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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Taiwan is a US puppet. Hong Komg is a Uk puppet. Which puppet holds more weight on the world stage? Taiwan. Where do all these CCPlainers come from? I can rule out native english speaking countries.
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Jan 25, 2020 00:45
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Taiwan is a US puppet. Hong Komg is a Uk puppet. Which puppet holds more weight on the world stage? Taiwan. Uh define puppet? We don't even have official diplomatic relations with Taiwan. And how is HK a US puppet? Let me guess, because they had protests so it must be that dastardly CIA stirring up trouble right? Because who would ever willingly protest the rule of the benevolent Chinese Communist Party? /S
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Jan 25, 2020 00:53
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Charliegrs posted:Uh define puppet? We don't even have official diplomatic relations with Taiwan. And how is HK a US puppet? Let me guess, because they had protests so it must be that dastardly CIA stirring up trouble right? Because who would ever willingly protest the rule of the benevolent Chinese Communist Party? /S Ive been given poo poo for effortless shitposting but i think most people will forgive you for not giving "Taiwan is puppet US" the benefit of the doubt.
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Jan 25, 2020 01:07
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I am using Puppet extremely loosely. What i mean is, The US will go to arms to protect taiwan. If they didnt have our handshake suppprt by parking carriers on friendly hello missions theyd be annexed by now. Hong Kong is a former commonwealth asset and is still used as a transit point for money. This isnt a debatable thing. The original post doubted china would benf at the knee to HK, i think this is bullshit as they arent bending at the knee at all this is a political chess piece being moved by the powerful player called London Banks. China cant straigjt up invade HK or clamp dissent like Tianmen because they arent just facing HK.
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Jan 25, 2020 02:11
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Death toll jumps from 26 to 41 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/01/24/world/asia/china-coronavirus.amp.html
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Jan 25, 2020 02:12
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:I am using Puppet extremely loosely. What i mean is, The US will go to arms to protect taiwan. If they didnt have our handshake suppprt by parking carriers on friendly hello missions theyd be annexed by now. Thanks for clarifying, because what you said in the first paragraph here sounds pretty accurate, whereas I deleted a borderline effortpost earlier taking issue with the other version because life's too short. As for the last part here, I'd suggest that one big reason China doesn't just straight up invade HK is because if they flagrantly violate their promises to respect the one country two systems policy, it makes all the promises they have offered and will offer Taiwan about substantial autonomy transparent bullshit too. Even without the US standing in the way (and I have doubts about how much we'd do beyond symbolic sanctions as China's power is far, far greater than it was when Clinton sailed a carrier into the Taiwan Strait to send a signal in the 90's), capturing Taiwan via a military invasion is a lot riskier and more costly than coming to an agreement. I haven't kept up to date on what terms they're offering these days, but when I was representing China at a Model UN in college, I was amazed at how generous the terms were on paper. That loses most of its value if they just crush Hong Kong now though.
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Jan 25, 2020 02:28
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Jan 25, 2020 02:39
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:I am using Puppet extremely loosely. What i mean is, The US will go to arms to protect taiwan. If they didnt have our handshake suppprt by parking carriers on friendly hello missions theyd be annexed by now. That doesnt change the fact that Taiwan is a successful democracy of chinese people. The post I was quoting said it was culturally impossible for the chinese to be democratic. Also "the PRC would just annex them anyway" isnt a great argument for the PRC jesus why am i trying
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Jan 25, 2020 02:46
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The entire Taiwan island believe US will defend Taiwan in a mainland invasion. Just a reminder that US didn't send any troop when Russia invaded eastern Ukraine.
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Jan 25, 2020 03:03
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stephenthinkpad posted:... Just a reminder that US didn't send any troop when Russia invaded eastern Ukraine. You should maybe invest in a geography course first, then provide us with insightful thoughts.
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Jan 25, 2020 05:20
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Sending 11 aircraft carriers through Istanbul would probably not end well for anyone.
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Jan 25, 2020 05:36
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stephenthinkpad posted:The entire Taiwan island believe US will defend Taiwan in a mainland invasion. Just a reminder that US didn't send any troop when Russia invaded eastern Ukraine. As far as I know, we've never had an agreement with Ukraine to defend them should Russia invade. On the other hand, I think our agreement with Taiwan is vague enough to where we could wiggle out of defending them should China invade. And that's what I think we would do.
