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zoux posted:In the pilot when they are trying to kidnap the android girl, the Romulan Death Squad is speaking, I presume, Romulan when the one guy goes "SPEAK ENGLISH" and it stuck out to me because I'm not sure that they've ever referred to the language that everyone speaks in the 24th c. as English. I recall Data pissing off Picard by calling French and ancient, dead language in a TNG episode, but have they ever called the lingua franca of the future "English" on screen before? Yeah, it's been specified as English a few times in TOS and Enterprise.
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Feb 3, 2020 17:36
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Lizard Combatant posted:Again this is evidence of nothing, they can make up whatever they like for the intervening years. But that's my point, they haven't.  Maybe thats why he was the one persuing Feds to help Romulans.But yeah, gently caress arguing over lore, this sucks either way and lets hope we get an explanation in-universe. zoux posted:Scottish Highlands I'd watch Star Trek era Highlander, what Duncan MacLeod is up to and all that. poo poo was dope back in the 90s.
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Feb 3, 2020 17:37
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Wait, I missed this upon watching...AntherUslessPoster posted:Then Mars incident happens on the main Federation holiday The synths attacked on Captain Picard day?
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Feb 3, 2020 17:39
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I haven't read the thread, but I just want to vent. I hate Picard so much. I just wanted a nice, optimistic show that I could look forward to in our current dystopian future where humanity has got its poo poo together and become better than we are now. But no, that's not sexy television, so we've got to have a corrupt Star Fleet that hate the Romulans, is infested with operatives, who've created a race of disposable people and everything is pain and suffering. Oh well. I'm just being an old woman yelling at a cloud.
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Feb 3, 2020 17:41
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Admiralty Flag posted:Wait, I missed this upon watching... I appreciate that First Contact day is the main holiday. The Federation really is a Homo Sapiens only club.
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Feb 3, 2020 17:46
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Zaphiel posted:I haven't read the thread, but I just want to vent. I hate Picard so much. I just wanted a nice, optimistic show that I could look forward to in our current dystopian future where humanity has got its poo poo together and become better than we are now. So you're not going to watch any more episodes then?
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Feb 3, 2020 17:46
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zoux posted:So you're not going to watch any more episodes then? I'd love not to, but my husband wants to watch them together. I keep myself sane by pretending it's bad fanfiction. I'm being overdramatic, but TNG is my favourite series and I wanted something different than this.
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Feb 3, 2020 17:50
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It may be that no one blames the Romulans for Mars but the Federation was just attacked and right at its power center. There is no way to know if it will be a one-off or if it is just the first of many. Recalling fleets to Earth and every other Fed world would be the obvious course of action. The choice was then between this and mobilizing absolutely everything to evacuate Romulus. Picard obviously weighed in on hope over fear, and the government did not. Could have been a close choice. They said some worlds threatened to leave the Federation over it. It's lovely but understandable, hey we joined your group in part for protection and now in a time of unprecedented sneak attack and unknown threat you want to send all our ships to help our longtime enemy at the (possible) expense of your own member worlds?? This is a legit moral dilemma worthy of Trek and Picard. I hope we see real discussion of it at least half as often as we see explosions and swordfights.
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Feb 3, 2020 17:52
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I've only ever heard "Scottish Brogue" from Americans, as a Scottish person.Zaphiel posted:I haven't read the thread, but I just want to vent. I hate Picard so much. I just wanted a nice, optimistic show that I could look forward to in our current dystopian future where humanity has got its poo poo together and become better than we are now. A sci-fi story set a few centuries in the future where humanity is not extinct is optimistic IMO Plus come on, everyone above the rank of captain in Starfleet has been a dick since the 1960s.
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Feb 3, 2020 17:55
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Admiral: "Picard I forbid you from rescuing all those dudes from the planet because of galactic realpolitik" Picard: 
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Feb 3, 2020 17:57
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AntherUslessPoster posted:Its not 'FEDERASHUN BAD' it's "not what it used to be" It's not even that. It's "the Federation made one really bad decision 20 years ago when they were backed into a tight spot."
