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TommyGun85 posted:I think the White Checks inadvertantly cause most players to play wrong by allowing them to try again or pump points into skills that are counter to the characters they want to play just for the sake of progression. Yeah I'm starting to think the same thing with regards to the white checks. They should all be treated like red checks because I was getting caught up with saving my points to retry checks, not knowing that there were other ways of unlocking checks and that your skills will chime in with a lot more information and potential quests.
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Jan 30, 2020 19:48
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Disco Elysium is, at best, a B+ of a game
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Jan 30, 2020 19:55
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I just got to day 3 and am gonna look for this Ruby girl so I have no idea how far I am but this game is best of 2019 for the Rigorous Self-critique thought alone.
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Jan 30, 2020 20:00
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TommyGun85 posted:I think the White Checks inadvertantly cause most players to play wrong by allowing them to try again or pump points into skills that are counter to the characters they want to play just for the sake of progression. this would suck rear end and require a complete restructuring of the game, into one that sucked rear end there's plenty of RPGs that have hard skillchecks of the "oh lol you didn't spend enough points in this skill by pop quiz time WELP you're hardlocked out of that content forever now, byeee" kind, and they either make the whole thing into an anxiety-inducing hassle where the playerbase is expected to read the devs' minds on how to optimize their character or get told they're not allowed to have any fun unless they start the whole drat game over, or require making the locked content so incidental the whole exercise is pointless. The white checks as structured allow you to try, fail, and try again, with skill points and rerolls given out liberally enough that if you really want to invest in doing something you can (and I don't know why you'd classify "make a character that is good at the things I want them to do successfully" as "not making the character you want to play"), but not so much that you don't have to choose which ones you really want. GokuGoesSSJ3 posted:Most of the game I only had one or two banked. I had like 6 or 7 thoughts too. They got spent. Obviously you won't see absolutely everything in one run the way the dialogue system is but if anything I saw more that way instead of just blindly assigning them to one or two skills because skills like perception that started pretty low ended up being decent and would come up more in dialogue. Yes, the skills you've invested more into come up more in dialogue, and have their own little branching events and dialogue trees you don't see otherwise. That's how the game works. The same guy always did the murder in the end but if you're a CSI nerd with no social skills you don't even think the thoughts the empath shaman-cop of the apocalypse would have. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Jan 30, 2020 |
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Jan 30, 2020 21:29
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Entorwellian posted:Yeah I'm starting to think the same thing with regards to the white checks. They should all be treated like red checks because I was getting caught up with saving my points to retry checks, not knowing that there were other ways of unlocking checks and that your skills will chime in with a lot more information and potential quests. Nah, it's good that you're not encouraged to go tunnel-vision on the skills that you, the player, are most interested in. Having to spread your points around is gamey, but it also gives you skills piping up in dialog that you don't want to listen to. The game would be way less fun if you didn't get electrochemistry or drama telling you to steal drugs or lie for no reason all the time. The skills themselves are specialized, it would suck if they could all be used to solve every problem.
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Jan 30, 2020 21:34
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:this would suck rear end and require a complete restructuring of the game, into one that sucked rear end this is completely wrong if failure of a check based on your characters skills is equally as interesting and passing the check. thats the difference betqeen this game and others. Its still interesting and progressive to fail, but to each their own. If you want a 6 6 6 6 guy just to pass every check, just read a transcript of the game, why bother playing it.
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Jan 30, 2020 22:28
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that's... barely English, hope you can reroll that Rhetoric check dude
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Jan 30, 2020 23:17
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I like the white checks explicitly because they had me round out my character. It was a mirror to how the game starts and ends, for me - in the beginning I was a caricature of a person, but by the end I was a well rounded cop with a few specialties and uncomfortable quirks. If everything was red checks it might have incentivized me to keep being that caricature and put me in a completely different mindset.
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Jan 31, 2020 00:38
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All 6s is a valid way to play the game, so valid that I think there should have been a newgame+ SUPERCOP option. It's not just always passing, it's also having an incredibly chatty head and hearing some rare combinations interact.
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Jan 31, 2020 00:45
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The white checks are fine. You can't force a user to roleplay, so why try (and mess up the game design in the process). Turns out a role playing game is better if you role play in it, instead of treating it as a shopping list.
