|
Okay so yall admit that the system is good and has improved
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 06:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 11:01 |
|
|
Has improved from what, V20? I guess, but it still has a bunch of holes in it (weak or weirdly-balanced disciplines, chargen disparity, poorly explained systems and power effects) and is stapled to an awful setting. I can see the appeal in hijacking elements of V5 from a Chronicles game but not so much in playing it straight.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 06:38
|
|
|
Some mechanics have improved, others have not. All of it is shackled to a questionable narrative framework and a metaplot that is extremely problematic at best. Ignoring everything I've underlined does not mean that you are a better or more mature gamer than the rest of us. It just means that you're unable to look at a book critically, and also callous to the real world harm caused by the media you consume. Did you even read the rest of my post beyond "Hunger Dice Are Interesting"?
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 06:44
|
|
|
Loomer posted:It is I, the turbofan, and I won't buy V5 products because of the baggage. The mechanical improvements are nice from what I've checked out in other people's copies, and even some of the metaplot stuff isn't the worst idea, but even as a huge fan of even the dumb, problematic oWoD stuff V5 crossed the boundary of not just good taste but of dangerous irresponsibility in media. The first is often necessary in the production of gothic-punk horror, the latter never is. I don't think Paradox have done enough to undo the damage, but all the very basic steps they've taken to try and distance themselves from what got V5 its reputation as a game for awful terrible people are going in the right direction, and it's what ultimately convinced me to give it a second look in the first place. The books under Swedracula were basically impossible to recommend, but now that he and his most egregious decisions have been removed, and now that the book has a whole appendix featuring tools and advice for considerate play, and, more specifically, how to deal with some of the heavier subjects that can come in play at the table, I feel like the basic mechanical framework that's in there is good enough to make V5 something worth considering.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 06:48
|
|
|
Metapod posted:Okay so yall admit that the system is good and has improved No.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 06:55
|
|
|
I don't really know that hunger dice and the attendant systems are an unalloyed good. It's nice to have a smoother and more gradual way to attach a dwindling blood pool to loss of self control, but the bestial failure/messy critical stuff can be very jarring in the wrong way, and having to roll to see how many MP your powers cost every time you use them is really clunky. You could've achieved similar effects by, say, making a vampire unable to fill their Vitae pool past their Humanity rating without killing someone in the process.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 07:03
|
|
|
Yeah, like I said, they're interesting, but they need work to turn them into something universally good. And the way they interact with bestial failures and messy crits means that if you're having a particularly unlucky night things rapidly turn from "Well I guess I can't contribute much tonight" to "Well I'm contributing a lot tonight but that's only because the plot now irrevocably revolves around my many failures and the rest of the table is glaring at me."
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 07:08
|
|
|
Mostly I dug lore sheets, to be honest, rather than hunger dice.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 07:22
|
|
|
Loomer posted:Mostly I dug lore sheets, to be honest, rather than hunger dice. I liked those a lot too, along with touchstones/convictions, and ambitions/desires. The latter mainly because I've played with many people that are aimless in the game and they at least have something they can look at and take action towards.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 07:34
|
|
|
And Loresheets are from Weapons of the Gods, Touchstones from VtR 2E...
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 07:40
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:I don't really know that hunger dice and the attendant systems are an unalloyed good. It's nice to have a smoother and more gradual way to attach a dwindling blood pool to loss of self control, but the bestial failure/messy critical stuff can be very jarring in the wrong way, and having to roll to see how many MP your powers cost every time you use them is really clunky. You could've achieved similar effects by, say, making a vampire unable to fill their Vitae pool past their Humanity rating without killing someone in the process. I feel like treating hunger as a blood pool or MP is a pretty strong misunderstanding of the mechanics. You aren't limited in how often you can use your powers, and a failed Hunger check does not stop you from using a power. Rather, using some powers comes with a risk of adding a Hunger die to the pool, adding the risk of bestial failure and messy crit to every subsequent skill check, and, past 4 Hunger, risk of Frenzy, and the game is about managing that risk, knowing that the only option that completely removes it is killing someone.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 07:43
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:And Loresheets are from Weapons of the Gods, Touchstones from VtR 2E... See, I'd have no way of knowing about either of these. I never got into Requiem at all. Hell, I didn't come back at all until V20.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 07:46
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:And Loresheets are from Weapons of the Gods, Touchstones from VtR 2E... And ambitions/desires are also just CofD/VTR 2e's Aspirations, though it's a simple enough rule that I can't imagine other games hadn't done the same before that too.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 07:59
|
|
|
I am increasingly convinced that the threadshitting that happens almost like clockwork in this thread is some kind of weird viral marketing campaign.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 09:23
|
|
|
Mendrian posted:I am increasingly convinced that the threadshitting that happens almost like clockwork in this thread is some kind of weird viral marketing campaign. For what, Requiem?
