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Holy poo poo, that was an episode that did not stop.  I feel like the Master has gone back and changed something fundamental in Gallifrey’s past, and this is an entirely different Doctor that’s been thrown up by the change in history. I feel like we’re meant to infer she’s much younger with her TARDIS being closer to original Round Things configuration (also the actual police box shell looked much smaller with a 60s-style lamp) 
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Jan 26, 2020 23:49
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There are a lot of ways that this could so that I could be fine with, some more preferable than others: 1. Alternate reality shenanigans. 2. Go all in on one of the branch Doctors, i.e. Valeyard, Metacrisis, etc.. If Chibs can somehow bring sense and order to the Valeyard, the Watcher, etc., he'll have my utmost respect. 3. Pre-Hartnell Doctors. I prefer this one the least, and I'm not really sure it's making much sense with what we're given. Main point being the phone box, rather than the default Tardis look. I wonder if it could be a "broken time" issue. Something in the old days of Gallifrey forced them to "reset" everything, so time rewound and gave them all a do over. Some side effect was that the Doctor lived a completely different life. So while technically it *is* pre-Hartnell, it's from an alternate take of the timeline. This Doctor is just a brief window into that time. Bonus if at the end of all this, Ruth Doctor turns into The Watcher. That backstory for that being doesn't really track with the Fourth Doctor having some sense of what it was, but it could still work.
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Jan 26, 2020 23:50
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I'm gonna guess "Time War shenanigans"
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Jan 27, 2020 00:12
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I'll stand up in defense of the Watcher, which I think is already a complete storyline and a well put together one. The 3rd Doctor meets an old mentor disguised as a Buddhist monk, and learns that he has been able to project a physical manifestation of his own future regenerated self. When the old monk dies, he regenerates into this person. Years later, the 4th Doctor keeps seeing a mysterious figure watching him, and eventually goes and confronts him. He comes back and offers no explanation for who/what he was, but seems okay with them. When he is dying later in that story he assures them the moment has been prepared for. The Watcher arrives, joins with the Doctor and together they regenerate into the 5th Doctor. The implication I think is pretty strongly that the Doctor - who in that entire final season seems burned out/aware that death is on the horizon - had been subconsciously projecting a rough approximation of his own future self in the same way his old mentor had. Now the actual reason for the Doctor looking that way is down to Baker himself being burned out, tired of the role and knowing that the showrunners were keen to move on without him, but it fits in nicely in-character for him to be acting that way as well given his recent visit to E-Space and the awareness of entropy as an always impending threat. As for the Valeyard, well it's straight up said he's the physical manifestation of the Doctor's negative emotions discarded between later regenerations (presumably 10-11 or 11-12, but maybe the War Doctor to 9) who jumps back in the Doctor's timeline to try and change time and steal the potential regenerations he had left for himself. I did like that a potential alternate origin was made with the Dream Lord in Amy's Choice though.
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Jan 27, 2020 00:13
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Goddamn. This episode was hyped up as having some huge twist and I was sure it wouldn't live up to it, but how wrong I was. I'd thought just bringing Jack back would be enough to satisfy that, but it kept on ramping up. I was guessing Ruth would be the Master too, naturally, and thought having multiple different Masters piling up in a season would be a fun idea. Since her name began with R and she had a necklace with R on it, I'd also guessed the Rani or Romana as possibilities. I would have preferred any of those options to where it actually went, but hopefully this'll pay off... I don't think a pre-Hartnell iteration seems likely, given the Doctor had no idea what was going on. Although I did flash back to Capaldi's passing line in World Enough and Time about "the Master was a man back then, and I think I was too" as a possible thing Chibnall might be running with. The warlike Time Lords and the medal business made me think Time War, but I can't imagine we'd get something so derivative as another super-secret War Doctor regeneration. I'm guessing it's something involving alternate potential timelines smashing together; maybe specifically to do with the "timeless" part of the Timeless Child. I also want to say that Jodie was giving some top-tier Doctoring throughout the episode. She's been smashing it all series.
