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Save scumming actually gives the best experience because then you get to see both the failure state and the sucess state of an event. 
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Jan 31, 2020 13:48
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Reveilled posted:Not on time passed exactly, but frequently there’s ways to unlock a check if you go away, do something else, and come back. The FELD building, or the wall painting, as examples. yeah thats not the same thing at all
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Jan 31, 2020 13:49
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Berke Negri posted:checks do not re-open on time passed, so no, there's only two options in game (skill point, or thought catalog resetting things) or save scum White checks also open when you acquire a modifier to it. So very often you can go talk to some other people, find out some relevant info which will give you a modifier and thus unlock a previous check. That's the primary way to unlock white checks.
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Jan 31, 2020 13:49
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Jack Trades posted:White checks also open when you acquire a modifier to it. So very often you can go talk to some other people, find out some relevant info which will give you a modifier and thus unlock a previous check. That's the primary way to unlock white checks. yeah i get that im just saying a day passes give another shot in the end i think the system works pretty good but with more *waves hand vaguely* time in there cause its pretty easy to mine most the case by day 4 or so if youre going boring cop even if youre biffing a lot of checks and its the sidequests that really flesh out the game that are easier to miss
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Jan 31, 2020 13:54
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Berke Negri posted:yeah thats not the same thing at all They also re open if you gain new circumstantial bonuses so what happens is you fail, go "gently caress what went wrong here, what is this thing, why am I bothering" and go explore the world and shake down NPC's for info and then come back knowing more so you do better. It's not designed just to make you save scum, people just do that because they want satisfaction now, which hey I did it on one check myself because it was late and I wanted to go to sleep but I had to know what the gently caress that was on the church radio computer.
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Jan 31, 2020 13:55
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Berke Negri posted:yeah thats not the same thing at all So, what, some completely arbitrary timer I have to wait out to retry the check? How does that disincentiveise savescumming? Like, when I save scummed white checks, I’d fail a check, pop a point into the skill, try again, and reload a save if I didn’t get it in a few points. “Wait ten minutes between attempts” would just have had me reloading for every attempt. I just don’t follow the logic on how a timer would work to discourage players considering save scumming from doing it.
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Jan 31, 2020 13:57
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Reveilled posted:So, what, some completely arbitrary timer I have to wait out to retry the check? How does that disincentiveise savescumming? youll never not have save scumming unless you just lock saving i was just talking about white checks which basically end up like (out side a few) bong you got it wrong come back later i just meant like some x amount of in game time after conversation (like come back in an hour or come back tomorrow whatever) all red checks have different results depending on success and failure and some of them are better to fail for whats its worth, those should stay the same
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Jan 31, 2020 14:03
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If I made any changes to the game, and I wouldn’t because I’m not the developer, I’d simply not allow skill points to be hoarded.
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Jan 31, 2020 14:04
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i dont think that's possible but they did kind of do that by not letting you spend points mid conversation in a patch
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Jan 31, 2020 14:07
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Berke Negri posted:i dont think that's possible but they did kind of do that by not letting you spend points mid conversation in a patch Oh I know, but I figure we're all spitballing changes we'd do in the driver's seat. I spend skill-points as soon as I get them and, if I can't make a white check, so be it. There is the rare one I'll save-scum, but save scumming will happen in any game that features quicksave/quickload keys. But I prefer to build my character as I wish, then let his strengths and weaknesses speak for themselves.
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Jan 31, 2020 14:16
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i think percentages will kind of undermine everything cause even a like 97% gets you an errant fail i dont generally like rng checks for things i want to roleplay as but it oddly works for this game but yeah i just meant giving people tries without dumping points in skills they dont want for their character for white checks
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Jan 31, 2020 14:20
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Berke Negri posted:youll never not have save scumming unless you just lock saving i was just talking about white checks which basically end up like (out side a few) bong you got it wrong come back later Would it not make more sense though to have that in addition to unlocking with points, instead of replacing one system with the other?
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Jan 31, 2020 14:22
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I will say that I fail more 97% checks than should be allowed. Without the Precarious World thought. I think a 3% chance should only happen one time in a playthrough, and that once you fail the check once (assuming you don't reload) you won't fail again and the bias would work in the player's flavor while still giving chance based gameplay.
