Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

ChocNitty posted:

How come there is no specific name for the ancient greek/roman religion?

The Greeks and Romans themselves didn�t really draw a sharp distinction between their own religion and other people�s. They tended to see other people�s gods as their own gods under different names: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca

Sometimes they were actually right about this, in a sense! The cults of similar gods sometimes did have a common origin. In other cases the parallels were a stretch. And where they didn�t find parallels, they were often willing to add the cults of new gods. The extent to which this syncretism should be considered a form of �tolerance� is sometimes overstated, but that�s a complicated subject in itself.

There wasn�t enough of a distinction made at the time between �Greek religion,� �Roman religion,� �Egyptian religion,� etc. for terminology to strictly delineate them to emerge, for the most part. The distinction that seemed more important at the time was between Jewish (and later Christian) monotheism and everyone else�s polytheism.

# ? Feb 2, 2020 05:45

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# ? May 10, 2024 02:37

Jeb Bush 2012: Apr 4, 2007; A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

Comstar posted:

Ask most miniature wargamers about going to the trouble of painting their figures. It can cost more for someone to paint the figures for you, and there was no way I can see that anyone rich enough to have a stature would be painting it themselves. I bet a lot of the unpainted ones were left like that because it was an optional extra cost.

that's because modern production techniques mean making a figure is very cheap compared to the cost of paying someone to hand-paint one, though. I would expect that the cost of a statue would've been much higher relative to the cost of painting it

# ? Feb 2, 2020 05:49

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

cheetah7071 posted:

The idea of "I have my beliefs, which are right, and people who believe otherwise are wrong and should be converted" is surprisingly rare in the ancient world.

Arguably the idea was actually quite common - it just wasn�t called �religion,� but �philosophy�!

But even then, the disagreement was mostly intellectual - I don�t believe it was ever actually illegal to be an Epicurean.

# ? Feb 2, 2020 05:51

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

I should probably also qualify that with conformity mattering within the community--there was a reason the charge against Socrates was atheism. It was very common to believe that if the whole community didn't participate in the communal relationship with the gods, then the community itself would be punished. You just didn't tend to go proselytizing your community's method of interfacing with the supernatural. We have our method, the other people have theirs. Beliefs that are personal (as in, you might be converted to it and believe something different from your neighbors) instead of community-based did exist throughout recorded history (buddhism and zoroastrianism are both quite old) but they took a very long time to become dominant

# ? Feb 2, 2020 06:04

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

Anaxogoras got driven out of Athens for impiety due to his various astronomical theories, like eclipses being caused by the relative positions of the moon and sun, the moon shining because of reflected sunlight, and the sun being an enormous white-hot mass of molten metal bigger than all of Greece put together, with pieces that occasionally get flung off which land as meteorites

# ? Feb 2, 2020 06:11

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

cheetah7071 posted:

I should probably also qualify that with conformity mattering within the community--there was a reason the charge against Socrates was atheism. It was very common to believe that if the whole community didn't participate in the communal relationship with the gods, then the community itself would be punished. You just didn't tend to go proselytizing your community's method of interfacing with the supernatural. We have our method, the other people have theirs. Beliefs that are personal (as in, you might be converted to it and believe something different from your neighbors) instead of community-based did exist throughout recorded history (buddhism and zoroastrianism are both quite old) but they took a very long time to become dominant

This is an important qualification, yeah. Although I would add a qualification to the qualification: There were people who converted to a personal faith in Mithras, Isis, or even Dionysus. It just wasn't mutually exclusive with participation in the mainstream civic religion.

# ? Feb 2, 2020 06:29

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Tunicate posted:

Anaxogoras got driven out of Athens for impiety due to his various astronomical theories, like eclipses being caused by the relative positions of the moon and sun, the moon shining because of reflected sunlight, and the sun being an enormous white-hot mass of molten metal bigger than all of Greece put together, with pieces that occasionally get flung off which land as meteorites

I'm gonna guess it's that last one which keeps him from getting lauded the way that guy who sort of guessed that maybe atoms are a thing does.

# ? Feb 2, 2020 06:33

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

Nessus posted:

I'm gonna guess it's that last one which keeps him from getting lauded the way that guy who sort of guessed that maybe atoms are a thing does.

He ended up settling in Lampsacus after getting driven out of Athens, and apparently everyone there loved him.