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Jan 27, 2020 01:08
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Voting Floater posted:I also want to say that Jodie was giving some top-tier Doctoring throughout the episode. She's been smashing it all series. For any issues I've had with this new season so far, Whittaker continues to absolutely kill it as the Doctor 
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Jan 27, 2020 01:17
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Yeah I'm sceptical about where this might be going, but the episode was good as I was watching it. I'll wait and see if they pull off the conclusion. Definitely feels like an alternative Doctor and not a proper one with the screwdriver thing and the horn removal. With Gallifrey still being apparently around, and the other time lady also seeming militaristic I'm definitely leaning to an alternative timeline. The mysterious client has to be the Master right? Him somehow breaking the universe with whatever he did on Gallifrey seems very in character. Maybe he went back to gallifrey's foundation and took over, creating a new timeline, with it only being destroyed in our original timeline? There being a secret pre-Hartnell Doctor is also something I really don't want. Oh and I've just realised there being two Doctors was another reason Jack couldn't lock on to her.
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Jan 27, 2020 01:23
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There’s a theory on Twitter that she’s between the 2nd and 3rd Doctors on account of never actually seeing that regeneration.
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Jan 27, 2020 01:29
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The_Doctor posted:There’s a theory on Twitter that she’s between the 2nd and 3rd Doctors on account of never actually seeing that regeneration. But 2 had a sonic
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Jan 27, 2020 02:00
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THAT WAS loving AWEOMSE IT WAS SUCH A MESS OF WEIRD poo poo I LOVE IT
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Jan 27, 2020 02:51
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CommonShore posted:THAT WAS loving AWEOMSE IT WAS SUCH A MESS OF WEIRD poo poo I LOVE IT I am more and more coming around to this same way of thinking. Yeah maybe it's gonna go somewhere I don't like, but in the moment/for this episode it's just a bunch of WHAT THE FUCCCCK!?! going on where even the Doctor doesn't have a loving clue what is happening, and it's about as far as you can get from playing it safe and I gotta encourage that mindset.
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Jan 27, 2020 03:01
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I don't know what the hell's going on in the most wonderful way!
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Jan 27, 2020 03:23
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Episode good Jack better 
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Jan 27, 2020 03:41
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i didn't read any spoilers and i'm watching this and hahahaha what the gently caress
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Jan 27, 2020 03:42
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eke out posted:i didn't read any spoilers and i'm watching this and hahahaha what the gently caress Doctor Who series 12 (season 38): "hahahaha what the gently caress"
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Jan 27, 2020 03:46
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Someone told Chibnall his take on Who was by-the-numbers. Chibnall: “I’ll show you by-the-numbers, you fucks”
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Jan 27, 2020 03:52
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That was a hot loving mess from start to finish but in the best, classic Doctor Who way. Like "Eight getting amnesia but also being dead in his future but apparently he's locked in an alternate universe because otherwise he'll turn into a monster???" except in shorthand TV form. I was really hoping Gat was going to be the Rani. I don't care if she's a bad character, we are going to get her in the series one day. 
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Jan 27, 2020 04:01
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Oh my god that entire episode was  personified. "And y'all thought you were just getting another Gallifrey destroyed plot?"
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Jan 27, 2020 04:15
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Oh goddamnit, the AVClub review pointed out that you credibly call her Doctor Ruth  I have no idea how to process that episode. Glad to see Jack back, less thrilled at the thought of some sort of retcon, but one way or the other, that was a big goddamn swing.
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Jan 27, 2020 05:18
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Chibnall era is just RTD era in a hi def hat
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Jan 27, 2020 05:18
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I don't know what I just watched.
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Jan 27, 2020 05:37
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Grillfiend posted:I'm gonna guess "Time War shenanigans" This is where I am. I suspect someone is deliberately loving with the Doctor's timeline. After all, she herself says "Someone is coming for me" when she's trying to figure it out at the end. The question is, who? The Master again?
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Jan 27, 2020 05:38
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That was a good daft.
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Jan 27, 2020 05:45
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I’d honestly love to see the rest of the series go increasingly off the rails into barely comprehensible insanity.
