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There are definitely plenty of people who are unaware of or indifferent to the atrocities committed in Vietnam. And lots more who think "we could have won if it wasn't for ___". I'd say it's a safe bet that most boomers hate Jane Fonda more than Henry Kissinger.
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Feb 1, 2020 08:26
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I think you're overthinking this. Go to bed, tomorrow they'll be fixating on Sanders leaving a civil rights demonstration early in 1968* or something (*Sanders left the rally early to save 20 orphans from a raging fire)
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Feb 1, 2020 08:26
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Y'all are reading this like it's just Sanders saying "Vietnam was a really bad war" and maybe that's all people are going to take from it. Like I really loving hope so, anyway. But that's not what he said: he was calling out our actions there and the actions of our soldiers, and woo boy is that another kettle of fish. Saying America was morally wrong? Bad. Comparing America to Nazi Germany? Uh pretty loving bad, actually. Comparing US soldiers to loving Hitler? I mean I don't disagree, to be absolutely clear - look at Gallagher. But it's pretty loving bad. I think he can count among his base the people who are least likely to give a poo poo, or those who will even agree. But that's not his entire coalition, and this is a close race. It's going to be a long weekend.
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Feb 1, 2020 08:33
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I posted this today: https://twitter.com/RollingStone/status/1223331130050596864?s=20 Bernie has the most credibility on foreign policy and war at this point. He has support from the troops and from people opposed to war in general (which is most of the Dem base at this point), and Iowa Dems are not hardcore HOORAH ARE TROOPS types in the first place. Beyond that here's the major papers currently running with the "Bernie criticized the Vietnam War!!!1!1!" story: The Daily Caller, The Washington Examiner, The National Review, and The Washington Free Beacon. This story isn't even getting in front of Dems to begin with, it's being used to rile up chuds about those commie pinkos on the left.
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Feb 1, 2020 08:34
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:I don't know. The Vietnam poo poo worries me and might have legs. Particularly in Iowa I could see it making a difference. I know that you're just making an observation and not taking a stance or anything, but I look forward to telling a whole new generation about what we did at Mỹ Lai. Just gonna really lean into that poo poo. I think people's understanding of why people disliked Vietnam is conflated way too heavily with the Love & Peace counterculture going on at the time. No, it wasn't just that the hippies were enamored with the "War=Bad" rhetoric, there were some grotesque war crimes going on, too.
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Feb 1, 2020 08:38
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exquisite tea posted:Man I forgot the Warren sexist attack from a thousand years ago was in January. And the 850-year old "nobody likes him" comment raised $4mil in two days. Right? There's no way he pulled in less that $35 million; every time some rear end in a top hat opened her or his mouth that was good for a $2 million day. And a lot of assholes opened their mouths last month.
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Feb 1, 2020 08:38
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:I don't know. The Vietnam poo poo worries me and might have legs. Particularly in Iowa I could see it making a difference. Hey its me, the under 60 who thinks the Vietnam War was a good thing that reflected well on the country Vietnam was famously the war where even the people in favor of it got mad about political interference and roundly condemned the government over it. Even warmongers don't like that particular war. Only the people swept up in the Red Scare will actually defend it as 'necessary to contain the commies' and they were never going to vote for the avowed socialist to begin with Nix Panicus fucked around with this message at 08:45 on Feb 1, 2020 |
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Feb 1, 2020 08:39
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Yeah I'm not really worried about Rashida making GBS threads on Hillary tbh. The Vietnam thing I'm worried about because for a lot of people even if they hate war and think Vietnam was a bad idea, suggesting that America is fallible to that extent could be out of bounds for them. Even for like center-left Democrats who have already made up their mind to vote for Bernie, it could cause them to reconsider. Corbeau posted:Last I checked, Americans do not look back fondly on the Vietnam War. yah, this (corbeau). there was a draft during the war, and everyone hated it except the richies who could buy their way out of it. Opposing the war now is low-hanging fruit, especially since the WW2 vets died off.