He did cheat a bit, it turns out it's pretty easy to get every up-and-coming student to praise your name if your dying wish is to make the anniversary of your death a permanent school holiday.

# ? Feb 2, 2020 06:56

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Silver2195 posted:

The Greeks and Romans themselves didn�t really draw a sharp distinction between their own religion and other people�s. They tended to see other people�s gods as their own gods under different names: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca

Sometimes they were actually right about this, in a sense! The cults of similar gods sometimes did have a common origin. In other cases the parallels were a stretch. And where they didn�t find parallels, they were often willing to add the cults of new gods. The extent to which this syncretism should be considered a form of �tolerance� is sometimes overstated, but that�s a complicated subject in itself.

There wasn�t enough of a distinction made at the time between �Greek religion,� �Roman religion,� �Egyptian religion,� etc. for terminology to strictly delineate them to emerge, for the most part. The distinction that seemed more important at the time was between Jewish (and later Christian) monotheism and everyone else�s polytheism.

Jupiter and Zues even share the same root. Lots of similarities.

# ? Feb 2, 2020 11:17

FAUXTON: Jun 2, 2005; spero che tu stia bene

euphronius posted:

Jupiter and Zues even share the same root. Lots of similarities.

sky dad

# ? Feb 2, 2020 12:09

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

euphronius posted:

Jupiter and Zues even share the same root. Lots of similarities.

That whole indo-european thing is part of it. Indo-Europeans spread the same deity framework across most of Europe in prehistory, then historical era, all the writers and thinkers go "hey all our gods are the same, but under different names" -- well, yes, they actually are all variations on the same set of indo-european deities, yes

# ? Feb 2, 2020 12:57

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

The introduction / exposure to the Semitic gods must have been intoxicating.

# ? Feb 2, 2020 13:32

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Silver2195 posted:

This is an important qualification, yeah. Although I would add a qualification to the qualification: There were people who converted to a personal faith in Mithras, Isis, or even Dionysus. It just wasn't mutually exclusive with participation in the mainstream civic religion.

Thinking of it as a �personal faith� is a bit misleading because belief was often irrelevant. There were people who decided to participate in the cult rituals of Mithras, Isis, or Dionysus. This wasn�t mutually exclusive with participation in mainstream religion because of course it wasn�t, they didn�t make competing claims on belief or anything, they just had special, different rituals that some people elected to take part in.

# ? Feb 2, 2020 13:52

Global Disorder: Jan 9, 2020

Nobody gave a poo poo what you believed in, as long as you behaved in socially acceptable ways, which included participating in mainstream religious rites. It doesn't really matter what you think about the emperor's divinity, just make an offering like all decent Romans do, alright?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthopraxy

# ? Feb 3, 2020 04:19

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

Basically. The way you got in trouble was if you refused to do the rites considered necessary to the survival of the state. And it wasn't really religious persecution per se, it was broad Roman policy that they really did not give much of a gently caress about what you did so long as you did not threaten the state by doing so. There are exceptions of course (mostly occasional moral panics, like about Bacchanals), but for the most part this is true. The flip side of this is if you did threaten the state, you would be mercilessly destroyed.

They didn't go after Christians because they gave a poo poo about people having a new belief, they went after them because they refused to participate in the necessary aspects of Roman religious practice.

# ? Feb 3, 2020 04:29

UnkleBoB: Jul 24, 2000; Beginner's Version, Copyright,
1991 - Please Copy and Distribute

I know it's a bit outside this thread's purpose, but it was recently brought up, so does anyone have any good books on the Sengoku period in Japan?

# ? Feb 3, 2020 09:35

Friar John: Aug 3, 2007; Saint Francis be my speed! how oft to-night
Have my old feet stumbled at graves!

UnkleBoB posted:

I know it's a bit outside this thread's purpose, but it was recently brought up, so does anyone have any good books on the Sengoku period in Japan?

It's the end of the period, but Samuel Hawley's "The Imjin War" is about the Japanese invasion of Korea starting in 1592, and is very interesting.

# ? Feb 3, 2020 12:19

Goldreallas XXX: Oct 22, 2009

Silver2195 posted:

The Greeks and Romans themselves didn�t really draw a sharp distinction between their own religion and other people�s. They tended to see other people�s gods as their own gods under different names: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca

Sometimes they were actually right about this, in a sense! The cults of similar gods sometimes did have a common origin. In other cases the parallels were a stretch. And where they didn�t find parallels, they were often willing to add the cults of new gods. The extent to which this syncretism should be considered a form of �tolerance� is sometimes overstated, but that�s a complicated subject in itself.