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Jan 27, 2020 05:45
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That was a good episode and if this is some parallel universe thing, that's cool. It would at least be a new direction than all the samey poo poo they did at the beginning of the season.
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Jan 27, 2020 05:46
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I'm guessing time's broken, yeah, either as a deliberate result of whatever that "Timeless Child" thing is or whatever the Master did to Gallifrey. Of course the more boring answer would be that this is some hidden past that was kept from the Doctor, so I hope it doesn't go that way. Not that incarnations pre-Hartnell means that much to me but it's just kinda eh.
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Jan 27, 2020 05:54
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I'm really looking forward to learning how the Doctor learned how to beat a Judoon captain in unarmed combat
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Jan 27, 2020 06:28
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HD DAD posted:I’d honestly love to see the rest of the series go increasingly off the rails into barely comprehensible insanity. More Frog Universes please
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Jan 27, 2020 06:44
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This is going to get more messy if she's supposed to be a missing Doctor, they already screwed that up in a sense in Smith's run - if he knew he was on his last life because of the War Doctor/IDon'tWantToGo Doctors, why did he fake regenerating when River shot him, and more to the point, in Let's Kill Hitler, IIRC, it was implied he would have regenerated but couldn't (really going on memory there) at that moment, which is why River had to help him. Yes, it was all a retcon for story reasons, but it's now really really set in stone Doc had 13 "lives" before. Looms would be good as they'd be separate entities with the same bio-signature. Thinking of the other book range, there could have been multiple Gallifreys due to the war (I think there were 9 total in the books) and all the Time Lords cloned themselves somehow, but our Doc would know about that since he was fighting in the war? Also - I want to hydrate myself with the tears of all the chuds who hated having a female Doctor, now that there's a second one, and she's black on top of it. I shouldn't make assumptions all the sexist fans would be racist too, but "mah purity in mah Doctor Who" makes me assume there's a non-zero overlap.
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Jan 27, 2020 06:49
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I really liked that. I feel bad about Lady Gat though, Alt Doctor did tell her not to do it. We've gotten 2 interesting mysteries given to us that I cannot wait to find out what's going on. And as we know, a single Cyberman is the most dangerous thing in the Universe. Also Alt Doctor's suit was baller.
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Jan 27, 2020 06:51
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I'm in the alt universe camp as well. Something in Gallifreyan history happened and the timeline split from way back there. Likely involved with the Timeless Child. The return of Jack was amazing (I also loved him as Malcom Merlyn and wish he could've been around for shooting the finale). I want to say this feels like something harkening back to Davies or Moffat era Who with the larger than life metaplots and mysteries, but with none of the dumb romantic tension between the Doctor and the companion.
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Jan 27, 2020 07:21
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I do love Jack giving a big ol' kiss on Graham.
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Jan 27, 2020 07:35
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I agree with the Parallel universe Doctor theory. It just smell like it. Docter Ruth has a history and method of operation that doesn't jive with any of the Doctors we know about and Gallifrey is evidently different from any version of Galllifrey we know of. What I wonder is if there's a Parallel universe Master. The Master in episode one was too familiar with our Doc so I don't think that would be the doppelganger. Also, there's a electricians joke to be made in that this is the first time that the Doc has been in parallel sequence rather than in serial.
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Jan 27, 2020 07:41
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Why not an alternate universe Master though? All he'd have to do was assume the Doctor had regenerated. It's not like that Master mentioned anything about being Missy or what have you. I wonder if we're looking at a multi-lane pile up on a highway, only with alternative universes and alternative timelords?
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Jan 27, 2020 07:53
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I really hope Gallerfrey is restored at the end of this. I'm kind of tired of having it missing or destroyed or whatever. Sad Doctor is not something I enjoy.
