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DarkHorse posted:Yeah the Mueller report was damning, but it required an understanding of the laws and context and had ambiguities (many caused by obstruction) that gave enough wiggle room to escape after the right wing media machine muddied the waters. Same with things like emoluments and all the many other impeachable offenses. It's potentially complex and if any part wasn't perfect the RWM would be able to fixate on that weak point and say it represented the weakness of the entire case, and mainstream media would fall on their rear end to discuss it and both-sides the issue. Ukraine is a weird, foreign thing that few people got. "The president is not allowed to take money from foreigners period," is much easier to understand. "The president made the police stop investigating his crimes," is much easier to understand. Both of those not only have smoking guns, one is an ongoing crime that's trivial to demonstrate and the other has the investigation complete. These are slam dunks compared to foreign policy. The thing that's different about Ukraine that made democrats finally move is that Trump went after Biden. I'd put money on this never going to impeachment if he went after Bernie Sanders.
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Feb 3, 2020 13:36
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Random Stranger posted:Ukraine is a weird, foreign thing that few people got. "The president is not allowed to take money from foreigners period," is much easier to understand. "The president made the police stop investigating his crimes," is much easier to understand. Both of those not only have smoking guns, one is an ongoing crime that's trivial to demonstrate and the other has the investigation complete. These are slam dunks compared to foreign policy. If it was Bernie the democrats would be joining in.
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Feb 3, 2020 13:48
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dex_sda posted:I don't mean to call you cowardly or anything, you are in worse position than we are here, because the problems we can get doing civil disobedience is a buncha bruises from an overzealous cop.
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Feb 3, 2020 13:56
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Captain Invictus posted:if you've been paying attention to US stuff much, you would do well to remember that american cops have guns and are very happy to use them on anyone and anything, at any time. Yep. Our cops being bastards is a bruise from a police baton and teary eyes; your cops being bastards is people dying. USA is stacked to disallow disobedience. But you gotta do something. Really, I guess I'm just trying to pull you guys out of your stupor. America is unfortunately (for us in other countries) the most powerful country on earth, and it likes to stick it's nose in other people's business, so your choices that we have zero control over have tremendous impact on the world. With climate change and right-wing rise on the horizon, it is extremely important that you realise you need to act, decisively and fast. I know it's difficult, but you actually currently have someone who is willing to do something new in Sanders, a genuine center-left candidate who's ideas will allow you to fight. Don't waste the opportunity. dex_sda fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 14:02
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Captain Invictus posted:if you've been paying attention to US stuff much, you would do well to remember that american cops have guns and are very happy to use them on anyone and anything, at any time. ... except dex_sda posted:But you gotta do something. Really, I guess I'm just trying to pull you guys out of your stupor. America is unfortunately (for us in other countries) the most powerful country on earth, and it likes to stick it's nose in other people's business, so your choices that we have zero control over have tremendous impact on the world. The women's march was by some counts the largest protest ever in the US and doesn't seem to have moved the needle much at all. Massive labour action might but good luck with that. It's not clear what the long term impact of impeachment will be but it's unlikely to be negative. The criticism of Democrats being useless for letting Republicans muddy the water with (Hunter) Biden stuff is facile. It was inevitable both because Republicans try to whatabout every issue, and because the scandal really did start with investigating Biden. Not impeaching would have been awful cowardice, which isn't to say that impeachment alone is sufficient.
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Feb 3, 2020 14:27
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I find it oddly fitting that, much like impeachment, this thread will essentially end with a massive wet fart followed by embarrassed silence. Bravo.
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Feb 3, 2020 14:30
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eXXon posted:The women's march was by some counts the largest protest ever in the US and doesn't seem to have moved the needle much at all. Massive labour action might but good luck with that. eXXon posted:It's not clear what the long term impact of impeachment will be but it's unlikely to be negative. The criticism of Democrats being useless for letting Republicans muddy the water with (Hunter) Biden stuff is facile. It was inevitable both because Republicans try to whatabout every issue, and because the scandal really did start with investigating Biden. Not impeaching would have been awful cowardice, which isn't to say that impeachment alone is sufficient. It's an issue nobody really cares about. There have been a hundred situations that they could have impeached for, and then they go for the softball one? Why do it if you know it's not gonna succeed anyway. Play their loving game. Get your team to vote in the house impeachment about straight corruption. It's gonna get thrown out of the senate but you can parade poo poo that actually matters to voters.