There wasn�t enough of a distinction made at the time between �Greek religion,� �Roman religion,� �Egyptian religion,� etc. for terminology to strictly delineate them to emerge, for the most part. The distinction that seemed more important at the time was between Jewish (and later Christian) monotheism and everyone else�s polytheism.

Is this why a lot of the Greek gods have different epithets, like Apollo Phythios and Apollo Helios? Are these different aspects or avatars under a particular "umbrella" deity, or are they understood as just being a different name for the same dude? I've always wondered about that.

# ? Feb 3, 2020 20:44

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

Goldreallas XXX posted:

Is this why a lot of the Greek gods have different epithets, like Apollo Phythios and Apollo Helios? Are these different aspects or avatars under a particular "umbrella" deity, or are they understood as just being a different name for the same dude? I've always wondered about that.

Different specific aspects of the same deity.

# ? Feb 3, 2020 20:55

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

How many records do we have of Greek military engineering? I just hit an instance where Xenophon (Hellenika 5.2.3) describes the Spartans building a circumvallation and damming a river, causing it to flood, waterlogging and threatening to destroy the walls of Mantineia. This would be utterly unremarkable in a Roman history but I'm 2/3 or so of the way through this and it's the first instance I've seen of any Greek army doing anything but ram its phalanx into the enemy army and hope for the best

# ? Feb 4, 2020 03:24

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

cheetah7071 posted:

How many records do we have of Greek military engineering? I just hit an instance where Xenophon (Hellenika 5.2.3) describes the Spartans building a circumvallation and damming a river, causing it to flood, waterlogging and threatening to destroy the walls of Mantineia. This would be utterly unremarkable in a Roman history but I'm 2/3 or so of the way through this and it's the first instance I've seen of any Greek army doing anything but ram its phalanx into the enemy army and hope for the best

Well, Alexander made a peninsula in order to better besiege Tyre, but I'm not sure if that qualifies as Greek exactly.

# ? Feb 4, 2020 03:29

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

You just made 10 million enemies for life

# ? Feb 4, 2020 04:09

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

PittTheElder posted:

You just made 10 million enemies for life

there�s a whole country called Macedonia I�m sure they�re the real heirs of Alexander the Great

# ? Feb 4, 2020 04:11

FreudianSlippers: Apr 12, 2010; Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!

It's all Greek to me

# ? Feb 4, 2020 04:11

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

evilweasel posted:

there�s a whole country called Macedonia I�m sure they�re the real heirs of Alexander the Great

Actually, it's North Macedonia now. :colbert:

# ? Feb 4, 2020 04:11

Mr Luxury Yacht: Apr 16, 2012

Once they get into the EU they should change their name to "Better Greece" just to match the pettiness.

# ? Feb 4, 2020 04:59

SlothfulCobra: Mar 27, 2011

cheetah7071 posted:

How many records do we have of Greek military engineering? I just hit an instance where Xenophon (Hellenika 5.2.3) describes the Spartans building a circumvallation and damming a river, causing it to flood, waterlogging and threatening to destroy the walls of Mantineia. This would be utterly unremarkable in a Roman history but I'm 2/3 or so of the way through this and it's the first instance I've seen of any Greek army doing anything but ram its phalanx into the enemy army and hope for the best

There was a bit in Thucydides about an army building siege walls while the other army built counter siege walls, which is a whole crazy thing. I think that happened once in the Gallic wars in Rome too, so it's not just a weird fluke of its own.

# ? Feb 4, 2020 06:16

Don Gato: Apr 28, 2013; Actually a bipedal cat.; Grimey Drawer

Silver2195 posted:

Actually, it's North Macedonia now.

If Greece wants to make a fuss they're welcome to do it the old fashioned way: military invasion followed by annexation.

# ? Feb 4, 2020 06:20

ThatBasqueGuy: Feb 14, 2013; someone introduce jojo to lazyb

Whomstever can lift the heaviest weight gets the right to be Macedonia for the year

# ? Feb 4, 2020 08:12

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

Notably, Xenophon's point with the story seemed to be less because he thought the details of the siege were super noteworthy, but because he had a snarky punchline in mind:

quote:

This is how matters turned out at Mantineia, and men became wiser from this incident in one way at least: that one should not have a river flow between one's walls.