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Jan 27, 2020 07:59
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Fugitive of the Judoon gifs:                Captain loving Jack  Edit: Also I'm glad the creepy-rear end barista got killed 
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Jan 27, 2020 08:30
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The Captain Jack cameo was so disconnected from everything else you could basically have dropped it into any episode this series. I would say at least it's nice to see him again, but honestly, if he's just there to drop a painfully obvious line of exposition, no it's not. Like if you're just looking for an old face to shout "Beware the Cyberman!" you can go weirder than that. Get the lady who was queen in The Beast Below, or the Doctor's clone daughter, or whichever of the old UNIT cast hasn't been credibly accused of rape. Save Barrowman for an occasion where he has more to do than stand in a room and pretend it's shaking under laser fire. That besides, I will definitely take bizarre over boring, so this gets a big thumbs-up from me. It's almost certainly going to botch the landing, but hey, Last of the Time Lords doesn't invalidate Utopia/The Sound of Drums.
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Jan 27, 2020 09:28
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Rochallor posted:The Captain Jack cameo was so disconnected from everything else you could basically have dropped it into any episode this series. I would say at least it's nice to see him again, but honestly, if he's just there to drop a painfully obvious line of exposition, no it's not. Like if you're just looking for an old face to shout "Beware the Cyberman!" you can go weirder than that. Get the lady who was queen in The Beast Below, or the Doctor's clone daughter, or whichever of the old UNIT cast hasn't been credibly accused of rape. Save Barrowman for an occasion where he has more to do than stand in a room and pretend it's shaking under laser fire. Barrowman was there 1 to plausibly remove the companions from the equastion in the a-plot 2 for fanservice, let's not kid ourselves 3 to be a decoy "twist" before the real twist and hopefully 4 to set up his appearance in the finale
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Jan 27, 2020 10:45
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Rochallor posted:The Captain Jack cameo was so disconnected from everything else you could basically have dropped it into any episode this series. I would say at least it's nice to see him again, but honestly, if he's just there to drop a painfully obvious line of exposition, no it's not. Like if you're just looking for an old face to shout "Beware the Cyberman!" you can go weirder than that. Get the lady who was queen in The Beast Below, or the Doctor's clone daughter, or whichever of the old UNIT cast hasn't been credibly accused of rape. Save Barrowman for an occasion where he has more to do than stand in a room and pretend it's shaking under laser fire. I think the Captain Jack bit, yes from a plot perspective kinda works anywhere (although I think it works well here from a perspective of 'okay, get the companions out of the way so the Doctor's alone with Ruth'), but I think works best here in a metatextual way. If it were in Orphan 55 or something it would've felt WAY more out of place, but because he's in the Judoon's episode he fits a loot better just in terms of matching the tone and approach to the episode. Because I mean, yeah, if Jack's gonna turn up anywhere, of course he'll turn up alongside another RTD face, it just makes sense. And of course, his presence just helps to escalate the episode's overall insane what-the-fuckery and cloak any potential spoilers from that escalation. Because even if Captain Jack coming back leaks, or even if someone decides to pause the episode and go telling all their friends who like Doctor Who and don't mind spoilers (...which I did  ), surely that's the big one, right? There's nothing else the episode that brought back Captain Jack Harkness could be hiding!This episode went on an insane bender in 2007, and only just now got back into work, and I love it so much. I literally don't remember the last time I've had this much fun watching Doctor Who.
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Jan 27, 2020 11:00
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Pretty good this week! Easily the one I enjoyed the most since probably It Takes You Away last season. Both Jack and the alt-Doctor were cool reveals and I'm enjoying the weirdness being set up, although I'm not sure there's any way to resolve that latter plot that I'll be happy with. It will probably be an alternate universe / split timeline thing or some complicated impostor/amnesia shenanigans, neither of which sounds too appealing, but we'll see! I don't get the feeling she's a full-on lost incarnation - inserting a whole new regeneration in there has such a huge narrative weight to it that I feel like you have to set it up as such and the reasoning behind it needs to be rock-solid (like with the War Doctor), or else it's just going to feel unearned. Anything pre-Hartnell would feel especially wrong, and even something like her being a CIA Doctor between 2 and 3 seems a bit contrived to me. Who knows, though. Normally I would think something like that or the re-destruction of Gallifrey would be so lame there's no way they would do it without a misdirect or twist of some kind, but then again that's exactly what I thought about Tzim-Sha turning up as the big villain last season. I guess that's one way to keep me on my toes, Chibnall!
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Jan 27, 2020 12:41
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