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Rabid Snake posted:In the concept of the Good Place where you're in "heaven", sometimes its okay to let go into nothingness. Whats wrong with that? It definitely felt like the good place was purgatory where you can work on your character enough to be satisfied. If they're happy with themselves and ready to let go then I don't see a problem in the Good Place The problem is that goons often go down a rabbit hole of trying to interpret things in an overly literal and mathematical manner, especially when it comes to humanities topics they aren't very familiar with.
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Jan 31, 2020 18:31
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Lutha Mahtin posted:The problem is that goons often go down a rabbit hole of trying to interpret things in an overly literal and mathematical manner, especially when it comes to humanities topics they aren't very familiar with. Come on now, it's good to have conversations about media that brings up philosophical things like this, and having a wide range of opinions and attitudes is healthy. It's also useful to have a mixture of people experienced with the philosophical issues at hand as well as novices. Novices get to learn, and the experienced get to teach - and at the same time, one of the best ways to learn something is to teach it. Many things are rote, but you can and will encounter ideas or come up with ways of describing something that you haven't thought of before, or that puts what you know into new light. Jumping in with blanket insults to belittle and demean those who aren't experts but are nonetheless having conversations in good faith isn't conducive to a healthy discourse. It also makes people more likely to resent your presence rather than appreciate it. I've seen your posts so far - I suspect you can do better. ashpanash fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jan 31, 2020 |
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Jan 31, 2020 19:57
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The wave metaphor did a pretty solid job situating the door not as suicide, but as transformation. Walking through it doesn't so much mean "I am done with existing" as "I am done with being this". Which is why we very literally see that the components of Eleanor's being continue to persist and sprinkle over the earth. They'll never form the entity that is Eleanor again, but they'll take root somewhere. I do agree it's important to firmly distinguish what's happening in the show vs the motives and impulses of IRL suicide, but there was enough clarity for me at least.
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Jan 31, 2020 20:35
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Regy Rusty posted:I think what it comes down to that I completely buy that in the version of an afterlife depicted in this show, once you've lived a thousand lifetimes and have done everything you could ever imagine, you could indeed feel satisfied and be truly ready for it to end. I can imagine that world even though in our reality it doesn't exist and we won't ever experience that. I was skeptical of the door at first too, but I think what made me come around on it was watching all of the "going-away parties", as it were, when each of the characters said they were ready. Nobody just went "welp, bye," and disappeared; they all put on big celebrations of their lives with all of their closest friends and loved ones, and each party was perfect for who they were. Even here on Earth, I can think of no more perfect end to my existence than being surrounded by and reminiscing with everyone I love, none of them wanting me to leave and at the same time understanding that I have to go. With that kind of ending, the door isn't death, it's just going to another place. The other thing that helped me come around on it was Chidi's departure, because he made it clear that the door isn't just a personal decision. It was never stated outright, but I think the implication was pretty heavy that even when Chidi felt ready, he was never going to go through the door until he knew that Eleanor was ready for him to leave. He said he'd been ready for awhile, but it was clear to me that he was willing to stay for Eleanor's sake for as long as it took, and he only left once she reached her peace with it. At that point the door stopped being a selfish, personal decision and became a communal thing, which took away the rest of the sting. There was sadness when Chidi left, but there was also acceptance from those around him. If death has to exist, then that, in my mind, is how death should be.
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Jan 31, 2020 20:40
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TheOneAndOnlyT posted:Same. Michael was gonna and it didn't work!
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Jan 31, 2020 20:51
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silvergoose posted:Michael was gonna and it didn't work!  But also I'm not going to judge the show on how it treats the death of eternal non-human beings.
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Jan 31, 2020 21:10
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I don't think the show needed to make up a massive, complicated cosmology to explain every last detail about what was happening and how it all worked - they just needed to justify what they did show, in particular how it related to the main characters. And I think that, with the final episode, they did a very good job of doing that.Abed posted:"There is skill to it. More importantly, it has to be joyful, effortless, fun. TV defeats its own purpose when it's pushing an agenda, or trying to defeat other TV or being proud or ashamed of itself for existing. It's TV; it's comfort. It's a friend you've known so well, and for so long you just let it be with you, and it needs to be okay for it to have a bad day or phone in a day, and it needs to be okay for it to get on a boat with LeVar Burton and never come back. Because eventually, it all will." ashpanash fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Jan 31, 2020 |
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Jan 31, 2020 21:19
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I can't think of many shows (especially sitcoms) that were so consistently good from beginning to end as this one. Even some of my favorite shows of all time have the occasional season or stretch that just doesn't work as well, while even the "worst" episodes of The Good Place were still, like, an A-.
