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Herstory Begins Now posted:If it's being leaked that they don't have the votes, that's probably people starting to realize that they aren't going to wrangle the votes up. Yep, it's great regardless of the outcome. Bolton testimony is good. The best medium term scenario in my view is narrow acquittal with 10 or so republicans voting for removal, which could fracture the party beyond repair. A successful removal vote leaves a small opportunity for the party to rally behind a competent fascist
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Jan 29, 2020 07:27
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oxsnard posted:Yep, it's great regardless of the outcome. Bolton testimony is good. The best medium term scenario in my view is narrow acquittal with 10 or so republicans voting for removal, which could fracture the party beyond repair. A successful removal vote leaves a small opportunity for the party to rally behind a competent fascist What people don't realize is if Trump is removed he can still run for election and I have zero doubt that he would. You would have a fracture as some of the party would nominate someone new and likely most of the GOP machine would rally around them. You would have Trump who would be wounded badly but he would still have a decent amount of rubes and racists. His rallies would be likely open hate going after both Democrats and Republicans but would not have any mainstream media attention anymore. His numbers would likely be around 12-20% in which he would not be able to win but enough to damage the GOP candidate and downticket. And this assumes he wouldn't be immediately arrested coming out of office as well.
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Jan 29, 2020 07:37
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Djarum posted:What people don't realize is if Trump is removed he can still run for election and I have zero doubt that he would. You would have a fracture as some of the party would nominate someone new and likely most of the GOP machine would rally around them. You would have Trump who would be wounded badly but he would still have a decent amount of rubes and racists. His rallies would be likely open hate going after both Democrats and Republicans but would not have any mainstream media attention anymore. His numbers would likely be around 12-20% in which he would not be able to win but enough to damage the GOP candidate and downticket. Nah if they approve the charges as written there's a majority only vote on whether he's barred from public office. They would all assuredly vote on that as well
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Jan 29, 2020 07:44
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Harton posted:What kinda “normal” is there to go back to? "Normal" as we knew it will never be again, I think. I don't feel like the constant tension between people and parties is doing to fade anytime soon either. It's always stressful when talking to random people and not knowing where they stand-- and there's no real way to talk politics with anyone with any civil tone because everyone is so passionate and heavily opposed to the other side. I feel like the only way there's ever going to be bipartisanship in government and among civilians is if compromises are made, but conceding anything is impossible for anyone when a small concession is directly opposed to their values (or lack thereof). And that surely won't come from any of the impeachment conflict either. If GOP gets their way they're only going to become more obnoxious, more smug, more hateful, and more convinced that treason is cool and good. If they don't, they'll only become more hateful and aggressive. Society kind of just makes me sick tbh
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Jan 29, 2020 07:49
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Yeah I’ve been slowly opting out of it myself. If nothing is real the why aren’t we all doing things we enjoy rather than working our lives away for corporations. I quit my job and just do odd jobs now like refinishing hardwood floors and poo poo. Way more satisfying but not nearly enough money.
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Jan 29, 2020 07:52
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Harton posted:Yeah I’ve been slowly opting out of it myself. If nothing is real the why aren’t we all doing things we enjoy rather than working our lives away for corporations. I quit my job and just do odd jobs now like refinishing hardwood floors and poo poo. Way more satisfying but not nearly enough money. Truthfully speaking I've greatly distanced myself from the news because I'm just so sick of seeing what the US is letting the GOP get away with and I'm sick of seeing Trump's ugly smug face every goddamn day. I'm only keeping up with it now out of the faintest glimmer of hope that things will change. Once the obvious result happens I'm probably hermit myself away again and someone can wake me when the election comes up and I can spark that glimmer again for student loan forgiveness. I just kind of try to keep myself distracted with things I enjoy or at least keep my mind off everything else. I work for a nonprofit and I hate my underpaid af job, but it keeps me in my apartment. Nothing is real, indeed, and logic makes no sense. Better to take the soma and try to find what happiness I can until it starts making sense again. I know that's not the best perspective to have and that probably angers more radical spirits here but I'm just loving exhausted, man. I don't have the energy for this poo poo without being utterly self destructive. I just wanna feel happy again in what little ways I can, you know? Depression talk aside, today was the last day of the GOP's appeal to falsehood, right? I wonder how the questions will go. If nothing else I hope someone embarrasses the tortoise on live TV.
