuals. What is the resemblance between SMT and Pokemon If your reply starts with "well you capture creatures..." that's, like, not even close to enough for a resemblance
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Jan 16, 2020 13:54
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punk rebel ecks posted:In contrast, Poke'mon is a single player game with a great multiplayer component. The multiplayer component isn't what's being complained about, it's rather the single player concept. It's remained largely stagnate when there is so much they can do with the concept. Series like Monster Hunter and Zelda have pushed and reinvented themselves, yet Poke'mon hasn't. Well...they really kind of don't have to push anything. The games still sell extremely well. People moan about SwSh, and it's sold about six million copies so far. Just before, people moaned about S/M, and they're collectively the third best selling 3DS games. Why shake the boat, when "Mostly the same, with some relatively minor changes" still pretty much print money? The adults complain, but the primary demographic for Pokemon's single player experience is still children. Hell, the primary demographic for pretty much the entire IP, from the merchandise to the card game, is children. I'm a data point of one, but I haven't met a single child, through my own, who gives one single poo poo about the actual mechanics, the story, whatever. They just want to beat up cool monsters with their own favorite cool monsters.
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Jan 16, 2020 13:58
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Amppelix posted:Why do people say this What exactly do you think Pokemon's defining characteristic is?
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Jan 16, 2020 14:00
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Amppelix posted:Why do people say this They're mon games. Obviously they must be the same. That's really most of the reasoning.
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Jan 16, 2020 14:02
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Paperhouse posted:Watching that Temtems video I was genuinely wondering about the legality of so clearly ripping off another game virtually wholesale. pokemon, like most other nintendo games, save their challenging content for the post game so seven year olds can still see the credits
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Jan 16, 2020 14:02
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god invented difficulty options for a reason
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Jan 16, 2020 14:12
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Endorph posted:god invented difficulty options for a reason And then Pokemon made them version exclusive and requires you to beat the game first 
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Jan 16, 2020 14:14
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Kild posted:What exactly do you think Pokemon's defining characteristic is? now does that make every other game in which you capture creatures resemble pokemon? no. This is like when people compare any game that's hard to dark souls.
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Jan 16, 2020 14:18
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Besides, the SMT Pokemon is Devilkids.
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Jan 16, 2020 14:22
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Amppelix posted:Yeees, you do capture creatures in pokemon, good observation So what makes Pokemon Pokemon to you?
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Jan 16, 2020 14:25
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Kild posted:So what makes Pokemon Pokemon to you? The monster capturing in conjunction with the aesthetics of the series, and its specific mechanics (typing, split attack and defense stats, breeding, etc). SMT and Pokemon are both mon games. But beyond that, they share very little in common besides "collecting mons". Even the basics of the basics of how you recruit for your team is different.
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Jan 16, 2020 14:28
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Kild posted:And then Pokemon made them version exclusive and requires you to beat the game first loving B/W2 with its key trade poo poo what the gently caress
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Jan 16, 2020 14:31
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The most evil thing Pokemon has done was lock Spiritomb behind interacting with 32 people in the Underground (D/P/P).
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Jan 16, 2020 14:36
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AngryRobotsInc posted:and its specific mechanics (typing, split attack and defense stats, breeding, etc). SMT has all of that tho? quote:SMT and Pokemon are both mon games. But beyond that, they share very little in common besides "collecting mons". Even the basics of the basics of how you recruit for your team is different. Does DQ Monsters not count for you then? It has the aesthetic, at least imo, but you throw meat at monsters instead to befriend them instead of a Pokeball. Kild fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Jan 16, 2020 |
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Jan 16, 2020 14:38
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Kild posted:SMT has all of that tho? Yes, but differently. Fusion and Pokemon Breeding are nothing alike beside "Put two mons in a thing, get a thing", for example. Pokemon breeding, you get the same as one of the two Pokemon you kept in, they pass down their IVs and occasionally abilities and natures, and specific moves, and in the end you keep the Pokemon you used. SMT Fusion, you lose two or more demons to get another demon, with what you get being dependent on the family of the demons, or using specific combinations, demons have stats innate to them with the possibility of bonuses in some games, and depending on the game you can either pass down nothing, anything within a certain typing, or theoretically every move to any demon. AngryRobotsInc fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Jan 16, 2020 |
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Jan 16, 2020 14:40
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Kild posted:Does DQ Monsters not count for you then? It has the aesthetic, at least imo, but you throw meat at monsters instead to befriend them instead of a Pokeball.
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Jan 16, 2020 14:43
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DQM actually has more in common with SMT than Pokemon does. At least when it comes to breeding mechanics. Its move mechanics are different than either one, though. The aesthetic is similar on the overworld (like many GB and GBC RPGs), but the monster design is totally different, since it's pulling from the Akira Toriyama designs of the main series.
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Jan 16, 2020 14:46
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Amppelix posted:Why are you nitpicking these pointless details instead of understanding what people are trying to say Well what are you trying to say? AngryRobotsInc posted:DQM actually has more in common with SMT than Pokemon does. At least when it comes to breeding mechanics. Its move mechanics are different than either one, though. The aesthetic is similar on the overworld (like many GB and GBC RPGs), but the monster design is totally different, since it's pulling from the Akira Toriyama designs of the main series. Yeah that's why I brought it up since it's not much different than SMT but was clearly created to capitalize on the Pokemon craze. Digimon as well and Cyber Sleuth's basically a SMT game.
