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Wow, indie-Destiny sounds like even more of a shitshow and even less like something I'd ever want to play than before. What the hell? 
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Feb 4, 2020 04:38
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Those are a lot of words for a bad game but I vaguely remember writing a similarly long rant on how bad Destiny 2 is because goddamn, that game is a trash fire.
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Feb 4, 2020 05:15
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CJacobs posted:Destiny 2's horrible transition to f2p turned me off of the game forever. I picked it up when it went free and I don't even want to play it because it's such a mess. New players start with endgame level gear which is just the basic gear but level 300. There's no power progression because you start with every skill, every map, every game mode, every class, every difficulty unlocked. Everything you pick up does the same damage even if it's higher leveled because enemies scale directly to your power level. The actual story of the game is given to an npc in the hub they don't even point you toward. It just feels like there's no point in playing it because I got plopped down at the endgame when I booted it up for the first time. It's insanely sloppy. I really enjoyed the d2 campaign, I'm glad I saw it before f2p hit
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Feb 4, 2020 05:52
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muscles like this! posted:Kind of like how in DE:HR for some reason they decided that your lethal melee attack made sound even though it isn't really all that different from the non-lethal attack mechanically. They gave Adam arm swords and you basically are pushed away from ever actually using them.
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Feb 4, 2020 05:57
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sebmojo posted:I really enjoyed the d2 campaign, I'm glad I saw it before f2p hit Yeah once I found and started playing it I was like "oh this is really unique and I like that it feels like a fully realized world"... And then I realized nothing I picked up mattered because my ratty patchwork clothes were already level 300 or whatever. The campaign gave me a sick revolver legendary unique weapon that was worse than the gun I started with which is literally described as "almost useless but better than nothing". Like I get it, the choice was between letting players dive right into whatever activity they wanted or creating a barrier of sorts by keeping in hours of mandatory preliminary linear progression. They made the right call for the kind of game they want Destiny 2 to be, but man does it alternate people who want any kind of structure (like me). CJacobs has a new favorite as of 07:22 on Feb 4, 2020 |
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Feb 4, 2020 07:19
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CJacobs posted:Destiny 2's horrible transition to f2p turned me off of the game forever. I picked it up when it went free and I don't even want to play it because it's such a mess. New players start with endgame level gear which is just the basic gear but level 300. There's no power progression because you start with every skill, every map, every game mode, every class, every difficulty unlocked. Everything you pick up does the same damage even if it's higher leveled because enemies scale directly to your power level. The actual story of the game is given to an npc in the hub they don't even point you toward. It just feels like there's no point in playing it because I got plopped down at the endgame when I booted it up for the first time. It's insanely sloppy. I know this is drifting away from the point of the thread, but more and more with MMOs and faux-MMO-like games like Destiny or the Division I've found myself asking; why even is there a grind for the endgame nowadays? It seems like the majority of players always treat leveling or whatever as a necessary, bland chore to do so they can get to the meat of whatever game it is - raids, dungeons, whatever. More often than not it's usually because whatever you'd get during leveling is completely and utterly useless at the end, right? And more often than not, there's complaints about the endgame at that point too - not enough instanced content, the treadmill ends too quickly... Surely there's space out there now for a game that cuts the effort in making Another Leveling Quest Hub that can be shoved into more endgame stuff. EDIT: Actually to wrap it back into PYF "little" thing that drags it down - Knowing to get into like, most MMOs these days and catch up with friends I'd have to level or grind for relative ages just makes me go start up something easier to jump in and go with instead.
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Feb 4, 2020 07:49
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imo leveling is the game. The story progression of many MMOs is necessary to get you to actually care about what you're doing instead of just clicking on red health bars until they're empty. If you're treating the lead-up to the roulette wheel endgame like it's a grind, I feel like all you're doing is diminishing the fun for yourself. What's the hurry? edit: You edited your post while I was making mine! Regarding your edit I will say that I am pro-"skip ahead" passes or potions of instant level-to-the-endgame or whatever. If that's what people are looking for, give it to them- for a small price in exchange for skipping dozens of hours of handcrafted content to get to the more randomized/radiant stuff. But to do what Destiny 2 did and shove the story in a broom closet where no one will find it is just the wrong way to do it entirely. CJacobs has a new favorite as of 07:55 on Feb 4, 2020 |
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Feb 4, 2020 07:53
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John Murdoch posted:As for Dishonored, the problem with high chaos is that they assumed player likes killing dudes -> reward them with more dudes to kill was an airtight premise and...it's not? Like even ignoring how much the morality system envelops everything, how lopsided the gameplay is, and additional outside bullshit like achievements it's really, really, really drat hard to spin "you did so well murdering everyone now the next level is even more difficult!" as anything other than a punishment. I can see what they were thinking. A stealth game needs fewer enemies than an action game, so if they detect that the player is playing an action game then add more enemies. But then they tied it into the morality system, and also nonlethal/lethal isn't the same as stealth/action so it all doesn't quite work.