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Jan 29, 2020 08:09
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Harton posted:Yeah I’ve been slowly opting out of it myself. If nothing is real the why aren’t we all doing things we enjoy rather than working our lives away for corporations. I quit my job and just do odd jobs now like refinishing hardwood floors and poo poo. Way more satisfying but not nearly enough money. Money is stupid. I tell people I'm 'anticapitalist' and that 'money is gross.' I try to touch as little of it as possible. Give your labor away to people who need it, people who can't afford that labor at 'market prices.' Accept, graciously, what gifts are offered to you. Quit capitalism. Quit USD. Quit the 'exchange economy' altogether - and just give and receive. That's my advice, anyhow.
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Jan 29, 2020 08:52
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Djarum posted:Well he is straight into loony tunes tonight with his greatest hits. I know it has been said before but this really says a lot about the republican party. I only look at those in my family that are voting republican with utter contempt. How does everyone insulate themselves from the anger of hearing trump speak in such a manner?
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Jan 29, 2020 11:22
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ManBoyChef posted:I know it has been said before but this really says a lot about the republican party. I only look at those in my family that are voting republican with utter contempt. How does everyone insulate themselves from the anger of hearing trump speak in such a manner? Most of us don't listen to Trump because theres nothing to be gained from doing so. At this point the only value his worda have are what can be used to impeach or criminally charge him.
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Jan 29, 2020 11:43
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Lol I remember when MoveOn.org got started it was in the middle of the Clinton impeachment trial and the group's name was originally "Censure and Move On". I wonder how far we are from the point where the GOP just throws up their hands and says "Okay so he did it, let's just ... I dunno fine him or something? And then we can all get on with our lives and pretend none of this ever happened" (which is how that whole approach read to me back in the day and sounded totally venal even though I can completely understand in retrospect why they tried it, it was literally an attempt to please everybody, but it ended up sounding mealy-mouthed and like they wanted to just brush it under the rug while the GOP would settle for nothing short of removal)
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Jan 29, 2020 14:11
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My prediction is that there will be witnesses, but Trump will still be acquitted on a party-line vote (maybe Manchin defects, who knows) So basically the Kavanaugh thing again
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Jan 29, 2020 14:26
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Data Graham posted:Lol I remember when MoveOn.org got started it was in the middle of the Clinton impeachment trial and the group's name was originally "Censure and Move On". Because Trump will outright refuse anything but total vindication. ‘If you’re not winning you’re losing there is no compromise’ is something his sick gently caress father drilled into him his whole life and he’s not about to change now. There is nothing worse in Trumps mind than losing. He literally psychologically cannot accept it.
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Jan 29, 2020 14:27
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ManBoyChef posted:I know it has been said before but this really says a lot about the republican party. I only look at those in my family that are voting republican with utter contempt. How does everyone insulate themselves from the anger of hearing trump speak in such a manner? The only family I have left outside of my 74 year old grandma who lives with me and is a hardcore anti-Trumpist is my deadbeat Trump supporting Uncle who has bled my Grandma dry of her savings. I've cut him out of my life along with lots of old mentors and friends. Anyone who still supports Trump at this point is lost and never coming back.