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 09:24
|
|
|
One day, all will realize VtR 2e is the light. Also, Don't Quote Metapod.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 09:30
|
|
|
Why would you defend V5 as opposed to doing literally anything else with your time
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 11:42
|
|
|
Loomer posted:It is I, the turbofan, and I won't buy V5 products because of the baggage. The mechanical improvements are nice from what I've checked out in other people's copies, and even some of the metaplot stuff isn't the worst idea, but even as a huge fan of even the dumb, problematic oWoD stuff V5 crossed the boundary of not just good taste but of dangerous irresponsibility in media. The first is often necessary in the production of gothic-punk horror, the latter never is. This but me.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 16:09
|
|
|
The Unlife Aquatic posted:One day, all will realize VtR 1e is the light.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 17:12
|
|
|
Are there any big books of Mage the Awakening NPCs that are any good on the OP community content thing? Trying to come up with a bunch of NPCs with their paths, shadow names, and legacies is always a big roadblock for me with Mage and having some pregens would be really nice.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 18:02
|
|
|
ElNarez posted:I feel like treating hunger as a blood pool or MP is a pretty strong misunderstanding of the mechanics. You aren't limited in how often you can use your powers, and a failed Hunger check does not stop you from using a power. Rather, using some powers comes with a risk of adding a Hunger die to the pool, adding the risk of bestial failure and messy crit to every subsequent skill check, and, past 4 Hunger, risk of Frenzy, and the game is about managing that risk, knowing that the only option that completely removes it is killing someone. Yeah this risk management system is so so incredibly good and increases tension You can actually play as what you are - a blood thirsty corpse that could snap at as moments notice instead of a goth kid with super powers. It's really nice not to have blood be a literal mana pool. The idea of "forcible arrest of my roleplay" is disingenuous
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 18:06
|
|
|
The Unlife Aquatic posted:One day, all will realize VtR 2e is the light. It's a fun game but no one will because theres no other media attached to requiem. Masquerade has video games and people actually know what it is Hell, it's a shame because I'd like to play requiem for rome with my group sometome but everyone prefers Masquerade because it's more streamlined and, like, actually known about
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 18:09
|
|
|
Loomer posted:Mostly I dug lore sheets, to be honest, rather than hunger dice. Lore sheets are so sick. Did you see the goon player made one upthread? It's so good
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 18:14
|
|
|
ElNarez posted:I feel like treating hunger as a blood pool or MP is a pretty strong misunderstanding of the mechanics. You aren't limited in how often you can use your powers, and a failed Hunger check does not stop you from using a power. Rather, using some powers comes with a risk of adding a Hunger die to the pool, adding the risk of bestial failure and messy crit to every subsequent skill check, and, past 4 Hunger, risk of Frenzy, and the game is about managing that risk, knowing that the only option that completely removes it is killing someone. Oberst posted:Yeah this risk management system is so so incredibly good and increases tension Yes, you are very much limited in your use of your powers. The innovation is that instead of some of your powers costing 0 blood and some of your powers costing 1 blood as compared against your pool of 10 blood points, almost all of your powers cost 1d2-1 blood points out of your pool of 5. You can't just keep spamming Disciplines once Hunger caps out because you're out of juice. Same poo poo! Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Feb 1, 2020 |
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 18:42
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:HEY OMNICROM WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS TO USO EWIN'S MOM!? Not really, no, because it's hosed up and highlights that Gundam has issues with women. The Unlife Aquatic posted:One day, all will realize VtR 2e is the light. I won't quote Metapod or their alter ego Oberst, instead I'll quote this.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 18:49
|
|
|
Idk what I did to be hated so much. All I say is I like v5 and explain why the reasons yall hate it so much dont impact the game at all. Nonetheless this causes a group of yall to call me a nazi/hitler/chub/fascist/alt right/whatever the meme bad guy word of the day is. It's very toxic and any new player that going to get into wod is going to be exposed to v5 first so I highly recommend changing your tactics if your goal is to get people into the games you like because no one is going to want to play the game people who yell your a nazi if you disagree with me play. I'm gonna keep yall in my prayers so my positive energy can help yall see the light I won't let yall fall to the darkness 🙏🙏🙏
