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FlamingLiberal posted:I wondered if this was going to end up being an issue Not much of a surprise. A lot of the big AAA games run poorly on PS4 and Xbox. The new console generation starting this year is perfect timing.
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Jan 23, 2020 21:18
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SUNKOS posted:Hitman AI seems much more simple than what was shown in Cyberpunk, the graphics are also nowhere near what Cyberpunk was showing and most importantly, Cyberpunk is an open world game whereas Hitman is level-based. Yes the levels are big but AI takes up a lot or resources. Your typical dumb AI is a huge resource drain, smarter AI that is very rarely seen in games these days takes a hell of a lot of resources and is relegated to games where there's not many of them to encounter at any one time, and AI that's actually somewhat good would be a tremendous resource hog and what CD Project Red described is the latter there. The fact it's both that and they showed streets literally full of them? If they release the game on current gen consoles they are fools. Ease up development, let staff take it slow, and start porting to next gen and just leave current gen behind with a press release apology so people angry can get their refunds or switch their preorder for the next gen version. If they can deliver what was originally shown for next gen in the launch window they will make bank, and even the people pissed enough to cancel their preorders will be falling over themselves to play it. i mean this is just nonsense. you are uncritically accepting what they told you in an advert as reality. you can do "smart" AI very cheaply. the game everyone still holds up as having incredible AI and that still genuinely has better encounter AI than modern games is FEAR and it'll run on a 2ghz p4. the difficulty isnt processing its development time. it takes an incredible amount of work to do because theres no such thing as actual "AI" in a game and there wont be with the next gen either.
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Jan 23, 2020 21:20
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Fear has a ton of scripting and they blur the edge of your disbelief by having the enemies bark a lot and follow through on what they say they are doing in the barks. The effect is amazing. Probably couldnt be done in an open world game tho where you could approach from multiple angles
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Jan 23, 2020 21:26
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Real hurthling! posted:Fear has a ton of scripting and they blur the edge of your disbelief by having the enemies bark a lot and follow through on what they say they are doing in the barks. The effect is amazing. Probably couldnt be done in an open world game tho where you could approach from multiple angles IIRC Fear's AI doesn't work at all outside FEAR because it's based on nodes and points on the maps to give the illusion that it's being clever, combined with what you said about the barks. That said it's still basically the best, FEAR owns
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Jan 23, 2020 21:29
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RBA Starblade posted:IIRC Fear's AI doesn't work at all outside FEAR because it's based on nodes and points on the maps to give the illusion that it's being clever, combined with what you said about the barks. God yes, I want more FEAR. SEAR (Second Encounter Assault Recon).
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Jan 23, 2020 21:32
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Cat Army
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its because thats the only way to do "good AI" because what we call AI isnt AI. you cant do actual literal AI in a game on any hardware. you have to do what FEAR did which is a comical amount of effort even for a game like FEAR let alone anything open world, so everyone instead just does very basic stuff that mostly works fine but you sometimes can spot the cracks and if you believed for a second cyberpunk would genuinely be different i have a bridge to sell you called "radiant AI"
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Jan 23, 2020 21:32
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Real hurthling! posted:Fear has a ton of scripting and they blur the edge of your disbelief by having the enemies bark a lot and follow through on what they say they are doing in the barks. The effect is amazing. Probably couldnt be done in an open world game tho where you could approach from multiple angles Fooling people into thinking AI is very good by any means necessary (including lying) will always be better than making AI actually good, and as soon as everyone accepts this, and work at it just as hard at it as trying to make every guard into Big Blue, games are gonna be real cool and fun.