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Jan 29, 2020 14:29
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Oracle posted:Because Trump will outright refuse anything but total vindication. ‘If you’re not winning you’re losing there is no compromise’ is something his sick gently caress father drilled into him his whole life and he’s not about to change now. Yeah but what I'm saying is "censure and move on" wasn't Clinton's idea. They'd have to lock him in a tweet-proof faraday-cage closet to get it done but it would be the Senate GOP's tactic. e: ... And at that point surely they'd have made the calculation that they were better off getting rid of him anyway Data Graham fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Jan 29, 2020 |
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Jan 29, 2020 14:31
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FlamingLiberal posted:My prediction is that there will be witnesses, but Trump will still be acquitted on a party-line vote (maybe Manchin defects, who knows) I mean, yeah. The ONLY way Trump is removed is if McConnell does the math and think he can hold the Senate with Pence vs. Trump. Realistically the GOP choices are: Have Witnesses and get destroy for the next few years or No Witnesses and get destroyed for even longer(but only after FOIA/etc kick in). In either scenario Trump is likely acquired because the GOP are complete cowards and opportunists.
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Jan 29, 2020 14:39
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McConnell isn't making the decision now, it's some combination of Romney, Collins, Gardner, Tillis, and Murkowski. Senate Leadership's and the party's control over an individual senator can be very tenuous. They're usually the most ambitious, experienced, and connected politicians in their state. On top of that, primary them and you're usually giving up the seat as well. On top of that, elections can be extremely local and out of step with national politics. Plus, the difference here between Trump and Kavanaugh is that voting No leaves Trump in office, while voting No on Kavanaugh risked losing a SCOTUS nomination. The sort of people who will hold a grudge about tarnishing Trump's legacy pe hurting his reelection chances probably aren't as important to Gardner as the sort of people who would hold a grudge over controlling the Supreme Court.
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Jan 29, 2020 15:15
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Tibalt posted:Plus, the difference here between Trump and Kavanaugh is that voting No leaves Trump in office, while voting No on Kavanaugh risked losing a SCOTUS nomination. The sort of people who will hold a grudge about tarnishing Trump's legacy pe hurting his reelection chances probably aren't as important to Gardner as the sort of people who would hold a grudge over controlling the Supreme Court. I can’t imagine this was ever a serious consideration. The only ways they could have managed to lose the nomination were if they suddenly lost the senate mid-session (basically impossible) or if Trump steadfastly refuses to nominate anyone who wasn’t a rapist (admittedly slightly more likely, but the GOP would never consider the possibility).
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Jan 29, 2020 15:28
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Framboise posted:"Normal" as we knew it will never be again, I think. I think that you may be pleasantly surprised. I remember talk like this in '73 when Nixon was facing impeachment. The citizenry as a whole are tired of this circus and crave normalcy. While there is no way of knowing yet how quickly governmental institutions can be rebuilt, people will respond to the first & succeeding signs of competency and function. Things will improve, but, as you note, the media narrative will be a constant irritation Framboise posted:I don't feel like the constant tension between people and parties is doing to fade anytime soon either. It's always stressful when talking to random people and not knowing where they stand-- and there's no real way to talk politics with anyone with any civil tone because everyone is so passionate and heavily opposed to the other side. I feel like the only way there's ever going to be bipartisanship in government and among civilians is if compromises are made, but conceding anything is impossible for anyone when a small concession is directly opposed to their values (or lack thereof). With the current corporate media, this will be fostered & cultivated because of "both sides" tension=good storytelling (at least from the infotainment point of view). This is our biggest obstacle to a functioning representative democracy as it will continue to energize the gang of mendacious fucks that now make up the Republican Party, and they won't care about the damage they cause in their efforts to stay relevant. This can be countered somewhat by a growing progressive movement, as the citizenry begin to reap the benefits of increased educational funding, UHC, and UBI experiments in those regions of the country that are testing it. I will continue to beat the gong, that the 1996 Telecommunications Act must be repealed, and the media trusts broken up, followed by the overturning of the Citizens United decision. Without this, the long-term recovery of our institutions, chiefly that of our government serving the people, will remain in a fragile state.