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Feb 4, 2020 08:55
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sebmojo posted:I really enjoyed the d2 campaign, I'm glad I saw it before f2p hit  , I enjoyed the base game campaign just fine, and played it some time after PC launch up to Curse of Osiris (I stopped playing just before Warmind came out). Since I didn't raid or do the higher tier dungeons (that didn't have matchmaking when I played, not sure about now), I ran into the soft cap easily and it sucked having all gear be vendor trash at or below your power level. But the progression was serviceable overall and, importantly, easy to grasp.Then they decided to shake up everything with Forsaken and that already sounded somewhat confusing and also kinda elitist, in the way that it hosed with casual play and mostly rewarded hardcore players? I didn't really follow it but that was the impression I got. I tried to start playing D2 again when they moved to Steam but quickly gave up because somehow the game got more confusing with the new start and all the stats and rolls. Perhaps I would have dealt with this 10 years ago but nowadays I have better things to do with my game time than deal with RNG layers on top of RNG layers that looked like they were tuned specifically for people who play the game all day, every day.
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Feb 4, 2020 10:52
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Samuringa posted:Those are a lot of words for a bad game but I vaguely remember writing a similarly long rant on how bad Destiny 2 is because goddamn, that game is a trash fire. And that's just their new armor system. I could write, at length, about why Destiny 2 is a bad game in other ways because it's a bad game. So, so bad.
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Feb 4, 2020 12:49
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Honestly the sad thing is that its not a fundamentally bad game, its a bad game because bungie doesn't have any idea on how to make it good, so they just put in long grinds every season that don't realistically matter. The only reason people actively grind for stuff like ritual weapons or grind out multiple moon weapons is because they ran out of things to do, its why despite how hosed it is for non longtime players random stat rolls have been received fairly well among the community. Without random stats people could be done with seasonal stuff in a month or less and the hardcore playerbase need a excuse to play the game rather than just playing for fun. I tend to enjoy it a lot more when I'm making progress on stuff like exotics because those are things that actually matter and can be game changers, but these days even exotic armor has random stat rolls and man that sucks really bad. Edit: Actually wait hold on, are you seriously telling me symmetry had a champion mod and they removed it simply because nearly everyone was using it? because that's a prime example of treating symptoms (people need to use terrible champion mods so they use the one cool gun that has it) over the problem (why the gently caress dont all exotics have a champion mod type). Its not even that hard to figure out what would go on what guns because most exotics have enough character that you could probably fit at least 2 of the 3 types and have it make sense, and it would go a long way to make them feel even more powerful. Zoig has a new favorite as of 15:19 on Feb 4, 2020 |
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Feb 4, 2020 15:14
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Yeah the shooting in Destiny 2 is really solid and like I said the game world is very unique and well-realized. It's just that the execution is crazy bad.
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Feb 4, 2020 15:17
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I just don't understand why these games require an endgame, and why people get mad when they don't. Like, why can't these games just have a start, middle, and end, without worrying about grinding endgame raids or whatever for, well, no reason. If it was an MMO where you paid a monthly fee, sure, I can see why you'd want more content, but in a pay-once kind of game?
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Feb 4, 2020 16:00
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Morpheus posted:I just don't understand why these games require an endgame, and why people get mad when they don't.
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Feb 4, 2020 16:21
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orcane posted:But it's not a pay once game. It's a live service game, ie. they want you to keep playing forever so you'll end up buying skins, classes, and all the other DLC for sale through item shops with their own monopoly money, like literally all major Ubisoft, Activision and EA properties. That's why they're all using levels, unlocks and "endgame" grinds, so you can never "finish" the game and put it down. Fair enough, but then why do a number of people who buy the game get annoyed when there isn't some sort of monotonous endgame grind?
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Feb 4, 2020 16:30
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Morpheus posted:Fair enough, but then why do a number of people who buy the game get annoyed when there isn't some sort of monotonous endgame grind? I'll see how the game goes I guess but I found it all pretty offputting
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Feb 4, 2020 16:44
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Morpheus posted:Fair enough, but then why do a number of people who buy the game get annoyed when there isn't some sort of monotonous endgame grind? The audience for these games are people who want a Forever Game they can spend years getting dopamine hits from watching numbers go up, the monotonous grind is the point because they're basically gambling addicts. It's why they spend so much time complaining while still playing, they're literally hooked.
