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goddamnedtwisto posted:36% of Wales voted for the Tories last year, wind your loving neck in. Wow, if 36% is a majority, I don't know why we were arguing about brexit so long.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:18
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Guavanaut posted:Thus proving that treating 'England' as a single region is a bad idea. I live in reality okay, until england is devolved/split, you're going to have this issue of it having inherently more power than the other members of the UK, but it's not going to be split anytime soon and that is what we're working with. I wish it was and we can jack off all we want about how it might look in the future but it isn't right now and that alone is damaging for the entire UK.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:18
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Simmer down now Ash, the English are talking. We should just shut up and listen.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:21
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Ash Crimson posted:Remind us, how many seats/MP does wales have in comparison to england? What the gently caress has that got to do with anything? Stop trying to pretend that Wales is a perfect homogenous bloc of righteousness while England is a monolith of evil that imposes Torydom for shits and giggles. Your neighbours voted Tory and almost certainly at a higher rate than mine in London did.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:21
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Saith posted:Wow, if 36% is a majority, I don't know why we were arguing about brexit so long. Who's talking about majorities? If it comes to it a majority of English people didn't vote Tory, so by Special Ash Logic England is also a victim of England.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:24
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Everyone but Scotland is shite. If you're no shite you can petition to be Scottish and your application will be taken on a case by case basis. Liverpool? That's Scottish. Ireland voting Sinn Fein? That's Scottish. Bernie Sanders? True Jew Scotsman. Wales? English until they get their act together.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:24
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goddamnedtwisto posted:What the gently caress has that got to do with anything? Stop trying to pretend that Wales is a perfect homogenous bloc of righteousness while England is a monolith of evil that imposes Torydom for shits and giggles. Your neighbours voted Tory and almost certainly at a higher rate than mine in London did. I can't help someone if they think Wales has in anyway an equvialent voice or vote, a country with 40 seats compared to England which has 533 alone. You don't get it and you never will.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:26
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Who's talking about majorities? If it comes to it a majority of English people didn't vote Tory, so by Special Ash Logic England is also a victim of England. So why bring it up lol? It's such a pathetic strawman, all I can do is mock it.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:27
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https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1227165803247816705 LET ME IN
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Feb 11, 2020 11:30
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I think a new state on the mainland would be a useful experiment. We can speculate about whether they'll turn blue, or whether they'll usher in a TERF empire, or whether there'll be a mass exodus of lefties from England enough to saturate the new state with left wing thought. The only way to know is to do it. Whether it's done on existing borders with existing nationalist causes, or whether Liverpool decides it's now a city state, I'd like to see it tried. New state on the mainland. Also, we can't say it's unreasonable to expect Scotland or Wales to hold left without looking at the splinter in our own eye. The socialist project is just as unlikely here as anywhere. Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 11:36 on Feb 11, 2020 |
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Feb 11, 2020 11:33
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Abso-fuckinglutely-not
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Feb 11, 2020 11:33
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Come Kip My Lord
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Feb 11, 2020 11:35
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Guavanaut posted:So what happens if Jamaica, in accordance with respecting the rule of law (and not wanting to bear the brunt for a racist double standard on British Caribbean criminals vs. 'white' criminals), forbids the plane to land? It runs out of fuel and falls into the ocean
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Feb 11, 2020 11:36
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If you're going for nuanceless condemnation of demographic groups for being poo poo Tories why are you blaming the English rather than the elderly? That's a much stronger connection.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:36
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I could be wrong, but even if every seat in Wales and Scotland returned Solid Labour MP's we'd still have a conservative government, even if it was a minority one.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:37
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If you invite a vampire in over night, does it then have access whenever or is it just a one-time gig? namesake posted:If you're going for nuanceless condemnation of demographic groups for being poo poo Tories why are you blaming the English rather than the elderly? That's a much stronger connection. Typical, throwing your own nan under the bus.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:38
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Are you guys arguing that Wales and Scotland should have equal representation despite having much lower populations than England? Or are you arguing they should be independent countries? The first is obviously a problem, the second also, but because of logistical and economical issues (as far as I can tell with Wales moreso than Scotland) which tbf are England's fault. By that logic London should be an independent state as well? Yeah Scotland and Wales have been hosed over by England, and I'm sympathetic to people who want much bigger devolution to smaller areas because obviously different areas of the UK have very different needs, but to suggest that it's uniquely an English thing as opposed to a class warfare thing seems bizarre. Even if Wales and Scotland have more class consciousness than England because of their historic treatment I suspect if they manage independence you'll see roughly the same issues play out but with urban/rural places in those countries. What I'm getting at is that we need more international solidarity, even between the UK's countries, because I don't think either Scotland or Wales will manage a socialist utopia if they manage to get rid of the English (who to be clear, are mostly poo poo and mostly vote like poo poo).