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Jan 25, 2020 07:18
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Charliegrs posted:As far as I know, we've never had an agreement with Ukraine to defend them should Russia invade. Is that why most of the Navy does laps between the south china sea and the taiwan strait? Also a bad way to lose some weapon sales.
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Jan 25, 2020 07:39
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Wuss out of the worlds easiest war win against china when you spend 40% of your GDP on the military doesnt sound plausible. Not to mention not defending Taiwan you could kiss the ROK goodbye. Then all your assets in asia are Japan and a very clingy Vietnam
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Jan 25, 2020 07:52
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Despera posted:Wuss out of the worlds easiest war win against china when you spend 40% of your GDP on the military doesnt sound plausible. Not to mention not defending Taiwan you could kiss the ROK goodbye. Then all your assets in asia are Japan and a very clingy Vietnam Do you have brain damage?
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Jan 25, 2020 08:08
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Despera posted:Wuss out of the worlds easiest war win against china when you spend 40% of your GDP on the military doesnt sound plausible. Not to mention not defending Taiwan you could kiss the ROK goodbye. Then all your assets in asia are Japan and a very clingy Vietnam All of this is immaterial when fully 50% of the world's computer chips are manufactured in Taiwan. Including our military ones. The US literally cannot afford to lose Taiwan. It'll defend it. Vigorously.
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Jan 25, 2020 08:11
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Oracle posted:All of this is immaterial when fully 50% of the world's computer chips are manufactured in Taiwan. Including our military ones. Losing South Korea would be worse
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Jan 25, 2020 08:15
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fart simpson posted:Do you have brain damage? Seconded
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Jan 25, 2020 08:47
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Oracle posted:All of this is immaterial when fully 50% of the world's computer chips are manufactured in Taiwan. Including our military ones. Yeah, your link title says US want TSMC move some (more) fab to the US. Why do you think that is? Which do you think is cheaper? Bully TSMC into fabbing more chips in the US for free, or spend billions fighting a war with China where China has home filed advantage? Also, US don't need to make chips in Taiwan, they can make them in Intel fab with slightly highly cost.
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Jan 25, 2020 09:01
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stephenthinkpad posted:Yeah, your link title says US want TSMC move some (more) fab to the US. Why do you think that is? Which do you think is cheaper? Bully TSMC into fabbing more chips in the US for free, or spend billions fighting a war with China where China has home filed advantage? Um I dont think you understand what "home filed advantage" is. Also spending billions fighting a war, is what in the United States is called a tuesday Despera fucked around with this message at 09:18 on Jan 25, 2020 |
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Jan 25, 2020 09:12
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stephenthinkpad posted:The entire Taiwan island believe US will defend Taiwan in a mainland invasion. Just a reminder that US didn't send any troop when Russia invaded eastern Ukraine. The united states has a treaty to defend Taiwan iirc. There was never any such treaty with Ukraine and Ukraine was never a formal US ally. Also this isn’t quoting anyone directly but jesus loving christ just because the population of a territory / island rejects the benevolent colonialism of the CCP doesn’t suddenly make them western puppets. Heaven forbid people have an agency for how they would like to be governed. Solaris 2.0 fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Jan 25, 2020 |
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Jan 25, 2020 15:40
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Despera posted:That doesnt change the fact that Taiwan is a successful democracy of chinese people. The post I was quoting said it was culturally impossible for the chinese to be democratic. Also "the PRC would just annex them anyway" isnt a great argument for the PRC Not sure but there may have been some other factors involved in Taiwan's 40-ish year transition from a one-party military dictatorship to a democracy. Factors like a vastly reduced population compared to KMT rule over mainland China, or some kind of influence from Dutch, Japanese, and US culture specific to Taiwan's history. Hmmmm
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Jan 25, 2020 15:54