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Feb 3, 2020 18:04
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Drink-Mix Man posted:It's not even that. It's "the Federation made one really bad decision 20 years ago when they were backed into a tight spot." There is a little more to it than that since the journalist seemed to be still supportive of that move, unlike, say, the Iraq war I mean it could have been Space Fox News but why would that be the one group Picard finally agreed to sit down for
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Feb 3, 2020 18:09
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The Bloop posted:It may be that no one blames the Romulans for Mars but the Federation was just attacked and right at its power center. There is no way to know if it will be a one-off or if it is just the first of many. Recalling fleets to Earth and every other Fed world would be the obvious course of action. The choice was then between this and mobilizing absolutely everything to evacuate Romulus.  "The Romulans were our enemies, and we tried to help them for as long as we could. But even before the Synthetics attacked mars, 14 species within the Federation said "Cut the Romulans loose, or we'll pull out. It was a choice between letting The Federation implode or letting the Romulans go." "The Federation does not get to decide if a species lives or dies-" "Yes we do, we absolutely do!" "..." "Thousands of other species depend upon us for unity, for cohesion. We didn't have enough ships left, we had to make choices. But the great Captain Picard didn't like his orders-" I was standing up for the Federation, for what it represents. For what it should still represent!" etc... Okay so some choice lines in there. If this is representative of the Federation government as a whole then I don't see how anyone can argue that it's not a massive ideological shift, it's not just some tough choices BS. Also lol, 14 species... out of thousands? With those kinds of numbers you tell those 14 species (0.7% at the absolute maximum) to go gently caress themselves. And this is before the attack. Let's assume its over 150 planets since that's the number google tells me is actually mentioned in the show at some point, that's what? 9% If it's thousands of worlds now (though I'm assuming that's just the writers not thinking things through) that's uh... quite the minority. And this is the only shipyards? Everything in the show is telling us is that this is an unquestionably immoral decision, like zero debate. Either that or the writers are really loving dense. I'm assuming it's the former. Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 18:13
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Lizard Combatant posted:
Thousands of worlds includes various colonies etc, the Admiral specifies 14 species as I recall, which could be anywhere from 14 world's to a couple hundred, depending on the race. What happens if the Andorians are one of the ones who say gently caress off?
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Feb 3, 2020 18:18
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Fans who want utopian Trek are living in a Fukuyama "end of history" mindset. Yes, these shows have their big problems, and prestige TV has run its course, but I just find the idea that Trek shouldn't be about a broader struggle to be a 90s mindset. Echo Chamber fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 18:19
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I mean, to be fair, this is the same Federation that has an official policy that if you don't have warp technology and your planet is facing destruction, they respect your unique culture too much to keep you from all dying. So that attitude isn't entirely out of character for the Federation. And I'm not arguing the decision to let the Romulans die without helping them isn't an immoral decision. I'm saying that the Federation makes immoral decisions all the time, while the Federation is one of the more benevolent of the big star empires in the Star Trek universe, it's still pretty nasty, and that one of the themes throughout Star Trek since the beginning... TOS, DS9, and yes, TNG, is that the main characters stand up for what's right, often in the face of a Starfleet willing to let bad stuff happen or make pragmatic decisions that betray their stated ideals. Epicurius fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 18:19
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mehall posted:Thousands of worlds includes various colonies etc, the Admiral specifies 14 species as I recall, which could be anywhere from 14 world's to a couple hundred, depending on the race. No she says 14 species vs thousands of species. Not colonies, not worlds. Species. Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 18:20
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mehall posted:Thousands of worlds includes various colonies etc, the Admiral specifies 14 species as I recall, which could be anywhere from 14 world's to a couple hundred, depending on the race. Yeah, I think the difference is the relative influence of those dissenting opinions. If it was 14 bumfuck colonies in the Beta Quadrant, then yeah, oh well. But if it were the Andorians, the Vulcans, or any other big players that could affect the integrity of the entire institution, then the trepidation makes total sense.
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Feb 3, 2020 18:21
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I could see this plot point working a lot better if it were the Dominion instead of Romulans.
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Feb 3, 2020 18:21
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Like guys, the text is explicitly telling you this was a horrifically immoral decision from the ominous music, the outrageous disparity used to justify it, to Picard's horrified reaction to it all and that he's still burnt up about 15 years later. The show wants you to see this as "not Starfleet anymore", that is the author's intent (unless they're a colossal idiot). So... when I say that this is a major ideological shift from what we've previously seen of the Federation that so far has no apparent motivation, what exactly are you arguing against? e: It's really clear, she says 14 species vs a thousand species (continuity issues be damned, the author presumably chooses their words with purpose) Like you're all arguing against what the show is very unambiguously telling you, you're siding with the Admiral. They're even using the most trusted person in the loving franchise to tell you "this isn't Starfleet anymore", what more do you want? "Ur... maybe if it was the Andorians..." Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 18:23
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In the episode where Worf kills a guy or whatever for Klingon honor, Picard tells him there are 13 different planets represented aboard the Enterprise, which struck me as low.