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Jan 23, 2020 21:50
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Stux posted:most downgrades come from them being straight up not real. they might be "real" in that they are running in engine on hardware, but they are not practical for that team to do for the entire game. the dark souls ones especially because the games are already generally worse looking than bigger titles, and even with the early marketing shots it wasnt spectacular, its just not a very big team or budget compared to much larger AAA games. cyberpunk in particular comes from a studio with awful management. t heyve already been crunching and theyve said outright this will be 5 months of crunch from the delay. crunch ruins productivity but its much easier to say "oh yeah itsjust the xbox sucks lol" than "we have mismanaged our dev team and to solve it we will continue to mismanage them for another 5 months in the hope we will get blood from a stone". in the vast majority of cases the downgrades exist because they did a best case for marketing shots, and then when it came time to realistically look at how much time it will take to make those assets for the entire game, it was considered not viable. Disagree regarding the original gameplay reveal for Dark Souls 2, that was genuinely impressive as hell for last gen hardware. Regarding Cyberpunk I actually think it's both. There is definitely some awful management and it's not at all right that they collect stupid wages while the real talent are treated like slaves, but I also wouldn't be surprised if the Xbox comments were true as well. Microsoft used that ES/ED RAM or whatever it's called for the Xbox One because it worked great on Xbox 360. The problem was the motherboard design meant they had to use a limited amount on the One that while theoretically being a clever design decision that's easy for devs to utilize, they just couldn't fit enough silicon on the board and it's caused problems. It's funny you mention Uncharted 4 as well because the original reveal (not gameplay but they said to expect the game to look that good) ended up being BS, it looked nowhere near that good. I'm referring to the first original footage of Drake waking up on a shore at night and walking into a dark jungle. The funny thing however is when they did show something real (that phenomenal car chase section through Madagascar) they showed the best part of the game and nothing else in there really came close (for the spectacle that you'd expect from the series, that is). It wasn't too much of a jump down overall however, not like Uncharted 3 where people had the side-by-side "What the gently caress did you do to the graphics?!" comparisons. I think the most interesting thing that Naughty Dog has ever done with pre-release footage is fake-outs, with the trailer for The Last of Us which showed footage of Joel turning. I thought that was a really good use of marketing because at that point they were showing the (pretty much) finished product, but played with viewers so that they couldn't guess what would really happen. Same thing with Part 2 and the original CGI trailer where people thought Joel wasn't real, then we see actual gameplay (doesn't look as good unfortunately but the pattern is established now) and we're led to believe Ellie's love interest is killed but we don't know for sure, it could be another fake-out like the first game. Then we see more gameplay and Joel actually is alive and around in the game. ND aren't technical wizards and they've had their downgrades too, but I do like that they take a very unique approach to marketing where they mislead their audience and fans but it's not malicious, it's just to keep people guessing and ensure they get surprised, which I think is cool.
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Jan 23, 2020 22:04
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Is there anyway to improve the menu performance on the Xbox One S without having to do a hard reset like every 2 days? I feel like it's getting worse and worse and I don't even really play games on the stupid thing nowadays
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Jan 23, 2020 23:09
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SUNKOS posted:Disagree regarding the original gameplay reveal for Dark Souls 2, that was genuinely impressive as hell for last gen hardware. Regarding Cyberpunk I actually think it's both. There is definitely some awful management and it's not at all right that they collect stupid wages while the real talent are treated like slaves, but I also wouldn't be surprised if the Xbox comments were true as well. Microsoft used that ES/ED RAM or whatever it's called for the Xbox One because it worked great on Xbox 360. The problem was the motherboard design meant they had to use a limited amount on the One that while theoretically being a clever design decision that's easy for devs to utilize, they just couldn't fit enough silicon on the board and it's caused problems. the only thing with uc4 was the frame rate and i think some details like how the sand moved, and the full game was actually better looking than the other pre-release material and demos. it was the game most held up as nonsense and its the only one that wasnt. i mean the main issue with the esram is frame buffer but devs have long since used dynamic res for xbone releases so its not much of an issue in the grand scheme of things. cdpr also said the witcher 3 was held back by ps4 and xbox one, and then managed a switch port which works remarkably well. its their go to complaint to paper over management issues.
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Jan 23, 2020 23:19
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Stux posted:it was the game most held up as nonsense and its the only one that wasnt. Do you mean this gen? Because if not I would hand off that award to that one Killzone trailer/game that everyone said was impossible, then showed up as a real-time demo the next year and arrived more or less looking correct.
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Jan 23, 2020 23:24
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Stux posted:the only thing with uc4 was the frame rate and i think some details like how the sand moved, and the full game was actually better looking than the other pre-release material and demos. it was the game most held up as nonsense and its the only one that wasnt. Eh, the jungle sections looked nowhere near as good as that original night video, nor did Drake. What bugged me most though was in the jungle sections and using stealth, they used this effect where a lot of foliage would go like... checkerboarded and semi-transparent? It was really distracting and it was in the pre-release gameplay (starts with Nate rock climbing then fighting mercs to show off grass stealth) and I thought they'd have fixed it for release but nope. Looks so bad. Never noticed framerate issues or anything with sand personally, in fact I think the final area with the house was the nicest-looking part of the game, but man do I have a lot of complaints about that game, they screwed up so much it's ridiculous. Intel&Sebastian posted:Do you mean this gen? Because if not I would hand off that award to that one Killzone trailer/game that everyone said was impossible, then showed up as a real-time demo the next year and arrived more or less looking correct. Killzone 2. The final game actually looked better than what they showed beforehand, it was crazy but they pulled it off. There was a side-by-side and it's astonishing how much they improved things. That and the third game were really good. I think the only thing that stood out as kinda bad was the firing effect for the flamethrower and how it came out the gun, but the way it lit up the environment and people was great. Also, the absurdly over-the-top death screams were hilarious.