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Solaris 2.0 posted:The united states has a treaty to defend Taiwan iirc. It's not that clear: (from Wikipedia) "The Taiwan Relations Act does not guarantee the USA will intervene militarily if the PRC attacks or invades Taiwan nor does it relinquish it, as its primary purpose is to ensure the US's Taiwan policy will not be changed unilaterally by the president and ensure any decision to defend Taiwan will be made with the consent of Congress. The act states that "the United States will make available to Taiwan such defense articles and defense services in such quantity as may be necessary to enable Taiwan to maintain a sufficient self-defense capabilities". However, the decision about the nature and quantity of defense services that America will provide to Taiwan is to be determined by the President and Congress. America's policy has been called "strategic ambiguity" and it is designed to dissuade Taiwan from a unilateral declaration of independence, and to dissuade the PRC from unilaterally unifying Taiwan with the PRC." IMO the odds of the US intervening directly have obviously been dropping significantly as China's gotten stronger. It's still not worth the risk for China any time soon, but at some point it won't be remotely worth the risk for the US to even try intervening if China does do something, because losing a war in the Pacific would be an even bigger embarrassment than sitting by and watching while China invades. Coming up with some face saving bullshit about how we haven't recognized Taiwan as a sovereign state in decades but we still do recognize the independence of our allies and would come to their defense would leave us in a better position diplomatically in the region than China straight up beating us and proving we can't defend our allies in the future, though obviously neither scenario is ideal. Taiwan's best options were probably declaring independence in the 90's (or sooner), or starting a process of negotiating the best terms they could get while they had maximum leverage, but the more time that passes, the worse their options are going to get. Even if China doesn't straight up invade, a blockade at some point in the future would be ruinous. The wild card option is for Taiwan to develop a nuclear capability and guarantee their own independence, but obviously that's risky too. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Jan 25, 2020 |
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Jan 25, 2020 16:36
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I was all set to dismiss the wuhan coronavirus thing as just another example of sinophobic weirdness over tepid poo poo, then I see pictures of the literal entire city of wuhan under lockdown and 11 others under quarantine affecting at minimum 33 million people, travel restrictions are put in place, international travel restrictions and cancellation of tours, and Xi is calling it a 'grave threat,' setting the foundation for criticism of hubei province leaders for insufficient action leading to wherever this is going, etc. So, hey! I guess this is a thing.
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Jan 25, 2020 17:29
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It's very surprising that even with the quarantine cases are still spreading and springing up super quickly. Also Taiwan is a free country and has self-ruled as long as (current) China has, implying otherwise is blood and soil nationalism.
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Jan 25, 2020 18:38
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My favorite thing is the surround towns physically dumping tons of dirt on the road and shut down the road from Wuhan.
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Jan 25, 2020 18:39
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Sinteres posted:The wild card option is for Taiwan to develop a nuclear capability and guarantee their own independence, but obviously that's risky too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction Sorry for Wikipedia link. It's difficult for me to believe Taiwan would have continued pursuing nuclear capability up to the present day. I doubt any ongoing program or resulting weapons could be concealed from the mainland at this point, given greatly increased cross-straits travel, continuing Chinese espionage, etc. The mainland would see it as a serious provocation and if it were happening, I think there would have been some visible response by now.
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Jan 25, 2020 18:45
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Grapplejack posted:It's very surprising that even with the quarantine cases are still spreading and springing up super quickly. Is there some actual discussion ongoing anywhere about it?
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Jan 25, 2020 18:48
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MiddleOne posted:Is there some actual discussion ongoing anywhere about it? News sites have the cases up to 1300 or so despite the quarantine and it's been sighted abroad and in other parts of China. Xi has also convened a group to deal with it. It especially doesn't help that the virus has a two week incubation period where you show no symptoms so who knows how far it's spread at this point.
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Jan 25, 2020 19:05
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It has to be more unreported cases inside Wuhan, because they ran out of testing kits. So people who were infected later could not be confirmed by the hospitals. And the hospital beds are full anyway. I had read more than one story of people got turn down by the multiple hospitals and the young men just stay home and tough it out, the older folks go to hospital every night and get a shot.