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Jan 31, 2020 21:28
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Preorders up for the blurays, including a full disc worth of bonus features https://www.shoutfactory.com/product/the-good-place-the-complete-series-collector-s-edition?product_id=7358
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Jan 31, 2020 21:36
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Lord Hydronium posted:I can't think of many shows (especially sitcoms) that were so consistently good from beginning to end as this one. Even some of my favorite shows of all time have the occasional season or stretch that just doesn't work as well, while even the "worst" episodes of The Good Place were still, like, an A-. Exactly. Even the worst episodes of this show (IMO the first 2-3 of S4) were still very solid. And those were only "bad" (relative to the rest) because they had to set up the plot going forward.
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Jan 31, 2020 21:39
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So that definitely means the afterlife will eventually empty forever one day right
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Jan 31, 2020 21:46
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When humanity goes extinct I suppose
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Jan 31, 2020 21:48
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Well, the heat death of the universe is canon, so yes.
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Jan 31, 2020 21:54
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RBA Starblade posted:So that definitely means the afterlife will eventually empty forever one day right Yes, but a Bearimy is circular, right? I think you're best off not thinking about it too much.
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Jan 31, 2020 21:55
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Arist posted:As someone who also has ADHD, it's not at all the same thing. There's a difference between growing naturally and snapping your fingers and having an inextricable part of your mind altered as if it was never there. How about when I medically and socially transitioned? To all the world it appears as if I changed my gender. Should I have not bothered because it would fundamentally alter me?
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Jan 31, 2020 22:11
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So, first I'd like to say that you escalated the scenario in a way that feels rather hostile, and that's weird. Second, there's absolutely a difference between medicating and deciding "I want my brain to never be sad or bored." There's no version of me that exists without ADHD. It's part of my literal being, and has been for my entire life. "Curing" it would mean fundamentally changing the way I think, act, and exist. The person you would create when you do that would be a different person, and probably in a way much more dramatic than simple aging could match. But also, if the show ended with the main characters deciding to reprogram their brains so they feel eternal bliss and never want to leave the Good Place, it would be antithetical to its entire modus operandi. This is a fundamentally humanist story. An ending where they decide "this part of the core experience of being alive and aware isn't worth it, let's get rid of it," where they remove part of their base humanity, is a bad ending.
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Jan 31, 2020 22:38
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Arist posted:So, first I'd like to say that you escalated the scenario in a way that feels rather hostile, and that's weird. Second, there's absolutely a difference between medicating and deciding "I want my brain to never be sad or bored." There's no version of me that exists without ADHD. It's part of my literal being, and has been for my entire life. "Curing" it would mean fundamentally changing the way I think, act, and exist. The person you would create when you do that would be a different person, and probably in a way much more dramatic than simple aging could match. In my opinion it's gross that you keep trying to claim this show as belonging to your personal religious faction. The show very clearly avoids doing this, many times.
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Jan 31, 2020 22:56
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What the gently caress are you talking about? All I'm saying with the statement that it's a humanist story is that it thinks human beings have agency and value.
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Jan 31, 2020 23:04
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Humanism is a religious philosophy and movement.
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Jan 31, 2020 23:06
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Lutha Mahtin posted:Humanism is a religious philosophy and movement. Humanism is a philosophical stance heavily associated with secularism in modern times. It feels like you're knee-jerk reacting to anything vaguely religious, which is hilarious because I'm an atheist.