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Jan 24, 2020 00:02
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SUNKOS posted:they used this effect where a lot of foliage would go like... checkerboarded and semi-transparent? This happens in so many games. It's not a new thing.
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Jan 24, 2020 00:03
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I can't think of any other games it happens in? I mean there's plenty of games that make walls transparent when the player camera is behind them for example, but I've never seen a game do something like that before and it's just hideous.
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Jan 24, 2020 00:08
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RBA Starblade posted:IIRC Fear's AI doesn't work at all outside FEAR because it's based on nodes and points on the maps to give the illusion that it's being clever, combined with what you said about the barks. That's how a lot of game AI works. Prebaked node maps they're allowed to use; it's unfeasible to use in open world games (though some do or at least give "optimal" paths, such as when guards in Assassin's Creed games chase you up rooftops; they often pick specific parts of buildings to go up because the AI pathing is telling them it's a valid one). Placing large objects in said path is sometimes enough to cause a system like that to go haywire. Hitman's AI is fairly good but let's not forget that IO has been doing these games for decades now and they know every trick in the book when it comes to cheating on AI behavior. You'll often see multiple NPCs fall into the same behavioral patterns or investigate things in the same manner, sometimes "grouping" up to do so because they don't communicate with one another very much. In the large crowd scenes (such as the Paris fashion show) most of the NPCs are faked and they only really have two states: Idle partygoers with canned animations or running out of the building if a panic mode happens. The paper on FEAR's AI is available to read here - it's great how much it does with so little. It actually has it's origins in a planning system from the 1970s. By the way, where is that guy now, you ask? He founded his own company which then got bought by Drift (ever heard of SalesForce? they're like that) making what I assume are website chatbots.  At least it pays well.
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Jan 24, 2020 05:32
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I hope those chatbots post flipping over table emojis and swear
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Jan 24, 2020 05:35
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Barudak posted:I hope those chatbots post flipping over table emojis and swear "POSTING!" "SHUT THE gently caress UP"
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Jan 24, 2020 05:59
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Fooling people into thinking AI is very good by any means necessary (including lying) will always be better than making AI actually good, and as soon as everyone accepts this, and work at it just as hard at it as trying to make every guard into Big Blue, games are gonna be real cool and fun. Is trivial to make good AI that hit 100% of the shots. Part of what make a game good is making the AI bad. I think AI in games is less about making the machine good at playing the game and more about giving a fun lifelike challenge. It would also be trivial to code a fighting game that will always parry your attack .. not very fun to play a fight game where is imposible to hit your foe.
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Jan 24, 2020 08:45
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SUNKOS posted:I can't think of any other games it happens in? I mean there's plenty of games that make walls transparent when the player camera is behind them for example, but I've never seen a game do something like that before and it's just hideous. Mario Galaxy very prominently does it, too.
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Jan 24, 2020 18:00
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Off the top of my head, Witcher 3, Death Stranding
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Jan 24, 2020 18:22
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Tei posted:Is trivial to make good AI that hit 100% of the shots. Part of what make a game good is making the AI bad. We appear to be agreeing vehemently? When I say good I don't mean like Geese Howard fighting game AI I mean good as in fun to play against. Early Halos have good AI. They're a challenge and feel like they're doing tactical stuff and trying to not die. It feels like a small accomplishment when you kill stuff that's not a grunt. And even the grunts do fun stuff to make them more than just easy kills.
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Jan 24, 2020 18:23
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Tei posted:Is trivial to make good AI that hit 100% of the shots. Part of what make a game good is making the AI bad. It's actually fun to explore the AI of some fighting games and how they work, what their priorities are, how they can tell what's going on (input reading bastards), the ways they're allowed to cheat and do things that aren't possible for human players (e.g. throwing out charge moves instantly, being able to throw or avoid damage in circumstances that don't happen with human players etc.) It's also really interesting to see what cheese techniques there are with different game AI, like the first three major Mortal Kombat games have completely different cheese strategies, and all of them have fairly consistent strategies where you can bait the opponent to do something they're programmed to think is safe or an unmissable move, but that you can actually counter-punish.
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Jan 24, 2020 18:59
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univbee posted:It's actually fun to explore the AI of some fighting games and how they work, what their priorities are, how they can tell what's going on (input reading bastards), the ways they're allowed to cheat and do things that aren't possible for human players (e.g. throwing out charge moves instantly, being able to throw or avoid damage in circumstances that don't happen with human players etc.) This is why saltybet.com is actually the best game of all time
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Jan 24, 2020 19:05
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Intel&Sebastian posted:This is why saltybet.com is actually the best game of all time 
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Jan 24, 2020 19:20
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univbee posted:It's actually fun to explore the AI of some fighting games and how they work, what their priorities are, how they can tell what's going on (input reading bastards), the ways they're allowed to cheat and do things that aren't possible for human players (e.g. throwing out charge moves instantly, being able to throw or avoid damage in circumstances that don't happen with human players etc.) My old roommate played mk by literally just learning the cpu rules, and then dominating it. Like oh hey blocking and short kicking gets them to attack. He was all around crazy good at the game.