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Jan 31, 2020 00:50
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Rope kid post the talk https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/1223008756914503680
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Jan 31, 2020 00:50
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Watching the recent The Tick and just got to the scene where The Tick upon questioning admits he has no memory of anything beyond a few days ago, and gets confused and doesn't accomplish much without Arthur to give him some direction and it was mighty familiar. I got a few episodes in and then didn't have time to keep watching, but for someone who has kept up with the amazon run of The Tick, question: Do they ever come right out and say that the Tick is a tulpa or some other being created/directed by Arthur's will? Does it just keep getting implied? Does the show veer off in an entirely different direction? I feel like this is one of those situations where I'm never going to bother to watch the show unless the answer to that question is interesting.
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Jan 31, 2020 01:20
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Pretty sure The Tick got cancelled, so you'll never get an answer to that question. 
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Jan 31, 2020 01:27
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For what it's worth I savescummed like gently caress through white checks in my playthrough if the failure didn't lead to something interesting and I still absolutely loved it. It's only savescumming the red checks and the few white ones that clearly lead to something more (e.g. Jamais Vu) that I think are necessarily detrimental to the experience.
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Jan 31, 2020 01:34
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Welp that showdown could have gone better basically all the Hardie boys died, i got shot in the leg and nothing seemed to come out of it. I really shouldn't have been 100% nice cop.
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Jan 31, 2020 02:25
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Paladin posted:I got a few episodes in and then didn't have time to keep watching, but for someone who has kept up with the amazon run of The Tick, question: Do they ever come right out and say that the Tick is a tulpa or some other being created/directed by Arthur's will? Does it just keep getting implied? Does the show veer off in an entirely different direction? I feel like this is one of those situations where I'm never going to bother to watch the show unless the answer to that question is interesting. The question is raised and dismissed as unlikely in like episode 3 or 4. It's still a good show. EDIT : And it got a second season at least, which manages to also be decent. Fans of the comic/cartoon may trip over the fact that it's just not the same kind of Tick and it's making comedy out of a different kind of superheroes.
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Jan 31, 2020 02:27
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I was a spazzcop at that point and savescummed once, the second try I think I got about the best results of that 3 vs us. I do wonder where the other two were though, during the playthrough until they appear, I guess one might be the money guy who's usually chilling in whirling, but the woman?
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Jan 31, 2020 02:42
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staberind posted:I was a spazzcop at that point and savescummed once, the second try I think I got about the best results of that 3 vs us. The other guy didn't show up in town until just before the tribunal starts (it's kind of obscure learning this properly in-game - apparently Ruby will tell you only if you have not heard of the tribunal prior to meeting her). The woman is hanging out in a building you can't get to but you can see the building itself, it's the open window/balcony in the very bottom right of the playable area. I think it's Joyce that tells you where she is but I forget exactly.
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Jan 31, 2020 02:54
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Speaking of Joyce, i could never get and dialog options for her to tell me about the case. She'd just straight up refuse to tell me and that was it.
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Jan 31, 2020 03:02
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i wish i could find a straight up compilation of measure head quotes on youtube, i want to fall asleep to him lecturing me on race science and the decline of occidental haplogroup B4
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Jan 31, 2020 03:04
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twistedmentat posted:Speaking of Joyce, i could never get and dialog options for her to tell me about the case. She'd just straight up refuse to tell me and that was it. I was confused at first about dialogue options being grayed out still after showing her my badge, but found pursuing them again got her to talk.
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Jan 31, 2020 03:14
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Okay? I like RPGs a lot. You're probably right this isn't the type of rpg for me though, and now you're all really going to hate me, I don't like planescape torment either. The writing in this game gets up it's own rear end a lot less than that one though I'll give it that. Lockback posted:Again, its perfectly reasonable that you didn't like the game but you are presenting it as if there was something fundamentally badly designed about the game but it should be clear that you came into it with wildly off-base expectations. That's fine, but again, not the game's fault. Here's the thing though. If the way the game presents itself to be best played mechanically doesn't mesh with the way it should best be played narratively it's a bad design. It's the game's fault.
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Jan 31, 2020 03:44
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GokuGoesSSJ3 posted:I like RPGs a lot. You're probably right this isn't the type of rpg for me though, and now you're all really going to hate me, I don't like planescape torment either. The writing in this game gets up it's own rear end a lot less than that one though I'll give it that. Out of curiosity, what game do you believe has good writing?
