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I know YOU'RE too mad and blinded with rage/bias to take any stock in this but for what it matters, I'm not mad.
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Feb 3, 2020 05:13
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Helsing posted:Why do you care? If you wanted the thread to be gone in four days anyway and the impeachment is basically wrapped up then why are you bristling at the rules being changed "at the very end" as though this was a race and I just unfairly changed the location of the finish line or something? Why do you keep using terms like "power grab" or talking about the "dignity" of your thread? Do you not see how that rhetoric is overloaded? We disagree about how to run this discussion on a virtual forum in 2020. If arguing about that really has you this worked up then you need to find ways to get less worked up over trivial internet bullshit. Man, two pages so far of people posting about how you're wrong, and that this thread has been good, but you'd rather talk about how you're really right and all of your mod buddies agreed with you in secret conversations but you're not mad, not mad at all. Got it. Dude, no one had any problem about talking about politics around impeachment, especially with strategies moving forward with 2020 and future elections and actions; you just decided that this was a chance to preen about 2016 and Succ Dems Are All Bad again and when people told you that was off topic, you decided you needed to poo poo on eke and the thread rather than actually back off and let the discussion continue. You really are a terrible mod.
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Feb 3, 2020 05:14
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e: gently caress it I said my piece earlier...I’ll twiddle my thumbs at the derail until my blood pressure skyrockets from the inevitable Trump post-trial tweet
Crazyweasel fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 05:14
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I find eke out's *tsk tsk* schtick a bit tiring but this dumbass and unnecessary derail is way worse
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Feb 3, 2020 05:17
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GutBomb posted:It used to be. There was even a warning about it when posting a thread. So was mod sass, brigading, cheerleading, posting about posting and backseat modding. At one point most of the regulars in this thread would have been banned by now for one or more of these. I think things have gotten better overall. I am a little shocked by the restraint to be honest(in a good way).
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Feb 3, 2020 05:18
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One thing I like less than bad posting is never ending discussions about bad posting.
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Feb 3, 2020 05:20
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skeleton warrior posted:If Lightning Knight showed up and insisted that we can't argue about Republican actions of the last three months in defense of President Trump without first deconstructing the argument over whether in a capitalist society democracy can actually survive, and only once we have reconciled the underlying question of whether capitalism and democracy can truly co-exist can we hence begin to unravel the actions of Republicans within it, we'd all call bullshit, and this is just the same. The important distinction here that you're ignoring is that Helsing is not actually telling anyone to stop talking about things - the only ones doing that are you guys (where "you guys" is the people who flip out about this stuff). What makes it especially weird is that the posters you seem to not have a problem with significantly outnumber the ones you do have a problem with in this thread. The only way posts like Helsing's can cause "derails" is if a lot of people react strongly to them. The reactions to them are supposedly happening on the basis of them being derails, but those reactions are the only reasons they become derails in the first place (though this is using a kind of loose definition of "derail" here). Crazyweasel posted:Ahhh yes the moderator (and now I guess other mods backing you up) arguing to the users who actually read and contribute in this thread that in fact they are wrong about what the thread should be A loving WEEK BEFORE IT IS DEAD Isn't "threads are free" an argument in favor of other people being able to post in them. You seem to be using a very strange definition of "free" here.
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Feb 3, 2020 05:24
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Helsing posted:Why do you care? If you wanted the thread to be gone in four days anyway and the impeachment is basically wrapped up then why are you bristling at the rules being changed "at the very end" as though this was a race and I just unfairly changed the location of the finish line or something? Why do you keep using terms like "power grab" or talking about the "dignity" of your thread? Do you not see how that rhetoric is overloaded? We disagree about how to run this discussion on a virtual forum in 2020. If arguing about that really has you this worked up then you need to find ways to get less worked up over trivial internet bullshit. Give up no one here wants the poo poo you want to make this thread into
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Feb 3, 2020 05:26
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Man it's a good thing someone reopened the thread to make this discussion possible.
