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AntherUslessPoster posted:ST never made sense in UI designs, though I've heard rumors that some bridge arrangements were introduced into real navy ships (not the stupid touch steering, thats just idiotic) so uh, about that. it did make it in and it did kill people. I would highly recommend that article to anyone interested in computers, failure engineering, UI design, or general how hard can it be to design a good ui for ships???
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Feb 3, 2020 00:24
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adaz posted:so uh, about that. it did make it in and it did kill people. I would highly recommend that article to anyone interested in computers, failure engineering, UI design, or general how hard can it be to design a good ui for ships??? Oh my god, noooooooooooo.
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Feb 3, 2020 00:28
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'Idiocracy' is way closer than I expected  Well, I hope those lives were not just wasted and at least some lessons were learned.
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Feb 3, 2020 00:41
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https://twitter.com/xor/status/1223836308939902977
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Feb 3, 2020 01:42
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Lizard Combatant posted:The displays were never really meant to be seen up close except for featured shots, it's just set dressing. I'm well aware that LCARS is not actually a usable GUI despite many attempts by fans to make it work over the years, I said it was better at looking like it made sense than the jumble from Picard Show so far. It reminds me of random background textures used by the Star Trek Online in it's first year, which while I suppose is period appropriate for the show just looks lame.
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Feb 3, 2020 01:47
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Tighclops posted:I'm well aware that LCARS is not actually a usable GUI despite many attempts by fans to make it work over the years, I said it was better at looking like it made sense than the jumble from Picard Show so far. It reminds me of random background textures used by the Star Trek Online in it's first year, which while I suppose is period appropriate for the show just looks lame. Years ago I downloaded an lcars for Android launcher and promptly uninstalled it. It looks cool, but it do not work. I prefer the yellows and blues of TNG computers as well, it looked inscrutable which equalled futuristic to me. But the new one is fine, they've just taken the pills and swoops and made it busier and monochrome. e: I'm looking at the scene with Admiral loving Hubris for reference. Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 02:08
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Cojawfee posted:There's a difference between form fitting and being sized too small. What exactly looks uncomfortable about the disco uniforms? What exactly looks comfortable about them?  Anson Mount looks like he’s a deep breath away from tearing his to shreds. I’m not making some goony “they’re all too fat for those unis” argument, I’m just saying they don’t look like something comfortable enough to wear around the set, much less a realistic quasi-military uniform.
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Feb 3, 2020 03:17
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Jason Isaacs I think has said multiple times the Disco uniforms were kinda uncomfortable to squeeze into.
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Feb 3, 2020 03:44
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They look very stiff. They look good from a body shape perspective but I think that's because they're very stiff and hold their shape.
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Feb 3, 2020 03:52
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On the other hand, they had to change the TNG uniforms because they were destroying Patrick Stewart's back, so at least they're sticking to Trek tradition!
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Feb 3, 2020 03:53
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nine-gear crow posted:Yeah, I recall the production team on Enterprise having a mild panic attack when the show entered the HD era and suddenly all the tiny text they wrote for set dressing was legible on screen for the first time ever, including an entire up-to-his-death bio for Jonathan Archer they wrote for In A Mirror Darkly which they had no intention of ever being seen and they had to go "Uh... Yeah that's all canon then I guess." There's no way they didn't intend that to be readable if it was. That episode was long after they had started filming in HD.
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Feb 3, 2020 04:37
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My main issue with the Disco uniforms is that they all look the same and it's not color coded by department like in all other series. I think the Disco Enterprise uniforms are a good modernization of the old TOS ones.
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Feb 3, 2020 06:17
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FlamingLiberal posted:My main issue with the Disco uniforms is that they all look the same and it's not color coded by department like in all other series. They are color coded on the sleeves and sides of the torso, but they’re all relatively similar and barely ever show up in shots. The Command gold and Engineering bronze look identical most of the time. Only the Science silver bits are noticeable.
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Feb 3, 2020 06:21
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FlamingLiberal posted:My main issue with the Disco uniforms is that they all look the same and it's not color coded by department like in all other series. While that is also annoying, it's always bothered me that they doubled up colours. Like, why are security and engineering indistinguishable? And if you need a doctor, it seems like it would be handy to be able to identify them at a glance rather than confusing them with astrophysicists or xenobiologists. Did they not know that there are more than three colours?
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Feb 3, 2020 07:33
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Please don't post my winamp skin.
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Feb 3, 2020 07:37
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Tiggum posted:While that is also annoying, it's always bothered me that they doubled up colours. Like, why are security and engineering indistinguishable? And if you need a doctor, it seems like it would be handy to be able to identify them at a glance rather than confusing them with astrophysicists or xenobiologists. Did they not know that there are more than three colours? The doctors wear all-white versions of the same uniforms.