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Jan 31, 2020 03:48
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Arianya posted:Re: Favourite Skills, mine had to be Volition - I love Volition, too, but I married Inland Empire and will die married to Inland Empire. If I'm not talking to dead things or inanimate things or livings things not capable of human speech, then I might as well be a dead, inanimate thing incapable of human speech. Also, Inland Empire > Shivers. I'll take my beating outside, thanks. The Cheshire Cat posted:I think the best approach in this game if you’re tempted to save scum is keep multiple saves, but don’t use them until you finish the game. If you feel like you want to go back and change something, you can, but you also end up with an “authentic” first playthrough. A good compromise, I will try that the next time a game like Disco Elysium comes out (never). Although my money is on me not being able to wait that long to see the content that I want to see at that moment.
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Jan 31, 2020 03:51
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Out of curiosity, what game do you believe has good writing? First thing that comes to mind is Deus Ex since it's a sort of similar distopian setting to this one. Witcher 3 is one I can say I was really invested in the story. Fallout New Vegas is another one with good dialogue. I don't think the writing is bad, it just wasn't compelling to me. "You need to learn to let go" has been used so many times as a theme in rpgs and it's my least favorite reoccurring theme in them.
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Jan 31, 2020 03:59
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GokuGoesSSJ3 posted:First thing that comes to mind is Deus Ex since it's a sort of similar distopian setting to this one. Witcher 3 is one I can say I was really invested in the story. Fallout New Vegas is another one with good dialogue. I don't think the writing is bad, it just wasn't compelling to me. "You need to learn to let go" has been used so many times as a theme in rpgs and it's my least favorite reoccurring theme in them. Are there any primarily text-based RPG's you like? I'm noticing that you seem to prefer games where the writing is mostly the dialogue. What other RPG's use the "You need to learn to let go" theme? I sure as hell could use more of those in my life.
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Jan 31, 2020 04:11
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Barnaby Barnacle posted:I was confused at first about dialogue options being grayed out still after showing her my badge, but found pursuing them again got her to talk. Yea i tried a bunch of times but nothing came up. I must have gone too far helping the Union to get her to talk. Finished it. Great. I'll wait a bit before replaying because i know now what serious mistakes I made and I kind of want to forget some stuff before tackeling it again. Though Know how to build a specific cop now.
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Jan 31, 2020 04:35
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GokuGoesSSJ3 posted:First thing that comes to mind is Deus Ex since it's a sort of similar distopian setting to this one. Witcher 3 is one I can say I was really invested in the story. Fallout New Vegas is another one with good dialogue. I don't think the writing is bad, it just wasn't compelling to me. "You need to learn to let go" has been used so many times as a theme in rpgs and it's my least favorite reoccurring theme in them. Deus Ex was a great game but OH MY GOD JC A BOMB if you want to compare the writing quality... Seems like you just prefer more typical RPGs good for you 
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Jan 31, 2020 05:05
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No Mods No Masters posted:Rope kid post the talk My assumption is that this is going to be about the Copotypes in DE vs Reputations in PoE2. In PoE2 your responses were tagged with a variety of personality aspects, like 'Ruthless', 'Benevolent', 'Honorable', 'Aggressive' etc (I don't recall if some were opposed or not) and the amount of times you picked any of these options were tracked (and of course some dialogue choices were worth a lot more in a particular aspect than others) and characters would occasionally respond to you based on what your reputation levels were. The issue I, at least had in PoE2 was that occasionally a character would say "you're a shady guy" because I had picked one or two moderately Shady things, whereas my Benevolent score was through the roof, but they hadn't coded in a particular Benevolent response for that conversation. Meanwhile in PoE2 there's a much more limited range of Copotypes that you fall into as the game progresses, so the game can feel more comfortable responding to dialogue that falls into that.
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Jan 31, 2020 05:53
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Copotypes are a thing but it's fairly similar to how Obsidian and BioWare have handled character archetypes in their RPGs. I'm also curious to see it but I suspect he's referring to something simpler that's immediately obvious when you start to play it: DE uses skill interjections to flesh out the main character's take on each situation, so it's able to react to just about every event differently, even when there's no branching choice to make. This means you do not necessarily have to create a huge branching dialogue tree to have it feel reactive.