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Feb 3, 2020 05:32
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Helsing posted:Why do you care? If you wanted the thread to be gone in four days anyway and the impeachment is basically wrapped up then why are you bristling at the rules being changed "at the very end" as though this was a race and I just unfairly changed the location of the finish line or something? Why do you keep using terms like "power grab" or talking about the "dignity" of your thread? Do you not see how that rhetoric is overloaded? We disagree about how to run this discussion on a virtual forum in 2020. If arguing about that really has you this worked up then you need to find ways to get less worked up over trivial internet bullshit. Please go away if this is what you're going to do in here. Like we're at page 300 something of a thread that people are overwhelmingly happy with. If you showed up with these concerns 300 pages ago they probably would have gone over better. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 05:36
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Ytlaya posted:The important distinction here that you're ignoring is that Helsing is not actually telling anyone to stop talking about things - the only ones doing that are you guys (where "you guys" is the people who flip out about this stuff). Did you just come in as back-up?
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Feb 3, 2020 05:40
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Impeachment falls apart and suddenly these types are gushing into the thread to kick us while we're down.
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Feb 3, 2020 05:42
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When the next D president inevitably gets impeached, Republicans will argue that actually, 51 votes in the Senate is enough to remove. Possibly 50 with Roberts breaking the tie. Change my mind.
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Feb 3, 2020 05:50
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UZR IS BULLSHIT posted:When the next D president inevitably gets impeached, Republicans will argue that actually, 51 votes in the Senate is enough to remove. Possibly 50 with Roberts breaking the tie. They can argue, but its pretty blatant language in the constitution that says get hosed 2/3s required bitches
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Feb 3, 2020 06:00
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UCS Hellmaker posted:They can argue, but its pretty blatant language in the constitution that says get hosed 2/3s required bitches The Constitution also forbids bribery and has the emoluments clause, and we jumped right past those.
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Feb 3, 2020 06:10
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Helsing posted:Why do you care? If you wanted the thread to be gone in four days anyway and the impeachment is basically wrapped up then why are you bristling at the rules being changed "at the very end" as though this was a race and I just unfairly changed the location of the finish line or something? Why do you keep using terms like "power grab" or talking about the "dignity" of your thread? Do you not see how that rhetoric is overloaded? We disagree about how to run this discussion on a virtual forum in 2020. If arguing about that really has you this worked up then you need to find ways to get less worked up over trivial internet bullshit. OK, you're just embarrassing yourself now. You should just apologize and bow out of this thread.
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Feb 3, 2020 06:19
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UCS Hellmaker posted:They can argue, but its pretty blatant language in the constitution that says get hosed 2/3s required bitches The rules are out the fuckin window and down the street now. Whoever can enforce their "interpretation" of our laws can do whatever they want.
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Feb 3, 2020 06:25
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eke out posted:Yeah, I don't think anyone's arguing otherwise at this point. It should probably stay up for at least 24 hours after the final vote Wednesday because there will inevitably be new admissions of crimes immediately after it's done For example, for those who listened to the Q&A or have had a chance to read the transcripts, did anyone ask the defense what they thought constituted impeachable offenses?
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Feb 3, 2020 06:41
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Why are all arguments focused on judt Ukraine. Wasnt the Mueller report just as damning as all of this new stuff? Shouldnt Barr and Trump both have been impeached for that? Why has everyone just forgotten about the Mueller report and his other crimes?
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Feb 3, 2020 06:47
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https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1224071403437248514Senator Joni Ernst posted:I think this door of impeachable whatever has been opened. Joe Biden should be very careful what he’s asking for because, you know, we can have a situation where if it should ever be President Biden, that immediately, people, right the day after he would be elected would be saying, "Well, we’re going to impeach him."
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Feb 3, 2020 06:49
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Helsing posted:Why do you care? If you wanted the thread to be gone in four days anyway and the impeachment is basically wrapped up then why are you bristling at the rules being changed "at the very end" as though this was a race and I just unfairly changed the location of the finish line or something? Why do you keep using terms like "power grab" or talking about the "dignity" of your thread? Do you not see how that rhetoric is overloaded? We disagree about how to run this discussion on a virtual forum in 2020. If arguing about that really has you this worked up then you need to find ways to get less worked up over trivial internet bullshit. Ugh, okay, no, this got bad and stayed bad. You should stop. There's so many threads to Helsing to death already. you don't accomplish anything with this except making people really really tired of your exercise of power.
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Feb 3, 2020 06:50
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Can't impeach poo poo if you can't get it out of the House, Joni.