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Feb 3, 2020 07:55
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From all I hear all the uniform bullshit is the most true to life part of Star Trek, and probably even worse when replicators can spit out new uniforms in a day's notice.
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Feb 3, 2020 08:04
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I'm only 25 minutes in to Picard episode 2 and he's just now leaving Starfleet, and I like that they're complicating the Federation narrative because it's an answer to the "Star Trek is supposed to be Utopian!" narrative. What if the Trek we've been enjoying is only as Utopian as the recollections of its primary characters? It would explain DS9's darker turn. Picard got to live the best of Starfleet and so he's aghast when realpolitik slaps him in the face, but of course there's dissent and complication in the Federation, just like how the City Upon a Hill just exonerated Trump.
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Feb 3, 2020 08:26
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Star trek in TNG was shown as utopian because Picard and because Enterprise is a flagship. There are many people that fall into 'Pegasus' and 'Equinox' categories, backed by some 'In pale moonlight'
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Feb 3, 2020 08:39
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The whole point of the Earth arc in DS9 is that utopia isn't something you can rest on, you need to actively work to maintain it and avoid taking the easy way out and giving up a little liberty to gain a little security (because you will deserve neither and lose both)
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Feb 3, 2020 09:01
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Big Mean Jerk posted:The doctors wear all-white versions of the same uniforms.
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Feb 3, 2020 09:16
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just another posted:I'm only 25 minutes in to Picard episode 2 and he's just now leaving Starfleet, and I like that they're complicating the Federation narrative because it's an answer to the "Star Trek is supposed to be Utopian!" narrative. What if the Trek we've been enjoying is only as Utopian as the recollections of its primary characters? It would explain DS9's darker turn. This isn't supported by the text, Federation ideals and actions are similarly described by other characters inside and out of the Federation and there's no indication that the lead characters are unreliable narrators. DS9 is darker in terms of content and tone, but doesn't depict a darker Federation than in TNG, rather it just takes those same ideals to their breaking point to see if the characters measure up. With the exception of shonky writing here and there it's pretty consistent. Ghost Leviathan posted:The whole point of the Earth arc in DS9 is that utopia isn't something you can rest on, you need to actively work to maintain it and avoid taking the easy way out and giving up a little liberty to gain a little security (because you will deserve neither and lose both) Yup AntherUslessPoster posted:Star trek in TNG was shown as utopian because Picard and because Enterprise is a flagship. Not sure what your argument is here? Pegasus and Equinox are unequivocally shown to be aberrant and wrong. In the Pale Moonlight is the one everyone gets a hard on for (and it's a great episode), but it's a completely internal struggle for Sisko. It's him literally trying to justify his actions to his conscience through his log. If you're going to have a character make such an extraordinary choice, it needs to really drive deep into their conflict like this episode does - it also helps to be coming off the back of nearly 6 seasons worth of character development. Equinox, Moonlight and other examples all show that people can still act out of desperation. And I think that's the important element. Desperation can lead good people to do morally repugnant but understandable things. The Federation's turn in Picard isn't born of desperation but apathetic pragmatism. That's the part people find hard to swallow. That they even needed convincing in the first place to help the Romulans, and then when there's a setback that they'd abandon it all together. Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 09:32 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 09:18
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I feel like there has to be a way to tell relevant star trek stories that don't involve implying that no actually things don't get better for humanity and the future is as lovely as the present
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Feb 3, 2020 09:23
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Tiggum posted:I meant in TNG. The medical uniforms in Discovery are actually a good change. Oh, right. I could never tell if the teal/green uniforms you’d occasionally see on TNG were deliberately different from the medical blue that Crusher and Ogawa wore or if it was just some variation in the costume production. ed: Nevermind, I’m dumb. Apparently the “green” uniforms were only a result of the hosed up coloring on the old broadcasts and DVDs. Big Mean Jerk fucked around with this message at 09:32 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 09:28
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TNG told enough stories with misguided or villainous admirals that it eventually became enough of a cliche that DS9 bringing in the - generally - aboveboard Admiral Ross felt like a subversion. After enough of those stories, you really do have to ask why this 'utopian' society seems to elevate so many people that don't share its values.