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Feb 11, 2020 11:39
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Ash Crimson posted:I can't help someone if they think Wales has in anyway an equvialent voice or vote, a country with 40 seats compared to England which has 533 alone. I'm not talking about an equivalent voice, I'm saying that there are almost as many Tories in Wales as there are in England *by proportion* so trying to claim some moral superiority based on the side of a completely arbitrary line is brain poison.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:40
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Ash Crimson posted:I could be wrong, but even if every seat in Wales and Scotland returned Solid Labour MP's we'd still have a conservative government, even if it was a minority one. You could make exactly the same argument wrt to north/south England. One of them has more seats and so has disproportionate power over the others. That's how representative democracy works, by 50%+1 bullying everyone else into doing what they want. Your issue sounds like it's with that, not the borders that decide who gets bullied.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:41
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forkboy84 posted:If the government won't respect the rule of law why should anyone else? Absolute scum. They have, apparently. The article says that those covered by the court order were not on the plane (it only affected those who were on the O2 network).
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Feb 11, 2020 11:42
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goddamnedtwisto posted:I'm not talking about an equivalent voice, I'm saying that there are almost as many Tories in Wales as there are in England *by proportion* so trying to claim some moral superiority based on the side of a completely arbitrary line is brain poison. Okay.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:44
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Qwertycoatl posted:It runs out of fuel and falls into the ocean I'm not sure why Jamaica specifically is the target destination for all these deportees, other than deep echos of the transatlantic trade. You'd think they'd pick Sierra Leone if they were going for historical 'not racist' deportations. Miftan posted:Are you guys arguing that Wales and Scotland should have equal representation despite having much lower populations than England? Or are you arguing they should be independent countries? The first is obviously a problem, the second also, but because of logistical and economical issues (as far as I can tell with Wales moreso than Scotland) which tbf are England's fault. By that logic London should be an independent state as well?
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Feb 11, 2020 11:45
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Miftan posted:You could make exactly the same argument wrt to north/south England. One of them has more seats and so has disproportionate power over the others. That's how representative democracy works, by 50%+1 bullying everyone else into doing what they want. Your issue sounds like it's with that, not the borders that decide who gets bullied. And the obvious flip side of such thinking is when Tories point at the almost entirely blue map and say "WHY DO "THOSE PEOPLE" IN THE CITIES GET TO TELL THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY WHAT TO DO?" Dirt doesn't vote, flags don't vote, people vote. I completely understand peoples wish to sever ties with the idiots who vote against their own interests (and have only semi-jokingly offered to man the barricades at the North Circular to keep Bad London out) but nationalism is loving stupid and if anything helps the Tory cause by dividing the working class and setting them against each other based on what side of a completely man-made line they live instead of uniting against the common enemy. goddamnedtwisto fucked around with this message at 11:50 on Feb 11, 2020 |
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Feb 11, 2020 11:48
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Ash Crimson posted:Okay. Are the people on your side of the magical line who voted Tory better people than the people on the other side of the line?
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Feb 11, 2020 11:49
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It's like life asked What if Dracula had the charisma of dogshit and has to engage in increasingly pathetic ploys to gain access to victims. goddamnedtwisto posted:Who's talking about majorities? If it comes to it a majority of English people didn't vote Tory, so by Special Ash Logic England is also a victim of England. I dunno if it takes special logic to state the obvious fact England's a victim of England.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:49
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Guavanaut posted:It could probably force a landing at the Cayman Islands or Turks & Caicos, because they're both British. That house is going to get splintered forever as northumbria, Essex, Yorkshire, Lancashire, etc all argue they aren't a part of England and deserve their own equal number of representatives.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:49
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Ash Crimson posted:I could be wrong, but even if every seat in Wales and Scotland returned Solid Labour MP's we'd still have a conservative government, even if it was a minority one. If every seat in the south west returned Labour MPs we'd still have a Tory government. If every seat in the north east etc. etc you can get the idea. If every Highland seat returned a Labour MP/MSP we'd still have a SNP Government at Holyrood. Should teuchters get independence from the rest of Scotland? By all means argue for Scottish and Welsh independence if you want (I'm probably voting Yes if we get another indyref) but you need a less shite argument than this because it's silly
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Feb 11, 2020 11:51
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Ash Crimson posted:I could be wrong, but even if every seat in Wales and Scotland returned Solid Labour MP's we'd still have a conservative government, even if it was a minority one. I hear variations of this all the time (in the context of Scotland), and it's always smugly brought out as if it's a sure-fire argument winner. If you pick any assortment of constituencies totalling ~8.5 million people this will be true. This is how democracy works, even when it's a poo poo result. What's interesting is that it essentially just tells people you value nationalism over democracy, and there's this implicit suggestion that Scotland, Wales and England should be equal in terms of representation despite England's population being an order of magnitude larger. Which is an argument, I guess, but not an especially compelling one.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:52
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Are the people on your side of the magical line who voted Tory better people than the people on the other side of the line? Did i ever say they were?