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 18:50
|
|
|
By correctly identifying and treating me as a bad person, you are all, in fact, the bad people Really makes you think
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 18:58
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:Yes, you are very much limited in your use of your powers. The innovation is that instead of some of your powers costing 0 blood and some of your powers costing 1 blood as compared against your pool of 10 blood points, almost all of your powers cost 1d2-1 blood points out of your pool of 5. You can't just keep spamming Disciplines once Hunger caps out because you're out of juice. Same poo poo! Most of the one dot powers are free, and, for the rare few that aren't, you get to reroll the Rouse check if you're at Blood Potency 1, which is the default for non-thinbloods. Also you can still use powers at Hunger 5, but you have to roll for Frenzy whenever you see blood, taste blood, or fail a Rouse check. It's not a dead stop, it's just a whole lot of added risk.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 19:11
|
|
|
Joe Slowboat posted:Well that all sounds like 'Dark Eras but Significantly Worse.' Golden Age of Piracy is really loving great mostly because it's by Chris Allen / Acrozatarim, one of the best Mage writers and the best Werewolf writer imo. It's got krewes of ghosts, anti-colonialism, mages and sin-eaters hanging out, creepy pirate poo poo, Davy Jones as a reaper. The impetus for the setting is that there's a new nameless order of pirates with a supernal artifact that erodes symbolism of authority. The Silver Ladder has allied with the Seers over it, pissing off the rest of the Diamond. It's really well written and I'd recommend it alongside Acrozatarim's other major Mage work: the Sundered World from Dark Eras 1.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 19:14
|
|
|
ElNarez posted:Most of the one dot powers are free, and, for the rare few that aren't, you get to reroll the Rouse check if you're at Blood Potency 1, which is the default for non-thinbloods. Also you can still use powers at Hunger 5, but you have to roll for Frenzy whenever you see blood, taste blood, or fail a Rouse check. It's not a dead stop, it's just a whole lot of added risk. Yeah, and there are a bunch of free powers in every other edition of Vampire. The high-BP reroll is just the stochastic equivalent of having a higher blood pool; it means that some of your powers, instead of costing 0 or 1d2-1 or 2d2-2 (right? iirc there are a few "rouse the blood twice" costs at the higher levels), now cost 2d2-3 (min. 0). And I'm pretty sure you're wrong about the end of your post; I just looked it up and if your Hunger is 5 you cannot willingly rouse the blood (and risk frenzy if some external thing forces you to rouse the blood, presumably like seeing someone bleed in front of you or whatever). It'd be interesting if your power was effectively unlimited and you could just rouse forever even at 5 at the risk of frenzy. However, I also think it'd be worse, because it would turn blood from a material to a psychological need on vampires' parts and strip away or at least dramatically attenuate the economic aspects of vampirism and vampire society. The fact that vampires really do need us, and aren't just keeping score or entertaining or soothing themselves through us, has been an important part of all WW/OPP vampire games. (For an example of a predatory monster that really is all about the psychology, see Beast)
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 19:23
|
|
|
Octavo posted:Golden Age of Piracy is really loving great mostly because it's by Chris Allen / Acrozatarim, one of the best Mage writers and the best Werewolf writer imo. It's got krewes of ghosts, anti-colonialism, mages and sin-eaters hanging out, creepy pirate poo poo, Davy Jones as a reaper. The impetus for the setting is that there's a new nameless order of pirates with a supernal artifact that erodes symbolism of authority. The Silver Ladder has allied with the Seers over it, pissing off the rest of the Diamond. Thanks! I’m actually gearing up to play an actual player character in a Sundered World-based game soon; the ST is one of my long-term players in the Mage and Exalted games I’ve run, and has heavily missed the setting to be a few thousand years earlier (he’s very into prehistoric society, so it’s a very well-researched rewrite of the setting and I’m really looking forward to it). I also need to get my hands on To The Strongest, since I love the Greco-Indian contact of the Alexandrian era. Not so much for the wars as just the wild, multipolar Bronze Age world of the time.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 19:25
|
|
|
"I don't know why you're being so hostile and calling V5 a bad game, it's easy to be blind to actual human suffering inflicted by the media you consume when you exist in a position of privilege."-Metapod, 2020 It doesn't matter if someone's first exposure to World of Darkness is V5, because we can say "Hey V5 has problems but here's a good game that isn't built upon a foundation of real world human suffering."