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Feb 3, 2020 09:31
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Even Ross worked with Section 31
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Feb 3, 2020 09:32
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Angry Salami posted:TNG told enough stories with misguided or villainous admirals that it eventually became enough of a cliche that DS9 bringing in the - generally - aboveboard Admiral Ross felt like a subversion. After enough of those stories, you really do have to ask why this 'utopian' society seems to elevate so many people that don't share its values. Because stories need conflict and writers get lazy. The enemy from within is a popular trope. If you want an in universe explanation for your "head canon" (urgh, I need a shower) it's a handful of characters from an organisation of millions, how many hundreds of captains and admirals are there? e: Ghost Leviathan posted:Ask any leftist movement; one of the biggest obstacles to building an organisation working for the betterment of everyone is that even the tiniest amount of power attracts the worst kind of people. Also this Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 09:36
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Honestly I feel like it's an overdue chance to, pardon the phrase, humanise the Romulans, and all the more poignant for how they're the least sympathetic faction both in and out of universe since they had to be tricked into the Dominion War and haven't been explored in detail like the Klingons, Ferengi and Cardassians. Wouldn't be surprised if we deal with a divided Tal Shiar basically dealing with Romulan xenophobia and distrust versus the fact that they absolutely need outside help to survive, and that acting in good faith towards an influential Starfleet figure who actively wants to help them is actually a good idea. Also, having a couple of Tal Shiar agents as high ranking Starfleet officers seems a nice counterpoint to how DS9 has the literal head of the Tal Shiar be a Section 31 catspaw. Seems a theme so far that we're seeing a variety of Romulans, similar to how DS9 shows us cultural, philosophical, class and personal differences between Klingon, Ferengi and Bajoran individuals. Which is often one of the best parts of Star Trek! The reclamation site is an interesting case of a Romulan facility that invites and seems to probably require non-Romulan staff and expertise, and mingling may be officially prohibited but is still inevitable. The Romulans are being forced to open up, and may find that isn't such a bad thing.
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Feb 3, 2020 09:42
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Angry Salami posted:TNG told enough stories with misguided or villainous admirals that it eventually became enough of a cliche that DS9 bringing in the - generally - aboveboard Admiral Ross felt like a subversion. After enough of those stories, you really do have to ask why this 'utopian' society seems to elevate so many people that don't share its values. Ask any leftist movement; one of the biggest obstacles to building an organisation working for the betterment of everyone is that even the tiniest amount of power attracts the worst kind of people.
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Feb 3, 2020 09:43
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Lizard Combatant posted:
Despite all utopian efforts and such humans are still flawed. Desperate times call for desperate measures in Equinox, yes but then they meet voyager and can do good but they chose not to. Pegasus is the sheer loving hubris case, with a high ranking officer being the bad guy. Did he become one or he always was? We do not get the whole picture said straight away but it is implied that Pressman indeed was and still is the bad guy. In the pale moonlight is yet another example of how utopian standards fall in front of greater problems. Its one of the best episodes of DS9 and certainly on of my favourite, but do we judge standards by the highs or by the lows? Do we accept lowest points in desperate efforts as a measure or we can say 'it was a dire situation but in any other case he would do good (post scarcity, no need to work or any other effort)'? It's easy being good having a good situation around you, but will you hold your standards at your lowest? This is the drastic difference between high-standards-or-bust Picard and his exemplary crew versus all other people and this was my point. Picard is the embodiment of the utopian UFP and its standards, but he is The Captain of the starship Enterprise and the rest are not so exemplary, admirals or not, dire situation or not.
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Feb 3, 2020 09:58
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Ghost Leviathan posted:From all I hear all the uniform bullshit is the most true to life part of Star Trek, and probably even worse when replicators can spit out new uniforms in a day's notice. This was the thing that pissed me off about Voyager after they got back in contact with Starfleet. They should have upgraded to the DS9/First Contact uniforms now that Starfleet could send the specs to them for the replicators to make. Because those Voyager uniforms looked hella cheap compared to the DS9 ones. Maybe they just didn't want to spend the money on it? Voyager was a right proper warehouse of boneheaded executive decisions after all E: gently caress, if Harry Kim was doomed to be an ensign for all time no way were they gonna splurge on a bunch of fancy new uniforms
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Feb 3, 2020 10:18
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There is generally a transitional period in real militaries when a new uniform is available but old uniforms remain in use; I've heard that it's traditional for a ship not to change into the new uniform until it returns to its home port.
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Feb 3, 2020 10:28
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Angry Salami posted:There is generally a transitional period in real militaries when a new uniform is available but old uniforms remain in use; I've heard that it's traditional for a ship not to change into the new uniform until it returns to its home port. That makes somewhat more sense, I suppose. It also makes Generations look even sillier with its use of both the old and new TNG uniforms and the early DS9 ones because they literally ran out of costumes for the actors.