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Jan 31, 2020 23:07
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Supercar Gautier posted:The wave metaphor did a pretty solid job situating the door not as suicide, but as transformation. Walking through it doesn't so much mean "I am done with existing" as "I am done with being this". Which is why we very literally see that the components of Eleanor's being continue to persist and sprinkle over the earth. They'll never form the entity that is Eleanor again, but they'll take root somewhere. Eh. To me it's functionally the same as the hokey "we're all just energy, death is just the energy taking a different form" platitude people come out with in the real world. Like, it's literally true that the atoms that make up a living human will go on to make up other objects after that person dies, but people frame this in a way that implies some sort of continuity for the individual's consciousness, or soul, in order to make the terrifying starkness of it comforting instead of upsetting. A less upbeat way of framing the wave metaphor is, like, "when you die, you're worm food". I honestly found these last couple of episodes disturbing. The idea that death is a desirable alternative to eternal mediocrity (and they literally call it death in this episode) is so leaky philosophically, and insofar as it's an arguable idea at all I don't think the show argues it well. Watching the characters line up to destroy themselves in order to escape the monotonity of eternal perfection jarred a little. It felt like the show landed somewhere between wanting to write a metaphor about death in real life, and wanting to honour the terms of their sci-fi premise, and landed with one foot on each side, doing an awkward euthanasia splits across the chasm.
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Jan 31, 2020 23:12
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I feel like the final episode of The Good Place was about saying goodbye to The Good Place. Edit: Not to imply that this invalidates other possible reads.
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Jan 31, 2020 23:18
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Arist posted:Humanism is a philosophical stance heavily associated with secularism in modern times. I have friends who are atheist humanists who are active in humanist and interfaith groups and who write books on the subject. I interpreted your posts with the knowledge I have gained from those relationships and the books they wrote.
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Jan 31, 2020 23:20
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Android Blues posted:Eh. To me it's functionally the same as the hokey "we're all just energy, death is just the energy taking a different form" platitude people come out with in the real world. Like, it's literally true that the atoms that make up a living human will go on to make up other objects after that person dies, but people frame this in a way that implies some sort of continuity for the individual's consciousness, or soul, in order to make the terrifying starkness of it comforting instead of upsetting. A less upbeat way of framing the wave metaphor is, like, "when you die, you're worm food". The show is about the afterlife, the existence of a soul is kind of baked into the premise. But yeah, thematically it feels awkwardly narrow in scope compared to the rest of the show.
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Jan 31, 2020 23:22
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As someone who didn't watch the Seth Meyers whatever I thought it was great. Jason taking off early made sense as he's always been the weakest character, and everyone else was handled well, EXCEPT I wanted to know more about Janet. She seemed to be in a weird position of "immortal being, but conscious enough to know her limitations." The scene of her in bed with Jason in her pajamas was actually kinda interesting to me cause I think that might have been the first time we've seen her out of her "Janet" uniform(apart from Earth shenanigans, I don't remember those episodes perfectly). Would've liked a tad more closure on her. Also Eleanor's departure was a tad abrupt, but the final scene leaves enough ambiguity to make up for it imo. All in all a finale I might actually watch again and a nice closure to everyone's journey. A-
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Jan 31, 2020 23:22
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I cried like a baby over an indecisive man making a decision and a Florida Man who loved a robot (not a robot) 10/10
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Jan 31, 2020 23:25
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Arist posted:There's no version of me that exists without ADHD. It's part of my literal being, and has been for my entire life.
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Jan 31, 2020 23:26
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Baller Ina posted:As someone who didn't watch the Seth Meyers whatever I thought it was great. Jason taking off early made sense as he's always been the weakest character, He's a simple man. All he needed to complete was his lifelong dreams of living in a hot wings shack and playing the perfect game of Madden. I respect that.
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Jan 31, 2020 23:27
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A person is the sum of their memories and experiences as filtered through their neurochemistry. No other model of selfhood holds fast.
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Jan 31, 2020 23:32
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Android Blues posted:Eh. To me it's functionally the same as the hokey "we're all just energy, death is just the energy taking a different form" platitude people come out with in the real world. Like, it's literally true that the atoms that make up a living human will go on to make up other objects after that person dies, but people frame this in a way that implies some sort of continuity for the individual's consciousness, or soul, in order to make the terrifying starkness of it comforting instead of upsetting. A less upbeat way of framing the wave metaphor is, like, "when you die, you're worm food". I mean the show posits it as something more than that, Eleanor specifically becomes something that pushes a person to do something nice. Like the positivity/morality they attained goes out into the universe, not just their atoms or whatnot. Obviously this is a viable metaphor if you insist on a strict materialist worldview- the good you do pushing other people to do good- but hey, for those irrational spiritual types among us it ain't too bad an idea either.