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Feb 11, 2020 11:53
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Puntification posted:I dunno if it takes special logic to state the obvious fact England's a victim of England. This is a fair point, to be honest. It's almost as if nations are irrelevant when talking about this and we should be talking about things like class interests instead.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:53
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Ash Crimson posted:Did i ever say they were? Yes, repeatedly, by claiming that their votes should be worth more than the votes of people on the other side of the line.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:54
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Time for the monthly "Restore the Heptarchy" post
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Feb 11, 2020 11:55
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goddamnedtwisto posted:And the obvious flip side of such thinking is when Tories point at the almost entirely blue map and say "WHY DO "THOSE PEOPLE" IN THE CITIES GET TO TELL THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY WHAT TO DO?" Dirt doesn't vote, flags don't vote, people vote. The first paragraph is a very good point about the obvious counter argument for viewing people as distinct countries as opposed to haves and have-nots, but I can see the appeal if your side has traditionally been only have nots. The problem as I see it is that if the argument is along those lines instead of socialism, once the have nots on your side of border become haves, they'll do exactly what the English have always done. The second paragraph is interesting because I sometimes wonder if these jokey ways we still do things like that (eg the whole war of the Roses thing which people joke about All The loving Time up here) contribute to being more welcoming to bullshit nationalist logic. We don't accept it when people generalise, even jokingly, about other countries, but its fine if Lancashire are all idiots or the Welsh all gently caress sheep for some reason. I know I've been guilty of this myself even very recently, it's what got me thinking about it. I'm gonna try and do it less, but bringing this up to other people just gets you either 'it's just a joke lighten up' (which was used for racism and still is!) or outright racism in response.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:56
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The gently caress is going on in here with people throwing "you lot" in a thread full of Tory haters?
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Feb 11, 2020 12:00
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Miftan posted:That house is going to get splintered forever as northumbria, Essex, Yorkshire, Lancashire, etc all argue they aren't a part of England and deserve their own equal number of representatives. *they are not legally a county, but they believe they should be, so registered their district council as 'Rutland County Council', giving it the full title of Rutland County Council District Council. e: ^^ nationalism
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Feb 11, 2020 12:02
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Guavanaut posted:You'd need a solid definition of what constitutes a region first, to stop people playing silly buggers like Rutland*, but basing it on min/max population areas or statistical regions sounds like the best way to avoid land voting. The Rutland thing is amazingly petty and I am 100% here for it.
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Feb 11, 2020 12:04
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Miftan posted:Are you guys arguing that Wales and Scotland should have equal representation despite having much lower populations than England? Or are you arguing they should be independent countries? The first is obviously a problem, the second also, but because of logistical and economical issues (as far as I can tell with Wales moreso than Scotland) which tbf are England's fault. By that logic London should be an independent state as well? That is a fantastic post, and I'm so happy you decided to engage with me, rather than throw out insults based on the same old Cymrophobic cliches. Miftan posted:Are you guys arguing that Wales and Scotland should have equal representation despite having much lower populations than England? This is the inherent contradiction within the UK, right? There's no just way to make the democracy work. Either I, as a Cymry, have a wildly disproportionate amount of power and influence with my vote (we have a population of about 3 mil compared to England's population of about 55 mil. If we had equal representation, and if my maths is right, my vote would be worth that of 17-18 English votes which is clearly unfair) or we have the situation we're in now where our best chance is to hope the English get their poo poo together... And when they do, well... Labour just ignores us and takes us for granted. It's better than Tories going out of their way to gently caress us over, but it's not great. Miftan posted:Or are you arguing they should be independent countries? Ideally. It's the only way to resolve the contradiction here. I mean, if were given equal representation in order o stay, I certainly wouldn't say no, but... Again, that's not really fair, is it? quote:The first is obviously a problem, the second also, but because of logistical and economical issues quote:What I'm getting at is that we need more international solidarity, even between the UK's countries, because I don't think either Scotland or Wales will manage a socialist utopia if they manage to get rid of the English There is nothing I would love more than working in international solidarity with my English comrades as partners. Not as lackeys, not as servants, and not just going along with whatever the great English left dictates. And no, of course it wouldn't be a utopia. Utopia is impossible by definition. But the perfect is the enemy of good, so if we ever have the opportunity to improve our material conditions, I don't think any English person has a right to stand in our way.
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Feb 11, 2020 12:04
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Years ago Adam and Joe wanted to do this for their radio show, basically sleep in different listeners houses each week and do the show from there You could hear the producer saying 'no no no no' behind the glass. That producer should really speak to Rory.
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Feb 11, 2020 12:05
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And class reductionism is no bueno you cunts.
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Feb 11, 2020 12:06
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Ash Crimson posted:I can't help someone if they think Wales has in anyway an equivalent voice or vote, a country with 40 seats compared to England which has 533 alone. 55.98M ppl in england / 3.14M ppl in wales = 17.8 (17 english people for every welsh person) 533 english MPs / 40 welsh MPs = 13.3 (13 english mps for every welsh one) So wales is slightly over-represented in parliament? The only way your point remotely makes sense is if someone from Oswestry is functionally different (worth more than?) someone from over the border in Wrexham etc. Is that the thing I'll never get?
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Feb 11, 2020 12:14
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