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Feb 3, 2020 07:00
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to derail a thread as a mod and continue to argue with the OP that no one has had really any complaint about is a pretty bad look when it could have been taken to PMs to discuss like i personally didn't think closing the thread for the weekend was necessary either but it was whatever SubG posted:https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1224071403437248514 Delusional projection and petty revenge, thy name is Republican. This is so disgusting and childish. Well, democrats have no incentive to allow any witnesses or documents and have every opportunity to remind them of their behavior from right loving now.
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Feb 3, 2020 07:02
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Its also good to remember Ernst is like Cotton, a stooge that doesn't know poo poo about anything that a lobbyist doesnt pay her to say
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Feb 3, 2020 07:16
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Wrong thread.
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Feb 3, 2020 07:18
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nthing that eke out has done a fantastic job curating this thread and keeping it on topic i was a little irritated that it got closed for the weekend because i like reading discussion but helsing coming in and doing...... whatever this is............ was not a good thing threads for focused discussions are good, especially when there are already decent avenues for broader discussions (uspol, dem primary)
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Feb 3, 2020 07:24
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I would keep the thread open probably until Saturday incase anything comes out in the Friday trash. I can almost guarantee that either the Senate or the White House is going to have something damning come out on Friday.
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Feb 3, 2020 07:34
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SubG posted:https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1224071403437248514 Lol. I mean we all knew this but if they try run on this kinda dumb talking point for November especially since trump will double down this talking point no matter who it is and they will also probably try to run on killing Obamacare because they can read a room even worse than dnc leads. They are setting themselves up for a curbing of themselves.
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Feb 3, 2020 07:58
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Impeaching a president for something they did before they were president and everyone knew they did but elected them anyways is the dumbest idea. Even Republicans know that and it's an empty threat.
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Feb 3, 2020 08:01
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eke out posted:Yeah, I don't think anyone's arguing otherwise at this point. It should probably stay up for at least 24 hours after the final vote Wednesday because there will inevitably be new admissions of crimes immediately after it's done GreyjoyBastard posted:lodging my opinion: 72-96, then evaluate how the discourse is going and whether to fold it back into USPOL (or a new thread) PIZZA.BAT posted:Helsing you can just admit that you did something unpopular and move on instead of doing whatever it is you’re doing now  enraged_camel posted:OK, you're just embarrassing yourself now. You should just apologize and bow out of this thread.
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Feb 3, 2020 08:09
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Fart Amplifier posted:A significant amount of people were able to stay alive because of it I am still accepting of it as good. I just think that considering we had a majority and a supermajority the fact that we got a republican healthcare plan is a freaking slap in the face. I'm 37. This was the moment that mask was off for me and I realized that both parties have been corrupted by money and that they no longer work for us. Most of those people that were saved would have also been saved had there been a public option but the difference is poor people like myself at the time wouldn't have had to cut entertainment out of our lives. I still think all things considered Obama did some pretty good things but he ran as a true progressive and we got a center right moderate. This didn't make me check out of politics like a lot of people. It has caused me to fight even harder to get M4A so that everyone can have the comfort of not worrying if a sickness is going to kill them or if they can afford a kid to get their asthma medicine and pay their bills. For Content: I am really looking forward to all the information coming out about this scandal in the coming weeks, months, and years. FOIA take a long time, but I can imagine that there will be people like Ryan Grim that will keep bringing it up and keeping it in the media. I don't think it will do anything to change the minds of republicans or most independents but there will be a decent amount of young people that are in highschool right now that have a vague understanding of what is going on that as they get more invested in politics in college the blatant corruption of the GOP will push them further leftward. It might also help change the next generation of young republicans to not be so drat mendacious but I'm not holding my breath. I don't think they will impeach Trump again after the acquittal. He is impeached forever and that will be in the history books. I have a feeling that all of the misinformation now and the fact that conservatives control the narrative his blurb in the highschool history books will be "he presided over a great economy, he built a wall, maga." They won't even bring up how divisive he was.