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Feb 3, 2020 14:34
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you are preaching to the choir in this thread my friend, we're not the people you need to convince.
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Feb 3, 2020 14:35
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eXXon posted:... except I've heard directly from people I know and I've read from some that were involved with Occupy who watched average Americans get radicalized into local and national politics, political action, etc because they got / watched others get beat up by the cops or treated as a joke by MSN, or that it didn't seem to have any impact. So I think protests are "worthless" but can and should be capitalized on and to act like we shouldn't encourage them is bad because it's a missed opportunity to help the average American get their poo poo together politically.
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Feb 3, 2020 14:36
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SchrodingersCat posted:I find it oddly fitting that, much like impeachment, this thread will essentially end with a massive wet fart followed by embarrassed silence. Bravo. Everyone with half a brain expected him to be acquitted. The best case scenario would have been getting witnesses, but the endgame was always going to be shining a light on Trump’s crimes and chaining the GOP senators to him and that was successful at least. A bunch of polls showed Americans in support of impeachment and removal, and upwards of 70% supported hearing from witnesses like Bolton. You have to believe that the GOP stonewalling the trial will create some movement in the election come November.
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Feb 3, 2020 14:40
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Strange Poon posted:I've heard directly from people I know and I've read from some that were involved with Occupy who watched average Americans get radicalized into local and national politics, political action, etc because they got / watched others get beat up by the cops or treated as a joke by MSN, or that it didn't seem to have any impact. So I think protests are "worthless" but can and should be capitalized on and to act like we shouldn't encourage them is bad because it's a missed opportunity to help the average American get their poo poo together politically. For sure; the Women's March was a largely wasted opportunity to find genuine class solidarity. Captain Invictus posted:you are preaching to the choir in this thread my friend, we're not the people you need to convince. maybe some, though I think there are still some who aren't willing to internalize some of the lessons of the last 4 years.
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Feb 3, 2020 14:40
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Women's march actually owned and a ton of women were motivated to personally get into politics who are now in office because of it
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Feb 3, 2020 14:48
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Women's march actually owned and a ton of women were motivated to personally get into politics who are now in office because of it That's good to hear. Building class solidarity and political involvement is a good thing.
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Feb 3, 2020 14:53
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eXXon posted:... except Cops only kill fellow cops when they're exposing corruption.
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Feb 3, 2020 15:03
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I think if thr Senate had allowed witnesses all this writing off of the impeachment wouldnt be happening. We wouldnt be reading "pshaw its a wet fart and i knew it the whole time" it would be "oh man whats gonna happen next!?" Lets not let hind sight shape the way we view the processses.
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Feb 3, 2020 15:05
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PepsiOverCoke posted:I think if thr Senate had allowed witnesses all this writing off of the impeachment wouldnt be happening. We wouldnt be reading "pshaw its a wet fart and i knew it the whole time" it would be "oh man whats gonna happen next!?" Yeah, but the Senate was never, ever going to allow witnesses. The trial was theater, meant to influence the 2020 election. The Republicans were always going to start investigations to rig the 2020 election because that was their 2016 playbook. The Democrats used this to beat them to the punch and now it's all just white noise.
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Feb 3, 2020 15:45
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Slowpoke! posted:Everyone with half a brain expected him to be acquitted. The best case scenario would have been getting witnesses, but the endgame was always going to be shining a light on Trump’s crimes and chaining the GOP senators to him and that was successful at least. A bunch of polls showed Americans in support of impeachment and removal, and upwards of 70% supported hearing from witnesses like Bolton. You have to believe that the GOP stonewalling the trial will create some movement in the election come November. SchrodingersCat posted:Yeah, but the Senate was never, ever going to allow witnesses. The trial was theater, meant to influence the 2020 election. The Republicans were always going to start investigations to rig the 2020 election because that was their 2016 playbook. The Democrats used this to beat them to the punch and now it's all just white noise.