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Feb 3, 2020 10:36
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AntherUslessPoster posted:Despite all utopian efforts and such humans are still flawed. Desperate times call for desperate measures in Equinox, yes but then they meet voyager and can do good but they chose not to. Ah right, gotcha. I don't know if Picard is meant to be the most exemplary embodiment is he? And it's not like the Enterprise has it easy, it seems to be thrown into mortal peril and moral quandries on a weekly basis in its role as exploration and first contact embassadors. Yes desperate situations test your ideals and may cause you to do things you're not proud of, but my point is that I don't buy that there's no difference between the Federation of the old shows and in Picard. Something has happened in the 20 years since we last saw them. What is this pressure that's caused their utopian ideals to fall, as you say? And it's not the Mars attacks, since they apparently needed convincing to help from the get go and an unrelated (unrelated as far as the Federation is concerned) setback wouldn't cause the Federation of TNG or DS9 to say "gently caress it. On your own, Weird Ears". Lizard Combatant posted:The Federation's turn in Picard isn't born of desperation but apathetic pragmatism. It's either something in universe which I'd hope they'd address, or it's the writers not noticing what they've written is out of step. Cause this will come up again I guarantee it, someone will complain that the Federation are acting uncharacteristicly callous and someone else will chime in that maybe the Federation was always bad because... Deep Space Nine was "dark" or there were occasionally villains from within Starfleet? Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 11:28 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 10:51
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nine-gear crow posted:This was the thing that pissed me off about Voyager after they got back in contact with Starfleet. They should have upgraded to the DS9/First Contact uniforms now that Starfleet could send the specs to them for the replicators to make. Because those Voyager uniforms looked hella cheap compared to the DS9 ones. Maybe they just didn't want to spend the money on it? Voyager was a right proper warehouse of boneheaded executive decisions after all Makes some sense considering Voyager is already rationing replicator use and are basically operating independently far outside the Federation's jurisdiction; would be incredibly petty to enforce uniform regulations on them while there's no one else in the quadrant who cares. Lizard Combatant posted:Cause this will come up again I guarantee it, someone will complain that the Federation are acting uncharacteristicly callous and someone else wise will chime in that maybe the Federation was always bad because... Deep Space Nine was "dark" or there were occasionally villains from within Starfleet? I think the key thing is that the Romulans are outside the Federation- at least in theory Starfleet has far fewer obligations towards them, especially since they're a frequently hostile power and only a reluctant ally in the last big war. They're not pitiable victims like the Bajorans or any number of aliens of the week, but a recurring foe who rarely if ever act in good faith and one of the major threats to the Federation's hegemony who suddenly find themselves suffering misfortune. A cynical view among the Federation is likely that if they really wanted help they'd apply to join the Federation rather than begging for help from their former enemies they can barely stand talking to. Of course, Picard's argument is that the Federation should actually live up to its ideals if it wants to be respected for them, rather than being just another galactic empire who prefers cultural domination over military or commercial.
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Feb 3, 2020 11:21
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I think the key thing is that the Romulans are outside the Federation- at least in theory Starfleet has far fewer obligations towards them, especially since they're a frequently hostile power and only a reluctant ally in the last big war. They're not pitiable victims like the Bajorans or any number of aliens of the week, but a recurring foe who rarely if ever act in good faith and one of the major threats to the Federation's hegemony who suddenly find themselves suffering misfortune. A cynical view among the Federation is likely that if they really wanted help they'd apply to join the Federation rather than begging for help from their former enemies they can barely stand talking to. Of course, Picard's argument is that the Federation should actually live up to its ideals if it wants to be respected for them, rather than being just another galactic empire who prefers cultural domination over military or commercial. Is it mentioned that the Romulans didn't ask for help? And joining the Federation as a prerequisite would be just as lovely a move. As a side note, I have a new phone and lost my swype keyboard data somehow. So my posts have been riddled with typos, usually they're obvious but in that post you quoted the line "someone wise will" comes across as real snarky when "wise" was never meant to be in there. So apologies.
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Feb 3, 2020 11:32
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I'm sick of this modern Trek making humans of the future look cynical.
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Feb 3, 2020 11:32
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did you watch the movie
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Feb 3, 2020 11:35
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You mean that's not the final scene?! I thought that was a weird send off for kirk...
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Feb 3, 2020 11:36
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Senor Tron posted:I'm sick of this modern Trek making humans of the future look cynical. I think a better way to put this idea is that a lot of Star Trek suggests that it is possible for people to be better, even if they are not perfect. A lot of people's go-to thought for Star Trek fan projects or whatever is "What if: the Federation is just Bush's America?" and the general pattern of "What if: Good thing, actually bad?" is tremendously stale.
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