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 19:49
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:Yeah, and there are a bunch of free powers in every other edition of Vampire. The high-BP reroll is just the stochastic equivalent of having a higher blood pool; it means that some of your powers, instead of costing 0 or 1d2-1 or 2d2-2 (right? iirc there are a few "rouse the blood twice" costs at the higher levels), now cost 2d2-3 (min. 0). And I'm pretty sure you're wrong about the end of your post; I just looked it up and if your Hunger is 5 you cannot willingly rouse the blood (and risk frenzy if some external thing forces you to rouse the blood, presumably like seeing someone bleed in front of you or whatever). I'm fully willing to admit I misread a rule, and considering everything else, including the metaphorical aspect, I do think I have. However, I do think that, because the process involves a random variable, the question underpinning the use of a skill isn't "can I afford to do it?", as it would be in the blood pool system, but "can I deal with the added hunger if I go through with it and the rouse check fails?", which you can get a lot more tension out of, and which leads to more dramatic outcomes. It's obfuscation in the service of creating a more interesting play situation, which I believe is a net good.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 19:50
|
|
|
I've got to say, I thought it was very weird when the last 200 pages were describing why Augusto Pinochet was a ventrue, but ultimately I'm interested in what the next manual will be.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 19:54
|
|
|
"Can I afford to spend the blood now and risk a frenzy check later" is basically how the blood pool system works. "Should I do a supernatural thing for short term gain at the risk of being a monster later" is the same system in both situations and their implementation is fairly nuanced. When people talk about 'hey I like hunger dice, at least', I mean, that's fair - but I hardly think that's a thing you can balance a whole edition on, given that realistically they both describe the same mechanical situation. Hunger dice are less predictable, I suppose, but not by a huge margin, and the tension in most vampire games comes from the situation that prompted the cost-benefit analysis in the first place and not the system itself.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 19:59
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:"I don't know why you're being so hostile and calling V5 a bad game, it's easy to be blind to actual human suffering inflicted by the media you consume when you exist in a position of privilege."-Metapod, 2020 The device that you used to post this has caused more real world human suffering than any tabletop game has ever caused
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 20:00
|
|
|
you all realize its just a game where you throw dice to do wesley snipes poo poo at npcs, right?
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 20:01
|
|
|
ElNarez posted:I'm fully willing to admit I misread a rule, and considering everything else, including the metaphorical aspect, I do think I have. However, I do think that, because the process involves a random variable, the question underpinning the use of a skill isn't "can I afford to do it?", as it would be in the blood pool system, but "can I deal with the added hunger if I go through with it and the rouse check fails?", which you can get a lot more tension out of, and which leads to more dramatic outcomes. It's obfuscation in the service of creating a more interesting play situation, which I believe is a net good. You're asking if you can afford to do it either way. There's always a gamble implicit in spending a blood point in Vampire because those blood points are also health levels and you generally need to spend blood to make blood, as it were, so any decision you make to conserve or expend blood in the moment might be saving or losing you blood in the long term, and that turns on both your future decisions, other players' (ST included) future decisions, whether rolls go your way, whatever. Spending your fifth blood point and going down to four ("hungry") in Requiem was a big gamble in lots of situations. Would it get more interesting if you flipped a coin each time you spent Vitae to see if that Vitae actually stayed in your pool? I guess it'd make you more inclined to gamble, and therefore more inclined to get into trouble because you were hoping the coin flip would go your way but it didn't, but if you actually are concerned with these things such that you're aware of the probabilities and consequences and playing with them in mind, I think the 50% chance to use a power for free actually reduces rather than increases the tension. Also I think it's more likely to annoy you than to create drama, because it's like, come on, I crashed through three walls without any consequence but somehow it's this fourth one that costs me? The fact that any coin you flip doesn't care about how many coins you flipped before it is actually a downside here. One thing I do think V5 does well, as I posted before, is create a continuum of consequences for being hungry between "nothing" and "fall into wassail", but it's nothing you couldn't duplicate in original Masquerade or Requiem by simply noting certain hunger levels and their softer consequences right on the blood track on the character sheet. Hell, you could literally track both Vitae and Hunger in order to avoid clumsy "Your Blood Potency minus your current Vitae plus five" or w/e phrasing.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 20:02
|
|
|
Metapod posted:The device that you used to post this has caused more real world human suffering than any tabletop game has ever caused
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 20:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 11:01 |
|
|
Metapod posted:The device that you used to post this has caused more real world human suffering than any tabletop game has ever caused Right, but since global capitalism entrenches and exploits hierarchies of race, gender, and so on in order to sustain and strengthen itself, if you decide to turn a blind eye to misogyny and homophobia you are in a very real sense helping the pillage of the third world to continue unabated.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2020 20:05
|
|