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Feb 1, 2020 08:41
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You know how this could hurt Bernie? If Bernie were a wishy-washy candidate who crumbled at the first sign of criticism and started backtracking and apologizing. But he isn't. You come at him with this and he's just going to pivot to talking about war being an atrocity and how dumping trillions into killing people abroad while our infrastructure crumbles at home etc etc etc. This attack just lets him go right into his stump speech and his opponents aren't going to pick it up because they know it would just be pointing out one of Bernie's strengths and highlighting their own weaknesses, which is the opposite of what they'll want to do. And if the other Dems aren't laying into him with it, it's going to wither away just like the latest O'Keefe video.
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Feb 1, 2020 08:41
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like, even Robert McNamara thought our involvement was a mistake.quote:Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara, who argued successfully to escalate American involvement in the Vietnam War, now says in a new book that both the Kennedy and Johnson administrations were 'terribly wrong' not to get out. After a quarter century of silence on the subject, the man who was at the center of the prosecution of the war through most of the 1960s blames himself for not pushing the Johnson administration more to debate the military and diplomatic opportunities to end the war or neutralize South Vietnam. The McNamara book, 'In Retrospect, The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam,' is being excerpted in the this week's edition of Newsweek Magazine and was reviewed Sunday on the front pages of The Washington Post and The New York Times. 'We of the Kennedy and Johnson administrations who participated in the decisions on Vietnam acted according to what we thought were the principles and traditions of this nation,' McNamara wrote. 'We made our decisions in light of those values. Yet we were wrong, terribly wrong. We owe it to future generations to explain why.' McNamara, now 78, was a major hawk during crucial years when the path of war policy was being decided, pushing for greater American military involvement in the middle of the 1960s when there fewer than 300 American casualties. By the end of the war in 1975 Vietnam had claimed more than 58,000 American lives, had precipitated a major inflationary cycle in the American economy and produced deep divisions and skepticism about government among Americans that continue to influence military and domestic policy. He wrote that book in the mid-1990s.
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Feb 1, 2020 08:45
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Y'all are reading this like it's just Sanders saying "Vietnam was a really bad war" and maybe that's all people are going to take from it. Like I really loving hope so, anyway. But that's not what he said: he was calling out our actions there and the actions of our soldiers, and woo boy is that another kettle of fish. Saying America was morally wrong? Bad. Comparing America to Nazi Germany? Uh pretty loving bad, actually. Comparing US soldiers to loving Hitler? I mean I don't disagree, to be absolutely clear - look at Gallagher. But it's pretty loving bad. The fact MLK made similar statements is good cover for those that would actually care. Consider of the people who would still care about the honor of Vietnam how many of them vote Democratic?
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Feb 1, 2020 08:54
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Wicked Them Beats posted:You know how this could hurt Bernie? If Bernie were a wishy-washy candidate who crumbled at the first sign of criticism and started backtracking and apologizing. But he isn't. You come at him with this and he's just going to pivot to talking about war being an atrocity and how dumping trillions into killing people abroad while our infrastructure crumbles at home etc etc etc. This attack just lets him go right into his stump speech and his opponents aren't going to pick it up because they know it would just be pointing out one of Bernie's strengths and highlighting their own weaknesses, which is the opposite of what they'll want to do. And if the other Dems aren't laying into him with it, it's going to wither away just like the latest O'Keefe video. Exactly. "Mr. Sanders, is it true that you said the Vietnam war was bad and we should have never been involved?" "You're drat right I did, and I'll say it again now. War is an atrocity in the first place, and Vietnam was worse than most."
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Feb 1, 2020 09:11
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This could only hurt Bernie if Kerry goes after him, and poof, there goes the critical people-who-give-a-gently caress-what-Kerry-has-to-say vote.