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Jan 16, 2020 14:49
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Kild posted:Yeah that's why I brought it up since it's not much different than SMT but was clearly created to capitalize on the Pokemon craze. Digimon as well and Cyber Sleuth's basically a SMT game. Digimon was created to capitalize on the Tamagotchi craze, not Pokemon.
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Jan 16, 2020 14:55
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Kild posted:Yeah that's why I brought it up since it's not much different than SMT but was clearly created to capitalize on the Pokemon craze. Digimon as well and Cyber Sleuth's basically a SMT game. Cyber Sleuth's chasing Persona more than the main SMT series. edit: Morpheus posted:From what I understand, you can't copyright game mechanics, otherwise it'd be impossible to make a game if it had even a fleeting similarity to another. Or, at least, I think you can't, but then Namco Bandai did have a copyright on minigames during loading screens, so who the heck knows. Sega also nailed Simpsons Hit and Run to the wall with a lawsuit for using an overhead directional arrow because it infringed on the same mechanic used for Crazy Taxi. Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Jan 16, 2020 |
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Jan 16, 2020 14:58
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SMT absolutely shares a lot of mechanics with Pokemon, what are you talking about. Clearly it's not 'a pokemon game', but to say that the two have almost nothing in common is pretty wild. Hell, given their release dates, it's actually that Pokemon was a more casual SMT game. Remember, in the first pokemon game, there was very little to the game itself - there was no breeding, just catching monsters, type matching, and a world to run around in and defeat gym leaders. Obviously the themes and some mechanics are different, but to dismiss the comparisons outright is weird. Paperhouse posted:Watching that Temtems video I was genuinely wondering about the legality of so clearly ripping off another game virtually wholesale. From what I understand, you can't copyright game mechanics, otherwise it'd be impossible to make a game if it had even a fleeting similarity to another. Or, at least, I think you can't, but then Namco Bandai did have a copyright on minigames during loading screens, so who the heck knows.
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Jan 16, 2020 14:58
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You can't copyright gameplay but you can have a patent on like a UI feature or something. It probably doesn't help that the judges who end up deciding these things have probably never touched a video game in their life though. I actually read a case where some Chinese company literally just copy-pasted a game's mechanics and changed only the character names and the art assets and that was ruled as perfectly legal (in the US I mean).
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Jan 16, 2020 15:25
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Morpheus posted:SMT absolutely shares a lot of mechanics with Pokemon, what are you talking about. Clearly it's not 'a pokemon game', but to say that the two have almost nothing in common is pretty wild. a crucial part of the mainline MT/SMT experience is the Wizardry inspiration, which Pokemon doesn't really even have a sliver of. even when transitioning to 3rd person in Nocturne they retained many gameplay components like sprawling, trapped dungeons that are as much an obstacle as the encounters
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Jan 16, 2020 15:37
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CYBEReris posted:a crucial part of the mainline MT/SMT experience is the Wizardry inspiration, which Pokemon doesn't really even have a sliver of. even when transitioning to 3rd person in Nocturne they retained many gameplay components like sprawling, trapped dungeons that are as much an obstacle as the encounters Mount Moon, Kanto Power Plant, Pokemon Tower, Silph Co, etc, etc.
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Jan 16, 2020 15:40
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Also Digimon and SMT demons talk making them more Friends/Comrades/Slaves and less Pets which I feel is a huge distinction. This especially matters in the anime versions.
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Jan 16, 2020 15:41
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Mount Moon, Kanto Power Plant, Pokemon Tower, Silph Co, etc, etc. it's kinda pedantic to just list these off, none of them have i.e. pitfalls that take off a big chunk of your pokemon's HP and revert an hour of progress
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Jan 16, 2020 15:47
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I thought the original argument was smt is pokemon for non casuals Of course the dungeons aren’t going to be as mean spirited
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Jan 16, 2020 15:58
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it's not about how hard the dungeons are, it's about it being a dungeon crawling game at all, which pokemon is not except for the most pedantic possible interpretation of it, in which case literally every RPG is a dungeon crawler because of how foundational Wizardry was to the genre
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Jan 16, 2020 16:02
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To be clear I think they’re the same genre but different audiences. And I also wanted to bitch that sword and shield got rid of areas you can actually get lost in and be in danger of failing Being able to access all your Pokémon when you’re out catching stuff is nice but I miss the tenseness of being an hour deep into a cave and not sure where you’re supposed to go
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Jan 16, 2020 16:02
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Erg posted:Being able to access all your Pokémon when you’re out catching stuff is nice but I miss the tenseness of being an hour deep into a cave and not sure where you’re supposed to go
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Jan 16, 2020 16:09
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Wow Temtem’s art direction is leaning pretty hard into their Pokémon but... thing. I mean the least you can do if you’re going to do a clone game is try to have your own unique visual identity. Also this Pokémon clone discussion made me investigate and boy howdy are there a lot of games with monster collection/raising as a central mechanic. I counted something like 91 unique franchises, and that’s not counting any game where the ‘monsters’ are robots.
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Jan 16, 2020 16:14
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Being accosted by Zubats and recasting Flash every two minutes is super engaging
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Jan 16, 2020 16:24
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