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Jan 29, 2020 15:38
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Tibalt posted:McConnell isn't making the decision now, it's some combination of Romney, Collins, Gardner, Tillis, and Murkowski.
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Jan 29, 2020 15:47
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Stickman posted:I can’t imagine this was ever a serious consideration. The only ways they could have managed to lose the nomination were if they suddenly lost the senate mid-session (basically impossible) or if Trump steadfastly refuses to nominate anyone who wasn’t a rapist (admittedly slightly more likely, but the GOP would never consider the possibility).
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Jan 29, 2020 15:57
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Framboise posted:Truthfully speaking I've greatly distanced myself from the news because I'm just so sick of seeing what the US is letting the GOP get away with and I'm sick of seeing Trump's ugly smug face every goddamn day. I'm only keeping up with it now out of the faintest glimmer of hope that things will change. Once the obvious result happens I'm probably hermit myself away again and someone can wake me when the election comes up and I can spark that glimmer again for student loan forgiveness. Unplug, take some time off, recharge, and come back to fight another day. Burning yourself out does nobody any good, but neither does giving up. Note that taking care of yourself so you can care for others is not giving up
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Jan 29, 2020 16:17
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Submitted questions start again at 1 PM, right?
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Jan 29, 2020 17:19
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Tibalt posted:Plus, the difference here between Trump and Kavanaugh is that voting No leaves Trump in office, while voting No on Kavanaugh risked losing a SCOTUS nomination. The sort of people who will hold a grudge about tarnishing Trump's legacy pe hurting his reelection chances probably aren't as important to Gardner as the sort of people who would hold a grudge over controlling the Supreme Court. There was no chance at them losing a SCOTUS nomination. Off the record reporting said that internally the GOP Senators wanted Trump to withdraw Kavanaugh once the rape stuff broke. Trump and the White House refused to do so. Many members who voted yes did so despite stating objections that it would be killing their chances of re-election. There were promises made for protecting them that likely will not pan out. Trump used all of his political capital in the Senate to ram Kavanaugh through for reasons? Now that he is caught in a situation where having political capital would be helpful those that he burned aren't willing to put their neck out again. They may ultimately vote to not convict him but they are going to make him pay politically for it. This kids is why politicians, especially Presidents, don't behave as Trump does. It is a textbook example of why you don't waste you political capital if you don't have to.
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Jan 29, 2020 17:24
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What kind of madness should we be expecting out of these questions? I know the Chief Justice will be reading them, but do we expect conspiracy theory questions from the GOP?
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Jan 29, 2020 17:37
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PainterofCrap posted:I think that you may be pleasantly surprised. I remember talk like this in '73 when Nixon was facing impeachment. This is both comforting that the feelings I feel of everything sucking forever are normal and depressing that the best we can manage is going back to the racist capital-hungry status quo.
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Jan 29, 2020 17:41
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Slowpoke! posted:What kind of madness should we be expecting out of these questions? Yes.
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Jan 29, 2020 17:41
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Does Roberts have to read every question? I mean, can he find that one (or more) are too outside the scope of the trial and just say, "Nope!"?
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Jan 29, 2020 17:55
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C2C - 2.0 posted:Does Roberts have to read every question? I mean, can he find that one (or more) are too outside the scope of the trial and just say, "Nope!"? "Mr. Sekulow, tell me how my rear end tastes?"
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Jan 29, 2020 18:05
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Uglycat posted:Money is stupid. I tell people I'm 'anticapitalist' and that 'money is gross.' I try to touch as little of it as possible. Give your labor away to people who need it, people who can't afford that labor at 'market prices.' Accept, graciously, what gifts are offered to you. Quit capitalism. Quit USD. Quit the 'exchange economy' altogether - and just give and receive. Sounds like something you hear at Burning Man.