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Feb 3, 2020 10:03
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PepsiOverCoke posted:Why are all arguments focused on judt Ukraine. Wasnt the Mueller report just as damning as all of this new stuff? Shouldnt Barr and Trump both have been impeached for that? The simple answer is that it was extremely straightforward in how it was outside the authority of the office, was clearly illegally performed for personal gain, could be personally traced to Trump himself rather than underlings, and that all of these were easy to explain in simple soundbites to people who don't really follow politics. It's absolutely not the worst of Trump's impeachable offenses, but it was hard to defend even for people who could buy the election meddling wasn't Trump's own doing and who think concentration camps are cool since they're not Americans.
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Feb 3, 2020 10:41
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Killer robot posted:The simple answer is that it was extremely straightforward in how it was outside the authority of the office, was clearly illegally performed for personal gain, could be personally traced to Trump himself rather than underlings, and that all of these were easy to explain in simple soundbites to people who don't really follow politics. It's absolutely not the worst of Trump's impeachable offenses, but it was hard to defend even for people who could buy the election meddling wasn't Trump's own doing and who think concentration camps are cool since they're not Americans. Yeah the Mueller report was damning, but it required an understanding of the laws and context and had ambiguities (many caused by obstruction) that gave enough wiggle room to escape after the right wing media machine muddied the waters. Same with things like emoluments and all the many other impeachable offenses. It's potentially complex and if any part wasn't perfect the RWM would be able to fixate on that weak point and say it represented the weakness of the entire case, and mainstream media would fall on their rear end to discuss it and both-sides the issue. Ukraine was clear, it was simple, it was unambiguous , and it's made republicans show their entire rear end about the whole process
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Feb 3, 2020 11:03
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KillHour posted:Impeaching a president for something they did before they were president and everyone knew they did but elected them anyways is the dumbest idea. Even Republicans know that and it's an empty threat.
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Feb 3, 2020 11:25
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eke out posted:criticize democrats' impeachment strategy, statements, etc. all you want here, it's all fair game. Hello, here is my extremely on topic criticism of the democrats' impeachment strategy: Just lol that those dumb fuckers thought pinning their hopes and dreams of  saving the nation on Trump trying to expose Biden's corrupt failson was a winning plan, or that anyone outside of other rich failsons would take notice. Americans do not give a poo poo about foreign skulduggery, a fact exploited by America to keep bombing hospitals and nobel peace prize winners with zero domestic consequences. The Dems might have been able to make a moral stand that would have provided fodder to run against Republicans or draw in new voters had they pursued any of Trump's other crimes like his embezzlements or keeping kids in cages, but they really thought covering for some dumb rear end in a top hat trading on his dad's name would be the issue that took down an American president.Impeachment was a farce to begin with because checks and balances are meaningless when the side that owns the checking mechanism decides solidarity is more important than crimes, but the Dems weren't even smart enough to try and score political points by hitting on a relevant topic. Democratic leadership is thoroughly disconnected from the national pulse and does not care about anything other than protecting their own interests. They are not a functional opposition party and should be scoured from this earth, because at this point the Democratic Party is aiding and abetting the rise of fascism. Also Pelosi intentionally stalled the proceedings to take senators straying from the party doctrine off the campaign trail, which is its own kettle of what the gently caress. Incidentally, did you know Pelosi blocked an attempt to impeach Bush over lying about Iraq because it would be too divisive? Yeah. Lying about a war that decimated a nation and cost a million civilian lives: too divisive; trying to expose a democrat's son as a corrupt grifter: we gotta stop this man! The democratic impeachment strategy is emblematic of how much of a failure the democrats are as a whole. Democratic leadership is out of touch with the electorate and cares only about protecting themselves and their donors. They are also unable to act in unison or form any kind of coherent resistance. During the impeachment process the democrats happily handed Trump several legislative wins that they absolutely did not have to. Without radical change the democrats will absolutely continue in their current path, as even the existential threat of Trump has not shaken them from their stupor, as demonstrated by this dumb trial. The democrats are a waste, and anyone who thought impeachment was going to matter or be successfully prosecuted by that set of idiots needs to seriously examine their entire political belief structure because they are the most gullible idiots imaginable.