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Feb 1, 2020 09:48
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I'm really glad that owning the libs has come full-circle and now even libs themselves are starting to see how insane and easily-ownable all these Hillary defenders are. Like, god drat https://twitter.com/riotwomennn/status/1223246826868035584
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Feb 1, 2020 10:07
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Yeah I'm not really worried about Rashida making GBS threads on Hillary tbh. The Vietnam thing I'm worried about because for a lot of people even if they hate war and think Vietnam was a bad idea, suggesting that America is fallible to that extent could be out of bounds for them. Even for like center-left Democrats who have already made up their mind to vote for Bernie, it could cause them to reconsider. Lmao at this handwringing  bullshit.Trump insulted "war hero" McCain and a Gold Star family, and that only made him more popular with the Republican voters. So long as you don't back down and stick to your guns, you can get away with saying pretty much anything you want. Especially when you are speaking is the truth, like Bernie is about the Vietnam war. JosephWongKS fucked around with this message at 11:14 on Feb 1, 2020 |
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Feb 1, 2020 10:42
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Paradoxish posted:I'm an old millennial who has literally veered farther and farther to the left as my income has gone up.
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Feb 1, 2020 11:10
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:I'm really glad that owning the libs has come full-circle and now even libs themselves are starting to see how insane and easily-ownable all these Hillary defenders are. Like, god drat "don't vote your heart" wow what a powerful, stirring campaign slogan.
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Feb 1, 2020 11:16
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Paradoxish posted:I'm an old millennial who has literally veered farther and farther to the left as my income has gone up. Pretty much here too. I’ll pay more in taxes but I actually want a functioning country and society I live in that does better for all its people and the world. The system as it is needs to be broken and replaced.
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Feb 1, 2020 11:16
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https://twitter.com/cushbomb/status/1223308813098459138
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Feb 1, 2020 13:08
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Office Pig posted:Idiots and rich people loving like Hillary Clinton. Fixed
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Feb 1, 2020 13:41
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lmao https://twitter.com/Devon_OnEarth/status/1221826543619584000
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Feb 1, 2020 14:03
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Paradoxish posted:I'm an old millennial who has literally veered farther and farther to the left as my income has gone up. Same. Few things give me greater pleasure than to openly yell at people whining about taxes.
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Feb 1, 2020 14:11
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Solkanar512 posted:Same. Few things give me greater pleasure than to openly yell at people whining about taxes. As a 34 y/o millennial I too keep veering further and further left.
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Feb 1, 2020 14:17
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https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts/status/1223451406578774017?s=19 https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts/status/1223483272346210305?s=19 Won't somebody think of the people who actively try to make things worse for everyone!? 
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Feb 1, 2020 14:20
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ratbert90 posted:As a 34 y/o millennial I too keep veering further and further left. loving  as one at 30Trump only accelerated this process as well
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Feb 1, 2020 14:22
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TulliusCicero posted:loving drat straight. The impeding dread of “If I lose my job I would be so hosed from medical bills I would be better off dead than alive just so my family could keep going” is sure one hell of a motivator to vote for the guy who is saying: Yeah, let’s not do that anymore.
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Feb 1, 2020 14:23
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https://twitter.com/LLW902/status/1223600632482889729?s=20
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Feb 1, 2020 14:54
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I've noticed that anytime someone criticises her for trying to rip into Bernie, the immediate response is "She's not running for president, she's a private citizen!" Like that's some sort of magical Everything-Proof shield.