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Jan 31, 2020 23:53
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PostNouveau posted:Yes, but a Bearimy is circular, right? The Judge could always find the remote again after she's done with her ten millionth rewatch of Justified
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Feb 1, 2020 00:03
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I guess I didn't like it. I understand it's a nice way to say goodbye to the characters in a meta sense but the idea of an afterlife that's just a kinda poo poo holodeck ruled over by unexplained supernatural creatures is a bit boring to me. I mean gently caress, when they go to Athens why isn't Eleanor meeting actual ancient greeks, where IS Aristotle, why are they visiting Athens just in the now of the modern day? It's meh. I wanted more to be made of the idea that the system is broken and it still feels like they're just letting it be broken and sorting it out later, then everyone kills themselves? Android Blues posted:I honestly found these last couple of episodes disturbing. The idea that death is a desirable alternative to eternal mediocrity (and they literally call it death in this episode) is so leaky philosophically, and insofar as it's an arguable idea at all I don't think the show argues it well. Watching the characters line up to destroy themselves in order to escape the monotonity of eternal perfection jarred a little. It felt like the show landed somewhere between wanting to write a metaphor about death in real life, and wanting to honour the terms of their sci-fi premise, and landed with one foot on each side, doing an awkward euthanasia splits across the chasm. Yea, this is exactly how I felt.
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Feb 1, 2020 00:07
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There's a good discussion to be had about what eternity means or the non Buddhist equivalent of escaping the cycle of rebirth but the door isn't it. It is 100% suicide. The comparison to end of life euthanasia is grotseque to say the least. None of the cast were suffering, they weren't sick or unwell, they weren't physically or cognitively impaired or near the end of their lives. If they wanted to make a point about euthansia or assisted suicide then they should have aged the characters or shown that they weren't the same people they were before. Instead you have the same people who now have all their needs met, are clearly still healthy and happy, who still have meaningful relationships with people but got bored and decided to end it all. As one of the other posters pointed out, Tahani was the only person who understood the point of the show. Nobody should be forced to suffer for eternity but we have a responsibility to help and be good to the people around us. The fact that they're all dead doesn't matter because the door is clealy suppose to represent death. You're taken away out of existence from everybody and anybody who's ever known you. Janet even makes the point that even she doesn't know what happens to you after you go through the door in the same way that we don't know what the afterlife is going to be like. For a show where the main message was that we should keep trying to do good and help others because of what we owe to them, the ending is such a huge disconnect. What was the point of it all? That all you needed was to do a certain number of good acts or to act good for a certain amount of time and that's it?
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Feb 1, 2020 00:10
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I really don't know how so many of you could've watched the entire run of this show and insist it's loving advocating suicide
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Feb 1, 2020 00:14
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So what, if you're immortal you have an absolute moral duty to stick around for all of eternity, to not hurt other people's feelings?
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Feb 1, 2020 00:19
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We literally see Eleanor turn into something that has a positive effect on someone's behavior on Earth. That's what the door does. The exact nature of that little wisp isn't explained, but the good she did keeps on going.
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Feb 1, 2020 00:21
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A bunch of goons dramatically missing the point of something? Well I never!
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Feb 1, 2020 00:21
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demota posted:I feel like the final episode of The Good Place was about saying goodbye to The Good Place. The Good Place was the television show we made along the way?
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Feb 1, 2020 00:24
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Some Strange Flea posted:Better to end on a high, on your own terms, after achieving everything you set out to, than to allow yourself to spiritually decay by rehashing the same basic ideas indefinitely, simply because you “earned it” and are allowed to do so by powerful agents of dubious competence and character. It was already pretty meta back in season 1.
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Feb 1, 2020 00:25
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Also sending Michael to Earth as a 72 year old seems harsh, I'm saying.
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Feb 1, 2020 00:30
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