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Feb 4, 2020 17:06
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Tiggum posted:It's not just the sound, it's basically got no benefits and several drawbacks. The only positive is that dead people can't be woken up by their friends, but given how reluctant NPCs are to leave their designated areas that almost never happens anyway, and you can always just knock them out again. There's really no cost/benefit trade-off to consider at all. Nonlethal is just better. It's even easier to execute since nonlethal is press and lethal is hold. I genuinely did not know that unconscious people in Human Revolution could be revived. Never seen that happen.
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Feb 4, 2020 17:06
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Sleeveless posted:The audience for these games are people who want a Forever Game they can spend years getting dopamine hits from watching numbers go up, the monotonous grind is the point because they're basically gambling addicts. It's why they spend so much time complaining while still playing, they're literally hooked.
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Feb 4, 2020 17:17
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Sleeveless posted:The audience for these games are people who want a Forever Game they can spend years getting dopamine hits from watching numbers go up, the monotonous grind is the point because they're basically gambling addicts. It's why they spend so much time complaining while still playing, they're literally hooked. It doesn't even matter if that pisses off a significant number of your players. From MMOs and mobile games we know all it takes is a handful of whales who will drop thousands on your game to make up for a vast majority of "normal" players who never spend much or any additional money in item shops, so live service grinds we get. The same principle applies to lootboxes, even if the majority of players hate them they don't really have a choice in most genres, and they're still profitable to publishers because it only takes a few addicts to make up for pissing off a large number of players who DON'T have a gambling problem.
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Feb 4, 2020 17:25
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The majority of players don't spend additional income on microtransactions, and even if they do it's not significant enough to make any difference. Its a very small percentage of people that do, and sustain this whole model.
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Feb 4, 2020 17:45
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What the gently caress did they do to Destiny in the four months I stopped playing it
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Feb 4, 2020 18:26
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Nothing, its just the problems that existed on the initial steam release are still there 5 months later making them far more inexcusable.
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Feb 4, 2020 18:41
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RBA Starblade posted:What the gently caress did they do to Destiny in the four months I stopped playing it
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Feb 4, 2020 18:49
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I don’t know if I’m enjoying The Outer Worlds. I like the aesthetic. I like the characters. I like the story(ies). I loved New Vegas. I just can’t quite figure out why, after 20 hours, I’m still feeling like it’s a bit of a chore.
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Feb 4, 2020 22:17
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Qwertycoatl posted:I can see what they were thinking. A stealth game needs fewer enemies than an action game, so if they detect that the player is playing an action game then add more enemies. But then they tied it into the morality system, and also nonlethal/lethal isn't the same as stealth/action so it all doesn't quite work. Exactly. I also wonder if the fact that they threw up a screen outright explaining "yo if you gently caress around, the game will gently caress around right back" was a bad move (see also: all of the end of mission stats constantly keeping you informed at all times of exactly how naughty you've been). I feel like the end result is players that are less concerned about the actual morality of going on a bloody revenge tour and more worried about being judged by the mechanical System itself. And then it gets even more confused when all of the non-lethal options for dealing with your targets are extra super hosed up compared to just killing them. John Murdoch has a new favorite as of 22:46 on Feb 4, 2020 |
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Feb 4, 2020 22:44
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John Murdoch posted:Exactly. I also wonder if the fact that they threw up a screen outright explaining "yo if you gently caress around, the game will gently caress around right back" was a bad move (see also: all of the end of mission stats constantly keeping you informed at all times of exactly how naughty you've been). I feel like the end result is players that are less concerned about the actual morality of going on a bloody revenge tour and more worried about being judged by the mechanical System itself. I feel like if it wasn’t pegged to something that was presented as a morality system, it would have been better received. It’s awesome when games react to how you play, it’s less awesome when it feels like you’re jammed into some kind of binary of “lots of dudes” or “less dudes, because you’re nice”. I liked how Alpha Protocol had things presented as “professional/aggressive/Sterling Archer” and would give you benefits depending on which you chose- and sometimes that would alter levels in appropriate ways. If you’ve been going loud in Russia, the marine guards at the embassy will be better equipped because they’ve heard about the chaos... but if you show up in combat armor you can bluff them that you’re backing them up and walk right in! It did it without judging your play style directly or making it based on if you killed people or just knocked them out. Characters would react to your methods but that feels more authentic than high/low chaos.
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Feb 4, 2020 22:51
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Y'all talking about a spy game where you can play it Sterling Archer makes me want an X-Com game where you can play it as Sealab.