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Feb 1, 2020 14:58
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Honestly, if I didn't know how little self awareness Clinton has, I'd swear she was trying to make Bernie win. Her attacking him is the best thing ever
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Feb 1, 2020 14:59
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oxsnard posted:Honestly, if I didn't know how little self awareness Clinton has, I'd swear she was trying to make Bernie win. Her attacking him is the best thing ever A person who wrote off Michigan and Wisconsin because they were anointed already has no self awareness I'm surprised she waited this long tbh. She clearly always blamed and hated Bernie for loving everything, maybe even more so than Trump honestly Trump and Clinton were always perfect for each other: two completely unlikable narcissists with die-hard hanger ons and syncophants TulliusCicero fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Feb 1, 2020 |
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Feb 1, 2020 15:01
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oxsnard posted:Honestly, if I didn't know how little self awareness Clinton has, I'd swear she was trying to make Bernie win. Her attacking him is the best thing ever TulliusCicero posted:A person who wrote off Michigan and Wisconsin because she was anointed already has no self awareness Hillary Clinton still impresses me. She's like the Chernobyl nuclear accident, there are just layers of what the gently caress. She's the soulless establishment machine candidate... who never understood how the political machine worked at a basic level. She lost to Obama in part because she apparently didn't actually understand how the Democratic nomination process even worked on a nuts and bolts "how you actually get delegates" level. Then she lost to Trump in the electoral college - the thing that actually decides who is president - because the concept of focusing effort on the swing states that decide the outcome was dropped in favor of running up the popular vote score in states that were basically all locked into R or D already. Her entire career has been predicated on a triangulation strategy that only worked in the 1990s because the re-alignment of the parties instigated by LBJ and Nixon in the late 1960s hadn't fully solidified yet (e.g. Texas still had a Democratic governor until 1994). By 2000 it was obsolete even if you were a soulless machine politician, but she kept loving that chicken anyway. The end result of trying to pander to the largest mass of American voters possible by threading the needle on every issue... has been to make most people dislike her. e: It's genuinely amazing how we all dislike her here for essentially being a Republican with the pointy parts rounded off, while every conservative in the country seems fully convinced that she's a full bore Marxist. It's like some kind of Reverse Horseshoe Theory playing out - having no real ideology has convinced everybody she has whatever the opposite of their own ideology is. sean10mm fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Feb 1, 2020 |
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Feb 1, 2020 15:08
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Mr Ice Cream Glove posted:Meanwhile on other side of FEC Mark Levin? No, no I'm Mintz Levin. Pronounced Leveen.
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Feb 1, 2020 15:14
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https://twitter.com/MarcACaputo/status/1223579534907277313?s=19
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Feb 1, 2020 15:25
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Well that's depressing (luckily it won't matter)
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Feb 1, 2020 15:27
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So Rashida Tlaib (who is my state Rep and overall great person) is apparently walking back her statement a bit on twitter today Like I get "party unity" or whatever, but Jesus gently caress am I sick of actual Left people having to grovel and kiss the ring of Queen Hillary Clinton, First of her name, Liege-Lady of the Liberals and the Blue-checkmarks, Ruler of No One Like, this is a person who has NEVER won an election she didn't already have either huge advantages (New York Senate) or outright rigged. She has NEVER actually loving won anything. Why does ANYONE on any planet give a poo poo what she thinks? TulliusCicero fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Feb 1, 2020 |
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Feb 1, 2020 15:38
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It's pretty hosed that Clinton is making GBS threads over the likely nominee like this. Doesn't she worry it will hurt him against Trump?
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Feb 1, 2020 15:40
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TulliusCicero posted:So Rashida Tlaib (who is my state Rep and overall great person) is apparently walking back her statement a bit on twitter today eh as long as she doesn't go full apology/'I was wrong' I'm fine, more people will see the hilarious 'nah we're gonna boo actually' clip than a twitter 'okay maybe we shouldn't be booing each other' walk back
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Feb 1, 2020 15:46
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For reference this is the walkback https://twitter.com/RashidaTlaib/status/1223614637247205377 She smartly frames it as being defensive of the movement and furthers the point that the 'berniebro' poo poo absolutely DOES erase the countless women, people of color, and other groups involved in the campaign.
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Feb 1, 2020 15:48
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sexpig by night posted:eh as long as she doesn't go full apology/'I was wrong' I'm fine, more people will see the hilarious 'nah we're gonna boo actually' clip than a twitter 'okay maybe we shouldn't be booing each other' walk back Yeah, you're not gonna like her statement. https://twitter.com/RashidaTlaib/status/1223614638224478210 https://twitter.com/RashidaTlaib/status/1223614640460005377
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Feb 1, 2020 15:49
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King of Solomon posted:Yeah, you're not gonna like her statement. Nah she keeps the focus on the campaign and all rather than the useless Clinton types who cried about it, it's a perfectly fine walk back that does nothing either way. The clinton types will be angry no matter what, everyone else will see the video more than the tweets, it doesn't mean too much.
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Feb 1, 2020 15:53
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