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Jan 31, 2020 14:22
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I'm definitely in the camp of at least half the white checks in the game being boring to fail. Not always worthless, but usually just a quick gag. Of those that aren't just boring to fail I guess... Some are just "You aren't specced in this so you don't get this reward." like the container, or shoplifting stuff, or doing graffiti. And some are interesting to not have done that thing but with the option to spend and refocus on (most of the investigation/autopsy checks frex.) And some are checks of have you done sidequests, which is what I assume things like Authority on Titus are. EDIT : And yeah, I like being able to spend a point to suck less and try again. Otherwise I'll just savescum and spend which I think is worse as it means I'm constantly saving. But would like to be able to go "I'm not super bothered about this thing, I'll look at it tomorrow." and if I never pass, I can live with it because when you play Intellect 2 you are not good at art. Tylana fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Jan 31, 2020 |
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Jan 31, 2020 14:24
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Reveilled posted:Would it not make more sense though to have that in addition to unlocking with points, instead of replacing one system with the other? i mean sure if you want
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Jan 31, 2020 14:25
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I relentlessly savescummed white checks I was sure didn't matter, especially if they used skills I didn't care about. The only important thing I would have savescummed (but didn't need to) was the dance party. It was vital to my entire self concept that I succeed there.
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Jan 31, 2020 15:16
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I think a good mod would be a button to click, in dialogue, to spend a point on the stat for the check and succeed automatically. Require spending it before the roll.
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Jan 31, 2020 15:23
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I tried to savescum my last chance to call out the cryptofascist about the dumpster but he just peaced out of Whirling in Rags when I loaded the save.
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Jan 31, 2020 15:24
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I feel that the red check vs. white check thing is mostly a result of focusing developer effort. You have red checks when the devs had the time to build an interesting alternate progression path for the failure. And the places where that alternate progression was too difficult to write we have white checks.
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Jan 31, 2020 16:38
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Much simpler than that imo. Red checks are designed to build tension. Usually happen in convos you can't back out of. Whatever your skill was and your clothing choice, that's all you get. Roll the bones. They have interesting fail-forward states because you shouldn't be penalized for failing the roll. White checks are designed for the player to have their fun from winning the roll. You can retry them, so you will. Which also means you will try to roll them when your chances are low - what's the worst that could happen? This means every so often you'll roll the double sixes and be stoked. They are also meant to make you go to someone else and then return (the modifiers) - this allows the game to be more reactive, and incentivizes the player not to exhaust all options in conversation with a certain person. Finally, they incentivize you to not forget to put points into skills - and high skills are the majority of the content of the game.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:34
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It also creates an interesting dynamic in skill checks - you can have a high skill and roll good on a devilishly hard check, and have an interesting Eureka moment of your character being a badass because of your build - or, if you fail, and go somewhere else, you meticulously build a theory (as the player) while building the modifers. When you return, not only do you get the satisfaction of seeing your hard work unlock the check with modifiers, and have the check be easier, but you also (as the player) often have already figured most of what you're gonna get out, which makes you feel very clever when you roll, succeed, and get your suspicions confirmed by the game. The one thing I would change is: white checks shouldn't have critical failures. If 2 is enough to pass the check, it should auto-pass (100% rate), imo.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:39
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If we're talking about the skill system and checks, I want to get it off my chest: I think the clothing system is bad I mean, it's fun to make Detective Cousteau look goofy, and the items themselves have good flavor text and everything, but the actual mechanic means that when I come up to an interesting check in a dialogue tree I'm kind of encouraged to back out of the tree, change my clothes, talk to them again, repeat the old dialogue, and then do the check, which kills the pacing a bit and draws attention to the more video-gamey stuff like being able to repeat conversations exactly. I don't know what the best way to fix it is. Lock you into an outfit when you get dressed in the morning?
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Jan 31, 2020 17:43
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Yeah the clothing bonuses system was pretty dumb.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:44
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It was a little clumsy, but very useful in making things happen and rewarding exploration. If someone has an alternative that is more fun, great, but just cutting it takes a lot of out of the game.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:45
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I just went flying backwards into a lady in a wheelchair while giving the double bird to the manager. Good thing the weekend is coming up, this is hilarious.
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Jan 31, 2020 18:00
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https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2020/01/31/disco-elysiums-hardcore-mode-is-just-one-way-games-can-meaningfully-explore-poverty/ D I S C O U R S E
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Jan 31, 2020 18:14
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that article posted:Depending on where you grew up, a used lottery ticket full of catpiss-smelling chemicals is often easier to get delivered than a takeaway pizza. In Disco Elysium, such chemicals are made fun of, demystified. Normalisation doesn’t have to equate to endorsement. Harry is a joy to play as, but he’s also an absolute shambles of human being. Drugs can be hilarious or tragic, beautiful or destructive. Portray only one side and, much like the book murderer, you’re missing half the story. So I come from a different experience than this person, because I hardcore hate drugs. I grew up in a family that abused alcohol, I know people who died of overdoses, and I've given the side-eye to a lot of party drugs and seeing how my friends change on them. So when people talk about how drugs can be good or bad, my response is "No, they're bad BECAUSE they're so good, and they easily foster dependency." The part where he quotes Ruby for saying that drugs don't cause addiction, hopelessness does, is only partly true: these drugs DO have an addictive component with withdrawal effects, that's definitely exacerbated with things like depression or poverty, but are formidable on their own. I don't know, what I liked about Disco Elysium was how it didn't shy away from showing drugs as being this lovely thing that makes yoi feel great and is really tempting to use, not that it's something that's good or bad depending on the context, even though I suppose that is partly true.
