|
This is rather creepy and I expect would be terrifying if Google Earth could show that 1800' cloud layer. Imagine if it were done in the new Flight Simulator: 
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 05:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 20:56 |
|
|
ManifunkDestiny posted:Well there’s our new thread title IIRC that or something close to it was the thread title at one point a couple years ago.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 05:43
|
|
|
That’s strong evidence for that panic zoom climb then lost situational awareness in the clouds theory.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 05:46
|
|
|
Groda posted:SVFR means 'fly as you CFIT.' ManifunkDestiny posted:Well there’s our new thread title 
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 06:27
|
|
|
Is there a post stuck in the cache? edit: yes, there was.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 06:31
|
|
|
Groda posted:SVFR means 'fly as you CFIT.' 
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 16:04
|
|
|
Groda posted:SVFR means 'fly as you CFIT.' god drat
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 17:25
|
|
|
Groda posted:SVFR means 'fly as you CFIT.' I am going to steal this and use it constantly
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 17:40
|
|
|
Munin posted:You get a good dose of Swiss German in all this as well which I always appreciate. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 17:42
|
|
|
Craptacular posted:IIRC that or something close to it was the thread title at one point a couple years ago. I, too, remember this. I think it was the title before the “last time I took a poo poo at Mach 0.8 I got locked out of the cockpit” title.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 20:47
|
|
|
Sagebrush posted:This is rather creepy and I expect would be terrifying if Google Earth could show that 1800' cloud layer. So, I knew the pilot was trying to follow the highways for navigation. How good or bad an idea is this in the situation he was in? Not being a pilot myself, it sounds like something I'd do during an accidental blimp ascent. Followup not a pilot question: why didn't the pilot do this 
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 00:42
|
|
|
Nebakenezzer posted:So, I knew the pilot was trying to follow the highways for navigation. How good or bad an idea is this in the situation he was in? Not being a pilot myself, it sounds like something I'd do during an accidental blimp ascent. Might not have the proper survival equipment for over water flight. Just a guess if that is a thing for helicopters and weight considerations.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 00:47
|
|
|
Because then you're transiting the LAX Bravo and going to get plowed by a heavy arriving or departing. Turns out large cities have complex terminal area procedures that are spelled out for good reason, including following various highways under VFR conditions.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 00:50
|
|
|
"Why didn't he just fly up the coastline past LAX, then?" Because DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH I PAID FOR THIS OCEANSIDE CONDO/BEACH HOUSE/COMPOUND ONLY TO HAVE MY TRANQUILITY *SHATTERED* BY SOME gently caress IN HIS loving HELICOPTER I'LL SUE YOU reasons.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 01:09
|
|
|
Nebakenezzer posted:So, I knew the pilot was trying to follow the highways for navigation. How good or bad an idea is this in the situation he was in? Not being a pilot myself, it sounds like something I'd do during an accidental blimp ascent. As noted it's an overwater flight and they probably didn't have the required survival equipment (that probably falls within the "life jacket for each person" regime), and it passes right through the LAX departure corridor so SOCAL/LAX probably would not have allowed that routing. Also the weather may have been just as lovely off the coast; flying under a heavy cloud layer over water is even more disorienting than doing it over land. Following highways is perfectly fine and a decent way to navigate under the lovely SVFR they were in, since the road runs through the low points in the mountains and is an acceptable (not ideal, especially with LA traffic) emergency landing site.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 01:43
|
|
|
Also, "I'm just going to navigate VFR out here, out of sight of land in marginal conditions."