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Feb 4, 2020 22:54
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Ugly In The Morning posted:
It's the three JBs, immaculately professional Jason Bourne, incredibly violent dickhead jack bauer, and incessantly arrogant douche james bond.
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Feb 4, 2020 22:59
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John Murdoch posted:Good to know that nonsense carried forward from Primal. it got so ridiculous by the last 2 or 3 levels i gave up on stealth and just ran to the targets with like 10 guards chasing me, killed them, and ran back to the boat with the entire base chasing me.
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Feb 4, 2020 22:59
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Death of the Outsider got it right by just removing the good/evil aspect and making the ending based on specific actions instead. High Chaos suits the Dishonored story but it's pretty clearly the "bad" ending.
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Feb 4, 2020 23:17
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I'm chasing Dragonquest 11 with Tokyo Mirage Sessions and man does it look like butt in comparison
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Feb 5, 2020 00:34
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Ugly In The Morning posted:I feel like if it wasn’t pegged to something that was presented as a morality system, it would have been better received. It’s awesome when games react to how you play, it’s less awesome when it feels like you’re jammed into some kind of binary of “lots of dudes” or “less dudes, because you’re nice”. An analogous situation is SiN Episodes, which touted a dynamic difficulty system that would react to the player's actions. The end result was that if you spent the early levels headshotting enemies, then they'd start coming equipped with helmets and impenetrable face shields and such, promptly making GBS threads on players who went for headshots too often. The takeaway is largely the same: Most players don't want super smart opponents that can dynamically counter their every move. What they want are enemies that seem at least mildly clever but are otherwise sloppy and easily bested. That's part of the whole power fantasy fulfillment angle that games build themselves on. John Murdoch has a new favorite as of 01:01 on Feb 5, 2020 |
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Feb 5, 2020 00:54
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Dq11 let you use the zl button as a confirm button and after 90 hours of that only getting a face button is madness
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Feb 5, 2020 00:57
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John Murdoch posted:An analogous situation is SiN Episodes, which touted a dynamic difficulty system that would react to the player's actions. The end result was that if you spent the early levels headshotting enemies, then they'd start coming equipped with helmets and impenetrable face shields and such, promptly making GBS threads on players who went for headshots too often. Dynamic difficulty is so hard to get right. I think Max Payne was the first game to do that in a shooter and it hosed it up- if you quickloaded it wouldn’t count that death, it would only realize you died if you loaded from the menu. Most players spent the whole game with the difficulty maxed out- it was never really unfairly difficult but it was a pretty drat hard game even if you had the difficulty working properly.
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Feb 5, 2020 01:01
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Ugly In The Morning posted:Dynamic difficulty is so hard to get right. I think Max Payne was the first game to do that in a shooter and it hosed it up- if you quickloaded it wouldn’t count that death, it would only realize you died if you loaded from the menu. Most players spent the whole game with the difficulty maxed out- it was never really unfairly difficult but it was a pretty drat hard game even if you had the difficulty working properly. There were definitely specific spots in Max Payne where if you were on the wrong side of the dynamic difficulty you were extremely hosed. Primarily I remember the skyscraper lobby where it would crank up the number of grenade launcher snipers waiting for you around a blind corner from like, 1 maybe 2 all the way up to 5.
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Feb 5, 2020 01:06
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Ugly In The Morning posted:Max Payne My mind was blown when I read this years later, it explained a lot about how I felt during my playthrough, and I didn't have the experience at the time to even think that maybe things weren't quite right.
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Feb 5, 2020 01:08
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John Murdoch posted:There were definitely specific spots in Max Payne where if you were on the wrong side of the dynamic difficulty you were extremely hosed. Primarily I remember the skyscraper lobby where it would crank up the number of grenade launcher snipers waiting for you around a blind corner from like, 1 maybe 2 all the way up to 5. I made it through that without taking too many tries... only because I had figured out that you couldn’t die during a shoot dodge, even if you took a grenade launcher to the dome.
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Feb 5, 2020 01:13
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If you ever replay Max Payne I highly recommend you open up the relevant data file with a visual studio text editor and copy the New York Minute adaptive difficulty over the normal one, it makes the game a much more consistent and enjoyable experience. And it's also pretty easy to do. You can't die in nym or else you start the level over so it has neutral adaptive difficulty that can't change.
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Feb 5, 2020 01:15
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While we're on the topic, has anyone played Max Payne 1/2 to know if they hold up at all? In my post-Control Remedy playthrough I started with Alan Wake. I only played the Max Paynes back in the day, and I wasn't sure whether they'd be worth revisiting or to leave them as fond memories.
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Feb 5, 2020 01:16
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