# ? Feb 4, 2020 08:20

Corsec: Apr 17, 2007

So how stable were Roman patron/client relationships, and how much agency was permitted to the client to leave the relationship? Was it seen as a lifelong commitment based on honour, or was it seen as more of a business arrangement? Was it seen as acceptable or dishonourable for clients to change patrons without the permission of the previous patron? Would patrons compete for the best clients, and try to steal clients away from other patrons? Was it seen as betrayal for a freedman to leave the patron that freed them from slavery? How much force could patrons use to retain clients? And what would clients do when they had personal grievances against their current patron, would they seek out new ones?

I understand patrons would necessarily change as a result of civil wars and political persecutions, I'm asking more about the norms when things weren't in a state of emergency.

# ? Feb 4, 2020 08:25

Jamwad Hilder: Apr 18, 2007; surfin usa

UnkleBoB posted:

I know it's a bit outside this thread's purpose, but it was recently brought up, so does anyone have any good books on the Sengoku period in Japan?

It's not really a history book, more like a historical novel, but I always like to recommend Taiko by Eiji Yoshikawa

# ? Feb 4, 2020 16:22

Global Disorder: Jan 9, 2020

Goldreallas XXX posted:

Is this why a lot of the Greek gods have different epithets, like Apollo Phythios and Apollo Helios? Are these different aspects or avatars under a particular "umbrella" deity, or are they understood as just being a different name for the same dude? I've always wondered about that.

There's a similar case in Christianity, at least Catholicism (probably Orthodoxy as well?): the Virgin Mary. Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of F�tima, Our Lady of Sorrows and Stella Maris are different aspects of a single being.

# ? Feb 4, 2020 18:35

sullat: Jan 9, 2012

SlothfulCobra posted:

There was a bit in Thucydides about an army building siege walls while the other army built counter siege walls, which is a whole crazy thing. I think that happened once in the Gallic wars in Rome too, so it's not just a weird fluke of its own.

That was at Syracuse, IIRC.

# ? Feb 5, 2020 01:31

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Christianity is the last religion you want to look at if you are talking about monotheism.

# ? Feb 5, 2020 01:54

FreudianSlippers: Apr 12, 2010; Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!

Am I misremembering or was there some sort of predictive text thing that got run into the ground in this thread aeons ago about the fall of Rome where everything after the first sentence was always some vaguely authentic sounding nonsense?

Couldn't find it looking through the thread and search is useless

# ? Feb 5, 2020 14:25

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

FreudianSlippers posted:

Am I misremembering or was there some sort of predictive text thing that got run into the ground in this thread aeons ago about the fall of Rome where everything after the first sentence was always some vaguely authentic sounding nonsense?

Couldn't find it looking through the thread and search is useless

talktotransformer problably

# ? Feb 5, 2020 14:32

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Did I kick this whole thing off by joking that the Spartans weren't good at anything? I'm sorry. I'm also one of those weird people who thinks the gobsmackingly obvious satire in Snyder's films is in fact satire.

Historical parallels are bullshit, but it's not for nothing that pop-culture Spartan worship seems to coincide with special forces worship. Very silly to have that as a model for how your entire military should operate. My understanding is that the Spartans were in fact excellent infantry soldiers, but as a product of their extremely unequal mode of production, this came at the cost of not being able to establish colonies, field a decent navy, keep their army in the field very long, or really project power beyond the Peloponnese much at all.

Edit: VVV This isn't CineD, so let's not.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Feb 5, 2020

# ? Feb 5, 2020 16:00

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

What is satire in 300.

# ? Feb 5, 2020 16:01

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# ? May 10, 2024 02:37

Epicurius: Apr 10, 2010; College Slice

Halloween Jack posted:

. My understanding is that the Spartans were in fact excellent infantry soldiers, but as a product of their extremely unequal mode of production, this came at the cost of not being able to establish colonies, ...

As far as I know, Sparts had two successful colonies, Thera and Tarento, as well as a few in Crete, and also failed colonies in Libya and Sicily.

Also, was Melos a Spartan colony? I thought that was the reason they gave for wanting to stay neutral during the Peloponnesian war.

# ? Feb 5, 2020 16:31

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