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Jan 25, 2020 19:15
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There's not a whole ton of verified reporting on it but the tone of it indicates that Xi is responding to it with optics about why this danger is one of many dangers that highlights the importance of that there's a few dudes in charge of everything, and that it highlights the need for harmony in governance, so definitely don't question the few dudes in question, etc. Trump has also assured everything's totally under control, which is ironically the first thing that got me wondering if this was actually going to go huge after all
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Jan 25, 2020 20:53
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tbf the literal worst way to deal with a burgeoning health crisis is to tell everyone that it is not under control
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Jan 25, 2020 22:16
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Sampatrick posted:tbf the literal worst way to deal with a burgeoning health crisis is to tell everyone that it is not under control thus leading to tension in the Trump administration between "tell everyone things are going great because we always lie" and "tell everyone they're all going to die because we always make the worst possible decision"
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Jan 25, 2020 22:18
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Sampatrick posted:tbf the literal worst way to deal with a burgeoning health crisis is to tell everyone that it is not under control On the other hand, ham-fisted mass quarantines are a great way to get a lot of people to dislike the authorities, making it more likely that the virus will spread as people find ways to flaunt it under the radar.
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Jan 25, 2020 22:24
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Kavros posted:There's not a whole ton of verified reporting on it but the tone of it indicates that Xi is responding to it with optics about why this danger is one of many dangers that highlights the importance of that there's a few dudes in charge of everything, and that it highlights the need for harmony in governance, so definitely don't question the few dudes in question, etc. Definitely love how cagey China is still being with information despite the international expertise mostly being on side of very alarmed and mildly panicked. Not alarming at all. Fojar38 posted:On the other hand, ham-fisted mass quarantines are a great way to get a lot of people to dislike the authorities, making it more likely that the virus will spread as people find ways to flaunt it under the radar. There's already confirmed cases of infected people skipping the quarantine by chomping down on fever inhibitors so arguably the problem is that current quarantines are not nearly strict enough.
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Jan 25, 2020 22:26
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Fojar38 posted:On the other hand, ham-fisted mass quarantines are a great way to get a lot of people to dislike the authorities, making it more likely that the virus will spread as people find ways to flaunt it under the radar. which is different from if there was no quarantine because then people definitely would be travelling... less? no one really expects for a quarantine to be absolutely effective, they expect for a quarantine to reduce the amount of travel which it does. if the chinese government was more clear about how dire the situation is, you are much more likely to end up with even more severe degrees of panic and probably mass exodus which uh clearly is the exact opposite of what you want to happen. the answer to any epidemic crisis is always to act like everything is under control because doing anything else will cause even more severe panic and massively exacerbate the problem for infectious diseases.
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Jan 25, 2020 22:34
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MiddleOne posted:There's already confirmed cases of infected people skipping the quarantine by chomping down on fever inhibitors so arguably the problem is that current quarantines are not nearly strict enough. Even if 100% of people were barred from entering or leaving the quarantine area and the strategy was literally to just let the city die in order to contain the virus people would still find ways out, especially in China where official corruption is rampant and well-known. You don't handle outbreaks by making the public perceive the authorities as an enemy.
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Jan 25, 2020 22:43
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I feel like y'all are somewhat missing the point of a quarantine. While the idealized goal would be to fully stop any transit to and from a location, the reality of it from a policy perspective is that you are trying to reduce the amount of transit. Nobody thinks that a quarantine will be an impenetrable wall because of course that is unrealistic. It's the same concept as the Great Fire Wall. It doesn't actually stop traffic per se, it just makes it more difficult and so it reduces traffic. The actual goal is to slow down the spread of coronavirus and so hopefully buy time to develop a vaccine or better ways to treat it. There's not really any other feasible way to deal with an epidemic infection. You can't stop it, you can just do everything you can to slow it down.
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Jan 25, 2020 22:49
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Not gonna jump on board the several advance lines of Conspiracy Train (choo choo) but honestly I am forced to admit that China's governmental response necessarily indicates that it worries the gently caress out of them? more than what information we have would suggest?? Otherwise, imo, they wouldn't already be looking for a scapegoat. The other option which I'm more hoping for is that they are using it as a proxy issue to push various trial balloons for enforcement methods and extremely authoritarian edicts. Disunity is easily censurable in the face of a concerning epidemic, etc
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Jan 25, 2020 22:51
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Quarantines are a pretty essential requirement to handle pandemics I don't know what Fojar is getting at.
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Jan 25, 2020 23:03
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