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Feb 3, 2020 11:37
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DarkHorse posted:Ukraine was clear, it was simple, it was unambiguous , and it's made republicans show their entire rear end about the whole process No it isnt. Ukraine is a dumb political slap fight over Joe Biden's kid grifting money based on his dad's connections. Thats the story a significant portion of Americans have gotten from all of this. It *would* have been a great story had it not involved Joe Biden's corrupt kid, but it did, so now its just two corrupt parties going after each other. The only people who think the republicans showed their entire rear end are the #resistance sadsacks who were already anti-Trump.
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Feb 3, 2020 11:43
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From the perspective of a person outside the US, you have played up the impeachment very hard but it's a wet fart. The charges you threw at Trump were poo poo very few people outside the echo chamber care about (compared to his completely obvious corruption), and that this was gonna end like it did (rats will stick together) has been extremely obvious from the get go. The disease has to go. The 'they go low, we go high' talk is only inspiring to people willingly oblivious to the shortcomings of the Democratic party. It does nothing for the working men, for the poor people, and very little for minorities - who actually make a majority of the voting population. With Obama, you were lucky enough to have someone charismatic enough to pull it off, in an era where corporate influence was not so obvious. It is not gonna fly now. Embrace ideas that do something other than (fail to) preserve the status quo, or watch Republicans continue to tighten your noose.Most European legislation against the stranglehold of capital came about thanks to the unions fighting tooth and nail, not being scared to use dirty tactics. In France, they took to the streets and threw molotov cocktails to protest Macron. Guess what, they won concessions from the government. You don't even have to do something like that, yet, only realise that Democrats need a drastic change to both their party's politics, and their strategy. The failure of this impeachment is emblematic of how impotent they became. Again, a perspective of an outsider both from the country, and (as a leftist) from its' politics, so take it however you will. But an outside perspective is something, I believe, you always need for your ideas to improve. dex_sda fucked around with this message at 12:01 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 11:58
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dex_sda posted:From the perspective of a person outside the US, you have played up the impeachment very hard but it's a wet fart. The charges you threw at Trump were poo poo very few people outside the echo chamber care about (compared to his completely obvious corruption), and that this was gonna end like it did (rats will stick together) has been extremely obvious from the get go. unfortunately in the states you have a very real possibility of losing your jobs and your healthcare if you protest in this manner. We really have let the corporations dictate how this country operates and now we are in a really bad place. You are right about the impeachment. I think most americans that don't have their head up their rear end would have been far happier if they had impeached earlier for the concentration camps or for the blatant corruption. Maybe they should have actually got his taxes or kept him from hiring his son in law and daughter to higher positions in the whitehouse. This has been a pretty demoralizing couple decades when it comes to politics. Im just glad we got marriage equality right.
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Feb 3, 2020 12:27
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ManBoyChef posted:unfortunately in the states you have a very real possibility of losing your jobs and your healthcare if you protest in this manner. We really have let the corporations dictate how this country operates and now we are in a really bad place. I know, I kinda wanted to post this too - by dirty tactics I mean you need to be able to do strikes, you need to be able to do barricades, and you need to have the threat of civil disobedience being realistic. Your system is unfortunately stacked so the corporations are the only ones who have a threat, namely taking away your medicine. You really need to unfuck your healthcare, and quick. I don't mean to call you cowardly or anything, you are in worse position than we are here, because the problems we can get doing civil disobedience is a buncha bruises from an overzealous cop. ManBoyChef posted:You are right about the impeachment. I think most americans that don't have their head up their rear end would have been far happier if they had impeached earlier for the concentration camps or for the blatant corruption. Maybe they should have actually got his taxes or kept him from hiring his son in law and daughter to higher positions in the whitehouse. This has been a pretty demoralizing couple decades when it comes to politics. Im just glad we got marriage equality right. Yeah, I'm glad too, I'll just point out that it was the courts that did that instead of just a change in the senate/house; and you have allowed your court to be infiltrated by a republican bro primarily because of the whole 'bipartisanship' thing. All it takes for evil men to win is for good men to do nothing, or something like that.
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Feb 3, 2020 12:34
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KillHour posted:Impeaching a president for something they did before they were president and everyone knew they did but elected them anyways is the dumbest idea. Even Republicans know that and it's an empty threat. It would be their new Benghazi/emails investigation gravy train. It doesn't have to make sense or even really be legal. Its just there to throw red meat to the base and rile them up over BS.
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Feb 3, 2020 12:41
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