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Jan 31, 2020 07:04
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Personally, I would have preferred it if white checks had fixed skill requirements instead of probabilities. Failing a 90% white check isn't interesting or tells me anything about my character. It's just annoying, and I found it way too tempting to savescum through stuff like that instead of having to return once I got a new skill point.
SimonChris fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Jan 31, 2020 |
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Jan 31, 2020 11:15
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bewilderment posted:My assumption is that this is going to be about the Copotypes in DE vs Reputations in PoE2. You also choose to accept or reject any given copotype.
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Jan 31, 2020 11:43
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I liked it how the voices reassure you that you can multi-class copotypes. So I could play the Sorry Art Cop that I was meant to be.
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Jan 31, 2020 11:46
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twistedmentat posted:Yea i tried a bunch of times but nothing came up. I must have gone too far helping the Union to get her to talk. IIRC you can get more info out of her if manage to investigate the drug smuggling ring enough to find tangible evidence and share some with her. Pretty sure that's how I learned all about the tribunal and the third mercenary.
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Jan 31, 2020 11:52
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bewilderment posted:My assumption is that this is going to be about the Copotypes in DE vs Reputations in PoE2. im guessing the same less the checks (which are nothing new dice roll checks are straight D&D and this isn't the first game where even biffing a check is not a "fail") but the stats informing and even lying to you in your head but also checks decreasing in difficulty if you hit thresholds both of those are kind of newish to me, at least, from what i remember of games. the latter definitely being pretty good, do other quests or intelligently mine a dialog tree (not just do every option) and you can weaken the resolve of a suspect or make it easier to figure out a check on say a side of wall or door or something if i was spitballing and thinking a further way to disincentivize just save scumming (which is fine, i ended up doing my first playthrough that way and still loved the game) would be put white checks on a X time passed instead of spend point on skill to try again white checks are usually just yeah you hosed up, try later but the one thing that stuck out to me playing the game like three times is theres a lot of ways to kill time but very rarely do you need to do to unless you're just trying to finish off thought catalog stuff, but on your first playthrough the game really sells you (finish poo poo) and you think you have an incredibly finite time to actually do things when only a small handful of quests really are time gated
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Jan 31, 2020 12:15
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Berke Negri posted:if i was spitballing and thinking a further way to disincentivize just save scumming (which is fine, i ended up doing my first playthrough that way and still loved the game) would be put white checks on a X time passed instead of spend point on skill to try again Wouldn’t that do the opposite? If there’s currently three ways to retry a check (spend point, save scum, come back later), removing the first option would incentivise doing the second.
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Jan 31, 2020 13:26
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SimonChris posted:Personally, I would have preferred it if white checks had fixed skill requirements instead of probabilities. Failing a 90% white check isn't interesting or tells me anything about my character. It's just annoying, and I found it way too tempting to savescum through stuff like that instead of having to return once I got a new skill point. I actually prefer it the way it is. Folks have the option to save scum if it bothers them that much, but other folks like me have the option to just "let it ride". I don't save points skill points for white checks, and there's very few I'll re-roll. And I think it does make for an interesting story, one that shows that even a bumbling character can get lucky once in a while, and the opposite can occur as well. There's a lot of cool dialogue in this game that only occurs when you fail something, and folks would miss that by trying to min max this game. This game is not really meant to be played that way, and while the option is there, I'd prefer it remain an option.
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Jan 31, 2020 13:27
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I do wish a few more checks would re-open on day roll over. Like the early checks at the mirror and such.
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Jan 31, 2020 13:33
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Reveilled posted:Wouldn’t that do the opposite? If there’s currently three ways to retry a check (spend point, save scum, come back later), removing the first option would incentivise doing the second. checks do not re-open on time passed, so no, there's only two options in game (skill point, or thought catalog resetting things) or save scum
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Jan 31, 2020 13:42
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Berke Negri posted:checks do not re-open on time passed, so no, there's only two options in game (skill point, or thought catalog resetting things) or save scum Not on time passed exactly, but frequently there’s ways to unlock a check if you go away, do something else, and come back. The FELD building, or the wall painting, as examples.
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Jan 31, 2020 13:47
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