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 01:44
|
|
|
Ardeem posted:Also, "I'm just going to navigate VFR out here, out of sight of land in marginal conditions." it's okay i'm sure the pilot had his ipad
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 01:52
|
|
|
USAF buying a couple new F15s with plans for more. https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/01/28/air-force-moves-forward-f-15ex-fighter-jet-buy.html
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 01:59
|
|
|
slidebite posted:USAF buying a couple new F15s with plans for more. 8 jets only for now maybe. Those are gonna be some slick rear end Eagles.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 02:17
|
|
|
Thanks for the answers, friends. It's a nice antidote to the MSM news of "IF ONLY KOBE HAD THIS COLLISION DETECTOR DEVICE HE WOULD HAVE> BEEN FINE" The finest idea NASA had in the last decade: HAVOC
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 02:45
|
|
|
Nebakenezzer posted:Thanks for the answers, friends. It's a nice antidote to the MSM news of "IF ONLY KOBE HAD THIS COLLISION DETECTOR DEVICE HE WOULD HAVE> BEEN FINE"
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 02:56
|
|
|
I thought of you the other day, I was in a museum and they had a WWI Zeppelin engine and one of the anti-Zeppelin darts
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 03:11
|
|
|
slidebite posted:USAF buying a couple new F15s with plans for more. Cool, can’t wait to see how Boeing does with software on the the F-15E(MA)X.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 04:03
|
|
|
The F-15 buy is generally seen as a good thing by the Eagle and C2 dudes I know. gently caress. That feels like they were trying to get out of the clouds and figure out where they were.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 04:34
|
|
|
BIG HEADLINE posted:My father, pushing 70 and a former TH-57, CH-46D/E, and CH/MH-53E pilot, said that based on what he heard and saw from the record, it looks like the helicopter entered a zoom climb, probably to avoid terrain. At the top of those kinds of climbs, you go weightless, and he thinks the pilot got disoriented and/or panicked and that's what led to the crash. It might also explain why some people heard the helicopter 'laboring.' Big Headline posted a longer version of this in the Idiots thread, and I found it interesting. BIG HEADLINE posted:So I asked my father to email me a more specific retelling of this story, and he refused, so this is gonna be slightly paraphrased, but in light of the Kobe crash, he talked about one of his pilots doing something stupid during his command tour. Platystemon fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Jan 30, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 04:45
|
|
|
Nebakenezzer posted:Thanks for the answers, friends. It's a nice antidote to the MSM news of "IF ONLY KOBE HAD THIS COLLISION DETECTOR DEVICE HE WOULD HAVE> BEEN FINE" "This is loving awesome, it's a weird Neb post though it doesn't involve WWII aircraft or airsh.... THERE IT IS!"
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 05:55
|
|
|
Is there some kind of data recorder in these?
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 06:46
|
|
|
Godholio posted:gently caress. That feels like they were trying to get out of the clouds and figure out where they were. If only there were some sort of way to fly independently from visual queues in a regime of bad visibility that could could have requested somehow, like some sort of Independent Flying Regime, we could even call it IFR for short, since aviation loves acronyms. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 06:49
|
|
|
Godholio posted:Is there some kind of data recorder in these? Per the NTSB briefing from a few days ago, this particular airframe was not required to, and did not have a FDR equipped. SeaborneClink fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Jan 30, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 08:47
|
|
|
e.pilot posted:If only there were some sort of way to fly independently from visual queues in a regime of bad visibility that could could have requested somehow, like some sort of Independent Flying Regime, we could even call it IFR for short, since aviation loves acronyms.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 13:09
|
|
|
evil_bunnY posted:What's the reason the pilot didn't do this? Was he not certified? Can you not do that in a rotary with pax without equipment he didn't have? He held current certification. The helicopter ought to have been capable. He was trying to saving time.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 13:32
|
|
|
Talkie people on the music station radio were talking about Kobe today and how the helicopter would have been fine if it had 'safety features installed' [TAWS], and 'why didnt it have a black box?' Preaching to the choir in this particular thread, but people don't blame car accidents on people not having lane assist
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 16:52
|
|
|
EvenWorseOpinions posted:Talkie people on the music station radio were talking about Kobe today and how the helicopter would have been fine if it had 'safety features installed' [TAWS], and 'why didnt it have a black box?' People also never drive in conditions that they have no business driving in either.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 16:55
|
|
|
The no black box thing is actually something that Colbert talked for awhile about on his show. Colbert's father and two brothers died in Eastern Air Lines Flight 212 in 1974 so he feels a bit personal about air tragedies. He also apparently had a lengthy discussion about helicopter safety with the pilot for his recent shows in New Zealand. His emphasis was that we improve air safety by doing proper investigations of the root causes and all the contributing factors and that's difficult to do thoroughly when there's only wreckage left to sift through. Yeah, it's easy to look at something like this and say the cause was simple 'getthereitis', but there could have been contributing factors that stacked the deck against them that we may never know about due to lacking the data. Even cars today record data parameters that could be retrieved in the case of an accident. it does seem kind of silly that data recorders aren't mandated on any aircraft that can carry passengers. This was the segment in question. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1IX-MF82SI bull3964 fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Jan 30, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 17:24
|
|
|
Like what's the ballpark number to have them?