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Feb 3, 2020 16:30
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Women's march actually owned and a ton of women were motivated to personally get into politics who are now in office because of it The first one happened the day after the inauguration and led to a bunch of comfortable suburbanites tut-tutting about how peaceful they were and how nice the police were and how justifiable it must have been to teargas people the night before. What did they advocate what did they stand for? Like impeachment just a big symbolic gesture that lead to nothing except eventual infighting over whether white women were being unfairly made sad cause other people wanted to lead and whether Palestinians are people. HashtagGirlboss fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 16:46
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Yeah, the women's March may have been good in that it motivated people to get involved, but it was not direct action or even useful protest. It was controlled opposition.
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Feb 3, 2020 16:53
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dex_sda posted:For sure; the Women's March was a largely wasted opportunity to find genuine class solidarity. Like dude....you are kramering into threads about USA politics and waxing eloquently about what everyone should do when you lack nearly all perspective of what politics is like in this country as evidenced by this really dumb statement about the Women's March. It was widely effective and got a lot of momentum for female progressive candidates to be elected. Seriously, your posts are getting patronizing as all get out and I recommend you listen to what things are like from people organizing on the ground instead of posting things like this: quote:But you gotta do something. Really, I guess I'm just trying to pull you guys out of your stupor. America is unfortunately (for us in other countries) the most powerful country on earth, and it likes to stick it's nose in other people's business, so your choices that we have zero control over have tremendous impact on the world. Also...impeachment has not in any way shape or form been a wet fart. It has energized a lot of the electorate. The VAGOP tried to use impeachment as a GOTV and it failed miserably and the Democrats flipped Virginia. Saying you are trying to pull us out of our stupor is just...insulting and demeaning to the organizers that have worked their asses off to enact change in the past few years
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Feb 3, 2020 16:54
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xrunner posted:The first one happened the day after the inauguration and led to a bunch of comfortable suburbanites tut-tutting about how peaceful they were and how nice the police were and how justifiable it must have been to teargas people the night before. What did they advocate what did they stand for? Like impeachment just a big symbolic gesture that lead to nothing except eventual infighting over whether white women were being unfairly made sad cause other people wanted to lead and whether Palestinians are people. It's great that this is your entirely uninformed imagination of what they were, but alas this is not what they were. Also they were overwhelmingly not about white women since most woc knew from day one what trump represented. The single biggest message and legacy was that women need to get specifically and personally involved in the political process and a ton did. Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yeah, the women's March may have been good in that it motivated people to get involved, but it was not direct action or even useful protest. It was controlled opposition. see above, also they were basically a spontaneous thing so the idea that they didn't achieve some grand overarching goals that hadn't even been articulated yet by anyone is just bizarre
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Feb 3, 2020 17:03
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The Women’s March is what’s led to the increased turnout, the blue wave, the flipping of Virginia, and to suggest otherwise is to pretend the people you didn’t reach are the only parts that matter. Every activated person, every woman who ran for office and flipped the House, every person who got into voter registration and combating all the ugly poo poo that’s gone on, all of it builds on itself. The women’s march is why we’re putting on an impeachment trial at all. We’re here talking about incremental moves that build to 11/3/20, and it leads to a better world, one without Donald Trump in it. But hey, the hearing’s about to start again; let’s all watch!
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Feb 3, 2020 17:06
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Legit weirded out that a bunch of people are so invested in calling the women's marches worthless and pointless when they demonstrably led to a ton of women getting elected to office.