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Feb 3, 2020 18:28
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Echo Chamber posted:Fans who want utopian Trek are living in a Fukuyama "end of history" mindset. This is insulting and stupid.
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Feb 3, 2020 18:34
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Lizard Combatant posted:
That one decision made in the most trying of circumstances by a handful of individuals is not necessarily representative of the Federation ideology, regardless of the outcome
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Feb 3, 2020 18:38
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Being good and moral and holding up one's ideals takes work. It is absolutely believable that a Federation that had just fought a long and nasty war then got sneak-attacked at one of their primary shipyards would be gunshy about trying to rescue the Romulans who have repeatedly shown a desire to conquer the Federation by force in the situation they were in. It wasn't the RIGHT choice and the show emphasizes that but I think the show also wants it to be understandable.
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Feb 3, 2020 18:39
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Southern Irish have a brogue, Scottish people have a brog, northern Irish have a brayeg.
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Feb 3, 2020 18:41
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I'd say the Trek philosophy, especially as it was presented in TNG, is fairly "End of History' in the sense of "now the bad part of humanity is over, we're all good and wise now". I can think of specific quotes of Picard bagging on religion, money/resources, environmentalism and others that involved "evolving past" primitive 20/21st century impulses. It's directly responded to it in First Contact where Picard says "In my century we don't succumb to revenge, we have a more evolved sensibility" and Alfre Woodard is like "You love killing Borg actually".
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Feb 3, 2020 18:41
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Admiralty Flag posted:Wait, I missed this upon watching... Found the No, its the Riker Maneuver celebratory day. Drink-Mix Man posted:It's not even that. It's "the Federation made one really bad decision 20 years ago when they were backed into a tight spot." The aggravation on (of? dammit engrish) the implication here is admiral's reaction to Picard's request tbh. Erulisse fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 18:50
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The Bloop posted:That one decision made in the most trying of circumstances by a handful of individuals is not necessarily representative of the Federation ideology, regardless of the outcome You're still justifying in universe politics. What is the show (ie, the writers/directors) trying to convey here with their characterisation of the Admiral, the music, camera framing, language, the choice of having Picard himself being on the opposing side? VanSandman posted:Being good and moral and holding up one's ideals takes work. It is absolutely believable that a Federation that had just fought a long and nasty war then got sneak-attacked at one of their primary shipyards would be gunshy about trying to rescue the Romulans who have repeatedly shown a desire to conquer the Federation by force in the situation they were in. It wasn't the RIGHT choice and the show emphasizes that but I think the show also wants it to be understandable. I think the show has done everything it can to hammer home "this is not Starfleet anymore". There's no sense of regret about this decision, it appears to be mainstream view shown by Government and civilian news, they've shut down on science research, and there was even something really wrong with the Federation before the attack. This is what the author is telling us. zoux posted:I'd say the Trek philosophy, especially as it was presented in TNG, is fairly "End of History' in the sense of "now the bad part of humanity is over, we're all good and wise now". I can think of specific quotes of Picard bagging on religion, money/resources, environmentalism and others that involved "evolving past" primitive 20/21st century impulses. It's directly responded to it in First Contact where Picard says "In my century we don't succumb to revenge, we have a more evolved sensibility" and Alfre Woodard is like "You love killing Borg actually". Yeah the films that completely threw his character out the window for extremely sloppily plotted action films. Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 18:52
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Lizard Combatant posted:You're still justifying in universe politics. What is the show (ie, the writers/directors) trying to convey here with their characterisation of the Admiral, the music, camera framing, language, the choice of having Picard himself being on the opposing side? I answered the question you asked, but I wasn't offering the sort of argument you want apparently. The show is obviously telling us that Picard is Daddy Starfleet, Moral Paragon and that the mean lady saying gently caress at him is therefore a very bad person who is wrong about all things It doesn't follow to me that "The Federation" has changed much.