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Jan 24, 2020 19:46
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bushisms.txt posted:My old roommate played mk by literally just learning the cpu rules, and then dominating it. Like oh hey blocking and short kicking gets them to attack. He was all around crazy good at the game. Cheesing the MK AI is actually pretty easy and involves a lot less steps than you'd think. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXfGdzWbIHY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAiVCPGdK7Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkPBBIksqmM
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Jan 24, 2020 21:00
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Early Halos have good AI. They're a challenge and feel like they're doing tactical stuff and trying to not die. It feels like a small accomplishment when you kill stuff that's not a grunt. And even the grunts do fun stuff to make them more than just easy kills. Yeah, those and Destiny, although I think they toned it down for the Destiny games due to open world and a greater amount of enemies on screen so they scaled down and upped enemy variety. By most standards their AI would be considered reasonably okay, but it's elevated so far above the competition because they have multiple attacks for enemies, the ability for them to run and hide and also dodge, the kind of extremely basic and simply things that are not present in 99% of shooters. That's part of the magic of their combat engine, the other being that the gunplay is just really satisfying. The only developer I can think of that puts the same effort into enemy AI is From Software, and even then that's mostly just for bosses or minibosses, which coincidentally are Bungie's weakness.
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Jan 25, 2020 01:54
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I got accepted into the Microsoft Flight Simulator alpha whenever that starts.
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Jan 25, 2020 06:51
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Cojawfee posted:I got accepted into the Microsoft Flight Simulator alpha whenever that starts.
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Jan 25, 2020 07:00
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Cojawfee posted:I got accepted into the Microsoft Flight Simulator alpha whenever that starts. I am excited for you. Do you have a Xbox One X?
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Jan 25, 2020 09:32
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Microsoft Flight Simulator looks insane. I’m calling the footage we’ve seen so far an absolute pipe dream until we see it running on consoles and pulling that level of detail. If we are mad at cyberpunk for downgrading, just you wait for this one to come out lmao.
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Jan 25, 2020 19:05
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Waiting for an alpha invite while people in this forum are getting in is a sick joke
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Jan 25, 2020 19:49
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Yeah guys ethanol needs this game, please consider giving him your code if you arent super interested. Think of it as keeping him away from posting
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Jan 25, 2020 20:04
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Blind Rasputin posted:Microsoft Flight Simulator looks insane. I’m calling the footage we’ve seen so far an absolute pipe dream until we see it running on consoles and pulling that level of detail. If we are mad at cyberpunk for downgrading, just you wait for this one to come out lmao. AFAIK they've been really open that it's being developed very much as a PC game first and foremost, while an Xbox version will only be released later and will have a much less impressive visual fidelity.
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Jan 25, 2020 20:10
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Tei posted:I am excited for you. Do you have a Xbox One X? I think I signed up for PC. I only have a regular xbone. But if anyone is willing to donate an X to me, I'll see what I can do.
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Jan 25, 2020 21:11
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Real hurthling! posted:Yeah guys ethanol needs this game, please consider giving him your code if you arent super interested. Think of it as keeping him away from posting I don’t think it’s even codes it’s a lottery tied to your login and it selects using algorithm with survey questions, your dxdiag, and an rng. The digital future
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Jan 25, 2020 21:59
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DariusLikewise posted:Is there anyway to improve the menu performance on the Xbox One S without having to do a hard reset like every 2 days? I feel like it's getting worse and worse and I don't even really play games on the stupid thing nowadays Sign up for the insider update ( the fast ring, whatever its called) and you get the new dashboard menu which is faster.
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Jan 26, 2020 00:55
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Well hell, finally got around to stack up months then did the $1 deal for the pass. Felt like a drat accountant figuring the poo poo out.
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Jan 31, 2020 20:38
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C-Bangin' it 
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Childrens of Morta is susprising fun for what it is. This one and the goose game paid for the game pass this month 
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Feb 1, 2020 08:10
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This could be a beta update thing, but there's a UI change in "My Games & Apps" There's no longer a "ready to install" link at the top of the Games and Apps pages. Where they used to separately list subscriptions (above where it would have the storage meter in the bottom left) there is now instead a "Full Library" link which has up to 5 subsections: one for "All owned games", one for "All owned apps", and then one for each subscription plan you're part of. I think there are some changes to the front page, too. univbee fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Feb 1, 2020 |
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Feb 1, 2020 14:37
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