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Feb 3, 2020 17:06
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xrunner posted:The first one happened the day after the inauguration and led to a bunch of comfortable suburbanites tut-tutting about how peaceful they were and how nice the police were and how justifiable it must have been to teargas people the night before. this whole discussion is offtopic but this here is just gross eke out fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 17:09
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xrunner posted:The first one happened the day after the inauguration and led to a bunch of comfortable suburbanites tut-tutting about how peaceful they were and how nice the police were and how justifiable it must have been to teargas people the night before. What did they advocate what did they stand for? Like impeachment just a big symbolic gesture that lead to nothing except eventual infighting over whether white women were being unfairly made sad cause other people wanted to lead and whether Palestinians are people. This is revisionist history about the marches and is really loving gross.
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Feb 3, 2020 17:10
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dex_sda posted:For sure; the Women's March was a largely wasted opportunity to find genuine class solidarity. Class solidarity bullshit aside you obviously are just coming in with uninformed ideas that have no bearing to real life. The woman's marches pushed tons of people into politics and helped to launch brand new blue waves in local and state government a due to the networks that developed and the anger they helped to push into actions And gently caress internalizing bullshit. There's no lessons to learn besides punch a Nazi and the gop is spineless cowards that allowed the id of pure hatred to take over their party. With how lovely things are they always could have been worse if people sat back and did nothing. People have fought to keep us going and they will fight to keep going.
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Feb 3, 2020 17:12
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looks like final arguments have started https://twitter.com/KlasfeldReports/status/1224365333458444289 obviously we're in pure symbolic territory now, with the main remaining point being messaging and hammering home how fundamentally hosed this is
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Feb 3, 2020 17:14
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eke out posted:looks like final arguments have started Yeah, at this point it is political theater, but theater loving matters in messaging. Pop open a beer folks, next few months are gonna get wild!
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Feb 3, 2020 17:17
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yeah, the women's March may have been good in that it motivated people to get involved, but it was not direct action or even useful protest. It was controlled opposition. It absolutely was not, holy poo poo. You think the Trump administration was totally cool with tens of thousands of women marching on the Mall? How do you define "useful protest?" Oh, and I just gotta say, well done, guys. This thread is officially no longer about impeachment, it's about whether or not the Women's March in 2017 was effective and the 1,000,000,000th discussion of "just how much do the Democrats suck?".
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Feb 3, 2020 17:17
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friendbot2000 posted:This is revisionist history about the marches and is really loving gross. https://www.citylab.com/equity/2017/01/no-arrests-at-womens-march-in-dc-los-angeles-new-york-chicago-austin-seattle/514067/ quote:For the organizers and attendees of the national Women’s March, this is an impressive feat. It’s hard to imagine 2 million people doing anything without someone getting arrested for something. Police deserve a lot of credit, too. Not only in D.C., where law enforcement has a lot of experience with public protest, but in all the cities and towns with sizable sister marches that aren’t often given over to mass demonstrations. Given the level of vitriol displayed on both sides of the nation’s political chasm recenly, the spectacle of millions of citizens engaged in a lawful and peaceful exercise of their rights served as a welcome respite from all the Nazi punching and bleak talk of “American carnage” that dominated the previous day’s events. Way off topic I agree but I didn't bring it up and I felt it deserved push-back. Perhaps it was a display of just how upset people were and that's good. But as an action I'm unsure what you can say it actually did other than rather nebulously suggesting it motivated people which is off course unknowable whether they would have been motivated in its absence. But okay.
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Feb 3, 2020 17:18
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Pretty much every Dem answer period needs to be hammering out that there is ample direct evidence that shows the president abused the power of his office that is being blocked. Talking points that can be screamed out how the gop and majority are actively blocking direct evidence showing crimes because they are scared of the president. And how the majority leader actively fed evidence and advice to the defense to back them. Just scream out (then leak loving everything to every newspaper and news Network)
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Feb 3, 2020 17:19
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xrunner posted:https://www.citylab.com/equity/2017/01/no-arrests-at-womens-march-in-dc-los-angeles-new-york-chicago-austin-seattle/514067/ Peaceful protesting is a bad thing apperently. What was sit ins to you then? Or picket lines and strikes? Protesters usually don't want to be arrested and have that on their record costing them jobs and opportunities. But apperently if they don't they never mattered!