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Jan 31, 2020 18:26
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Spun Dog posted:I just went flying backwards into a lady in a wheelchair while giving the double bird to the manager. That was a DISS-KO MOVE
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Jan 31, 2020 19:46
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UnknownMercenary posted:IIRC you can get more info out of her if manage to investigate the drug smuggling ring enough to find tangible evidence and share some with her. Pretty sure that's how I learned all about the tribunal and the third mercenary. Oh i knew i should have pressed Everett more on that.
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Jan 31, 2020 21:18
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twistedmentat posted:Oh i knew i should have pressed Everett more on that. You can do that entire line without talking to him once. If you take the mission from Joyce, she gives you a clue as to where to start.
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Jan 31, 2020 22:21
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bobtheconqueror posted:You can do that entire line without talking to him once. If you take the mission from Joyce, she gives you a clue as to where to start. Weird, I never got her to give me that. I learned about it from talking to Everett. Maybe i failed a passive check or something.
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Feb 1, 2020 02:44
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twistedmentat posted:Weird, I never got her to give me that. I learned about it from talking to Everett. Maybe i failed a passive check or something. Basically, it's the job she wants done before she'll talk to you without your badge, kind of like how Everart wants you to open a door in order to start working on getting your gun back. I suppose it's possible you just said "Oh I'll get my badge then." Pretty sure you can do that in the first convo with her.
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Feb 1, 2020 05:36
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bobtheconqueror posted:Basically, it's the job she wants done before she'll talk to you without your badge, kind of like how Everart wants you to open a door in order to start working on getting your gun back. You can say that, but when you come back with it she'll just say "that's good but I've decided I'm still not gonna tell you anything unless you investigate this for me anyway". Although I'm not sure what she does if you just never talk to her until after you find your badge, since you could just show it to her right away and never admit that you lost it.
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Feb 1, 2020 07:19
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Xanderkish posted:Are there any primarily text-based RPG's you like? I'm noticing that you seem to prefer games where the writing is mostly the dialogue. If you haven't played Planescape Torment that's the main one. If you like this game you'll like that. Knights of the Old Republic 2 also. Maybe I should've said a reoccurring Avallone theme because I can name a bunch of companions in games he's worked on too that have it.
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Feb 1, 2020 09:10
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The Cheshire Cat posted:You can say that, but when you come back with it she'll just say "that's good but I've decided I'm still not gonna tell you anything unless you investigate this for me anyway". Yea that's exactly the state I was in. I got my badge and she just said lol no still not going to tell you and that was as far as I could go with her. Ah well, lots of incentives to play again. BTW I never found more than one bullet.
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Feb 1, 2020 09:20
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Where did you find that bullet?
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Feb 1, 2020 09:41
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i found 3 bullets
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Feb 1, 2020 10:10
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I beat this game today and I it was very good and I cried a few times. Mostly because of the dream sequence towards to end. I read here that some people on Vice felt that sequence came out of nowhere, which boggles my mind. I was primarily trying to play as Harry being really sorry about everything, constantly, and trying to be a better person. I experienced numerous dialogues about the 'ex something' and the apricot scented one. For me, the last dream was more important to Harry's story than solving the murder. This world is very interesting and I am very excited for more stories in it, whatever form they may take. Doing the doomed commercial district stuff, then half the stuff in the church THEN getting the nature of reality talk from Joyce was, for me, the ideal way to get that information. Everything was having a reasonable explanation, then suddenly things got weird. Then I talked to Joyce and realized that I had completely mistaken what kind of setting this game took place in. I ended up with a theory that Harry was so loving depressed and hosed up he independently connected with the pale and hosed his memory, but who knows. I don't think the Phasmid entirely contradicts that theory, but it was a bit hard to follow what it was telling me. Oh and Rigorous Self-critique is some of the best and most heartbreaking writing I've ever seen in a game.
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Feb 1, 2020 10:23
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PringleCreamEgg posted:Mostly because of the dream sequence towards to end Holy poo poo I had no idea this was a thing. Why would I ever choose to sleep in that ratty old bed while I had full stats? loving hell! Am playing it right now, can't believe I missed this.
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Feb 1, 2020 14:17
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i feel like a lot of people missed that, first time i mean though the game is like "hey sleep here, you should probably sleep here?" you're probably early in the day and not really thinking you need to go take a nap
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Feb 1, 2020 14:55
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