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Jan 29, 2020 18:07
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C2C - 2.0 posted:Does Roberts have to read every question? I mean, can he find that one (or more) are too outside the scope of the trial and just say, "Nope!"? I've been wondering that as well, because I have no doubt that the Republicans are going to submit some super garbage tier leading and loaded questions that would without question not be permitted in any normal court.
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Jan 29, 2020 18:09
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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1222496715422433281 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1222344928530968576 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1222385653029261312 trumps attacking bolton and the white house has issued a threat to keep him from publishing the book. https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/29/politics/donald-trump-john-bolton-white-house-book/index.html yeah, they are loving scared now. so maybe we will get him as a witness plus even if they acquitte now the book is gonna be out.
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Jan 29, 2020 18:21
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ReidRansom posted:I've been wondering that as well, because I have no doubt that the Republicans are going to submit some super garbage tier leading and loaded questions that would without question not be permitted in any normal court. I have a feeling we are going to get lots of questions about the conspiracy theory that Adam Schiff orchestrated this whole thing or that somehow he made the whistleblowers come forward. I really don't think that the GOP understands how whistleblowing is in this country. They are always asking where the second whistleblower went. We don't need them!!! We put whistleblowers in prison. There are two in prison right now! My god if the GOP got any worse I don't know what I would do.
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Jan 29, 2020 18:23
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Djarum posted:There was no chance at them losing a SCOTUS nomination. Off the record reporting said that internally the GOP Senators wanted Trump to withdraw Kavanaugh once the rape stuff broke. Trump and the White House refused to do so. Many members who voted yes did so despite stating objections that it would be killing their chances of re-election. There were promises made for protecting them that likely will not pan out. I’m paraphrasing another poster but this is exactly why he went bankrupt 4-6 times in the 90s. The real estate development industry in nyc is a small pool of people who all work together to share the risk and rewards of building skyscrapers and other multi million dollar projects. Trump got in through his father’s connections, then proceeded to backstab and screw over everyone he could in order to ‘win’ real estate. This worked for a few years, but eventually no one wanted to work with him because he couldn’t think more than one selfish move ahead. Here once again we saw trump burning all his capital to ram a rapist through the confirmation process, and shockingly no one wants to stick their neck out for the next doomed project where he will predictably screw over everyone he can if it means furthering his selfish goals. It’s really just a matter of time until enough GOPers realize they can protect themselves by torching trump first. I can’t wait to see it, his betrayal meltdown before destroying the earth with nukes will be the stuff of legend.
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Jan 29, 2020 18:28
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https://twitter.com/AdamParkhomenko/status/1222549532552110080 https://twitter.com/AdamParkhomenko/status/1222564900972744704 seems like the circus might begin.
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Jan 29, 2020 18:28
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haha oh please this would be the ACME of entertainment for my day!
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Jan 29, 2020 18:33
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https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1222566504744529926 no one really knows what the gently caress this means, a "formal threat" means absolutely nothing but lol at trying to put the cat back in the bag now
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Jan 29, 2020 18:37
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eke out posted:https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1222566504744529926 In this case it means that literally every one will want to see what is in there
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Jan 29, 2020 18:39
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DandyLion posted:haha oh please this would be the ACME of entertainment for my day! oh good more damaging stuff to blindside trump appeasers with GOP must end their policy of appeasement of the executive or suffer more of his shortsighted ignorant ineptitude. I hope they start to realize the price they're committing to paying, and to see what little threat Trump actually posses to them for crossing him. But they won't. We'll get just enough GOP to demand witnesses that this becomes even more of a circus, and from the looks of things there's going to be a daily drop of more damaging stuff to blindside trump appeasers with I gotta say, I kinda like the math on this expect dramatic displays of cognitive dissonance
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Jan 29, 2020 18:39
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Yeah seems like an own goal trying so hard to silence Bolton
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Jan 29, 2020 18:40
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Herstory Begins Now posted:In this case it means that literally every one will want to see what is in there https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/status/1222570022037590016?s=21
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