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Feb 3, 2020 17:23
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UCS Hellmaker posted:Pretty much every Dem answer period needs to be hammering out that there is ample direct evidence that shows the president abused the power of his office that is being blocked. Talking points that can be screamed out how the gop and majority are actively blocking direct evidence showing crimes because they are scared of the president. And how the majority leader actively fed evidence and advice to the defense to back them. Just scream out (then leak loving everything to every newspaper and news Network) They should especially be screaming out about how there are literally GOP senators who, AFTER the vote, came out and straight up said "yeah it's obvious he did it, I believe it is wrong, I believe it is impeachable, but I don't care, removing him isn't good". Like leave it to these dumbasses to be taking their victory lap and start bragging before the theater is even over-- the country should have it drilled into their skulls that even the opposition agrees that this is a crime and they don't care. They are now unequivocally complicit with Trump's crimes by attempting to cover them up, and voters need to remember that for the next 9 months and forever forward.
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Feb 3, 2020 17:24
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Fritz Coldcockin posted:It absolutely was not, holy poo poo. You think the Trump administration was totally cool with tens of thousands of women marching on the Mall? I think protest is not useful in today's politics like it was in previous generations. It's a show of support, but not actually doing anything. If a protest has a permit, how much of a protest is it? If they shut down the Trump hotel for a month, or something I would feel differently. It's a lot like impeachment really. Completely symbolic, it will motivate people hopefully to vote, will be recorded in history as a key event, but ultimately changed nothing. Change doesn't come until the Senate is dealt with, so if the womens March motivated enough people to flip the Senate, that's a loving win. If it didn't, then it was a fun thing, but not enough.
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Feb 3, 2020 17:25
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UCS Hellmaker posted:Pretty much every Dem answer period needs to be hammering out that there is ample direct evidence that shows the president abused the power of his office that is being blocked. Talking points that can be screamed out how the gop and majority are actively blocking direct evidence showing crimes because they are scared of the president. And how the majority leader actively fed evidence and advice to the defense to back them. Just scream out (then leak loving everything to every newspaper and news Network) I can't watch right now. Hopefully they are having adam schiff do most of the closing arguments because he has good presence and delivery. He can make pretty good clips for the news. I think that the dems did pretty well in all of this but it was a foregone conclusion. I'm really hoping that this effects the republicans because we really need to start fixing the stuff that has gotten mixed up since reagan, the third way, W, and now finally Trump.
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Feb 3, 2020 17:26
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UCS Hellmaker posted:Peaceful protesting is a bad thing apperently. What was sit ins to you then? Or picket lines and strikes? Protesters usually don't want to be arrested and have that on their record costing them jobs and opportunities. But apperently if they don't they never mattered! I’ll drop it because it’s way off topic. But sit ins weren’t peaceful really. They invited state action and potential violence by breaking the law and entering and holding a space they're not permitted to be in. Strikes and picket lines actually stop work from happening. You have to see how this is different than a well attended rally. HashtagGirlboss fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 17:26
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:If a protest has a permit, how much of a protest is it? my dude there was literally extensive litigation over protest permits during the civil rights movement, you might want to find another talking point than this
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Feb 3, 2020 17:29
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eke out posted:my dude there was literally extensive litigation over protest permits during the civil rights movement, you might want to find another talking point than this Fair enough, but I still don't find a rally to the the same as a protest.
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Feb 3, 2020 17:30
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I think protest is not useful in today's politics like it was in previous generations. It's a show of support, but not actually doing anything. If a protest has a permit, how much of a protest is it?  BY DEFINITION if a protest does these things, it has changed something. Jesus Christ, what planet are you on?
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Feb 3, 2020 17:33
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eke out posted:my dude there was literally extensive litigation over protest permits during the civil rights movement, you might want to find another talking point than this black people marching in the streets and sitting at whites only lunch counters was a direct affront to jim crow that could not go unchallenged. the system was not fundamentally challenged by people marching around for a single day in 2017
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Feb 3, 2020 17:34
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