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Feb 3, 2020 18:58
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The Bloop posted:I answered the question you asked, but I wasn't offering the sort of argument you want apparently. It has changed because the show says it has, both with it's in universe plot and in the way the show has been made. It literally has Picard ("Daddy Strafleet, Moral Paragon" as you put it), the most trusted character in the franchise say actual lines of dialogue that it is no longer the same organisation as the previous shows. It's not being subtle in its intentions in the slightest. If you want to disagree with that, well buddy that is a weird loving reading I got to say. Now why does this matter? Well, I don't personally like it because this appears to be an unmotivated change that has happened sometime before the events of the show. Others may not like it for reasons purely of personal taste, they may not have wanted a show where the Federation are immoral dicks. You don't need to agree with that personal taste, but you should at least meet them on the same level.
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Feb 3, 2020 19:11
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Lizard Combatant posted:Yeah the films that completely threw his character out the window for extremely sloppily plotted action films. Eh the one place I'll accept action-hero Picard is in that exact context. I can totally buy that Picard would be willing to set aside his morals for the Borg and only the Borg, and I thought they did a good job of centering that moral conflict. Immediately before that scene he calls Worf a coward to his face, which is probably his biggest moral breach actually, which leads to the infinitely dope "If you were any other man..." line.
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Feb 3, 2020 19:12
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zoux posted:Eh the one place I'll accept action-hero Picard is in that exact context. I can totally buy that Picard would be willing to set aside his morals for the Borg and only the Borg, and I thought they did a good job of centering that moral conflict. Immediately before that scene he calls Worf a coward to his face, which is probably his biggest moral breach actually, which leads to the infinitely dope "If you were any other man..." line. (I'll admit I have a very small soft spot for First Contact. If you were ever going to have Picard lose it, it's there. Still not a good film.)
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Feb 3, 2020 19:13
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Of course the other unexplored option is that it just wasn't very well written...  Since when are there thousands of species in the Federation? But it's still too early to make that call, imo. I hope the Borg reclamation stuff if good, that stuff could be pretty dang cool.
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Feb 3, 2020 19:26
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I kind of like how for the first time, the heroic Captain breaking orders has to live with the fallout of betraying the admirality, rather than being exonerated by his heroism. Regardless of the ethics of the situation, no poo poo there would be plenty of people who hate guys like Kirk and Picard for coming off as so high and mighty. To me, that's what a lot of the Admiral's character motivation seemed to be. She's like "Hey, the rest of us don't get to decide what lovely orders we disobey, what makes you so special?" It's a nice deconstruction of the heroic rebel captain trope. Drink-Mix Man fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 19:33
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Hello I would simply like one starship, one crew and as a bonus for you, I'll accept a demotion to Captain. When do I leave.
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Feb 3, 2020 19:38
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zoux posted:Hello I would simply like one starship, one crew and as a bonus for you, I'll accept a demotion to Captain. When do I leave. Yeah, that was a wonderfully tone deaf and pompous moment for Picard. He’s still used to all the times Starfleet had bent to his requests, but now...he doesn’t have as much influence. It works both to show the state Starfleet currently is in, and as a general comment on aging and dealing with the fear of the world moving on without you.
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Feb 3, 2020 19:43
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Drink-Mix Man posted:I kind of like how for the first time, the heroic Captain breaking orders has to live with the fallout of betraying the admirality, rather than being exonerated by his heroism. Regardless of the ethics of the situation, no poo poo there would be plenty of people who hate guys like Kirk and Picard for coming off as so high and mighty. I like that aspect of it too. zoux posted:Hello I would simply like one starship, one crew and as a bonus for you, I'll accept a demotion to Captain. When do I leave. Not only that, he brought literally zero evidence with him to support his case. He really hosed that meeting up.
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Feb 3, 2020 19:44
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LOL I mean, Picard is my personal fictional hero, and even I was like "Oh, yeah, when you put it that way I guess it is a little presumptuous."
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Feb 3, 2020 19:45
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zoux posted:Hello I would simply like one starship, one crew and as a bonus for you, I'll accept a demotion to Captain. When do I leave. Sheer loving HUBRIS
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Feb 3, 2020 19:46
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nine-gear crow posted:Sheer loving HUBRIS Probably the best line of the show so far. (sorry anti-swear crew, I get why you don't like it)
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Feb 3, 2020 19:48
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