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 17:27
|
|
C-Bangin' it 
|
EvenWorseOpinions posted:Talkie people on the music station radio were talking about Kobe today and how the helicopter would have been fine if it had 'safety features installed' [TAWS], and 'why didnt it have a black box?' This poo poo is giving me flashbacks to MA370. "How come cars can have a lojack system but planes do not? Makes you think! "
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 17:45
|
|
|
EvenWorseOpinions posted:Talkie people on the music station radio were talking about Kobe today and how the helicopter would have been fine if it had 'safety features installed' [TAWS], and 'why didnt it have a black box?' TAWS makes sense to not have but how does a $15mil helicopter from the 80s not have a data recorder?
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 18:27
|
|
|
bull3964 posted:The no black box thing is actually something that Colbert talked for awhile about on his show. Colbert's father and two brothers died in Eastern Air Lines Flight 212 in 1974 so he feels a bit personal about air tragedies. He also apparently had a lengthy discussion about helicopter safety with the pilot for his recent shows in New Zealand. His emphasis was that we improve air safety by doing proper investigations of the root causes and all the contributing factors and that's difficult to do thoroughly when there's only wreckage left to sift through. the problem is where exactly is the dividing line on the Minimum Equipment List? requiring flight data recorders is not a minor upgrade; look at how much gnashing there was over the ADS-B out requirement change across the industry- and for most aircraft that just required swapping a transponder and a small transceiver with minimal wiring. FDRs are large, heavy, and require significant wiring integration, and for most aircraft would absolutely require an STC. who's gonna pay for that design and engineering cost? certification cost? also, for the FDR systems we used in our rotary wing aircraft, the recorder alone weighted easily over 50 lbs and was roughly half the size of a computer tower- where are you going to put that in GA or light commercial aircraft without weight and balance issues? now you have to include ballast to accommodate it, and so on, etc. i do agree with you that it absolutely makes flight investigations much more comprehensive and likely to discover a correctable cause, but it's not as simple as "just install a FDR" like the ADS-B roll out. it would require some serious investment to push that change industry-wide. Platystemon posted:Big Headline posted a longer version of this in the Idiots thread, and I found it interesting. BIG HEADLINE posted:So I asked my father to email me a more specific retelling of this story, and he refused, so this is gonna be slightly paraphrased, but in light of the Kobe crash, he talked about one of his pilots doing something stupid during his command tour. one thing to keep in mind is that the max gross weight of the MH-53E is 73,500 lbs, while the S-76 is only 11,700 lbs. i'm not saying you can't overstress the rotor system on a S-76 by maneuvering, but inertia matters.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 18:55
|
|
|
I would expect to see much needed and long overdue changes to SVFR to be the outcome of this.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 19:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 20:56 |
|
|
brains posted:FDRs are large, heavy, and require significant wiring integration, and for most aircraft would absolutely require an STC. who's gonna pay for that design and engineering cost? certification cost? also, for the FDR systems we used in our rotary wing aircraft, the recorder alone weighted easily over 50 lbs and was roughly half the size of a computer tower- where are you going to put that in GA or light commercial aircraft without weight and balance issues? now you have to include ballast to accommodate it, and so on, etc. Can you make a direct analog of what an FDR is like on a fixed wing craft to one that would be needed on a helicopter? How much of the size and the mass of an FDR is made to survive a plane hitting the ground at 500mph and then thousands of gallons of jet fuel burning off. I mean, the East River crash where five people were killed had recoverable video from normal run of the mill cell phones. Surely there's some sort of middle ground that would provide better data and logging over the cross section of crash profiles out there for helicopters without having to construct something that can survive creating a 12ft deep crater. Maybe it isn't as survivable and not all crashes have recoverable data, but that happens today with airliners. But yeah, serious investment and push is something that would be required but is there really an argument against it outside of cost and effort? I'm sure similar arguments were made around putting FDRs on commercial aircraft at the time. Above all though, it just seems weird that an industry that has learned SO much from real world accidents and have adjusted both aircraft design and crew training to make flying more and more safe just kind of turns a blind eye to this specific piece of it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 19:14
|
|