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Okay the thread seems to be a lot more volatile than I expected when I peeked in earlier.Trin Tragula posted:Lord Ashcroft has released his assessment of what went wrong for Labour at the election. There's a lot of interesting information in this but it's always a bit whiffy when a Tory peer goes "this is why Labour need to change."
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Feb 11, 2020 16:38
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Prince John posted:The passage of time, perhaps? I think in part it's because up until fairly recently Ireland was still openly resisting imperial power, whereas Scotland and Wales had become (from the point of view of said Imperial Power) part of it. I think it's good to have a talk about poo poo like this, because it clearly matters to people even if it is uncomfortable. The problem is that I don't think you can create a small independent polity and not have it reliant on the larger semi-imperial power next door. It also means that we, as part of the central province and prime Imperial Power have to grapple with the uncomfortable aspect of both being the disregarded dregs of someone with power and still being technically above others. It leads to a big old problem, not helped by the fact that Ash Crimson is more nihilistic and morose than myself, who is continually medicated, and that anger is an easy thing to do when faced with despair.
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Feb 11, 2020 16:40
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a pipe smoking dog posted:I've got to say that this thread is definitely making me think that maybe the UK does need to be broken up after all. The history of African and Caribbean participation within trade unions makes a positive case for self-organization within larger groups, pushing for a position of relative autonomy instead of separatism or submersion within a supposed race-blind union, and that kind of thing sounds far preferable to throwing up borders and states everywhere (followed by the inevitable arguments about who gets 'allowed' to live in them). Nation-states were a mistake and the last thing we should be doing is moving back towards them. Of course, a lot of more recent Irish displeasure towards the British has to to with that great big border that got stuck there. Trin Tragula posted:Lord Ashcroft has released his assessment of what went wrong for Labour at the election. quote:While many Labour members grasp the need to change in principle, it is clear that they would find some of the shifts voters say they want to see – such as a less liberal stance on immigration, or much stricter fiscal discipline – harder to stomach in practice.
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Feb 11, 2020 16:46
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Tesseraction posted:There's a lot of interesting information in this but it's always a bit whiffy when a Tory peer goes "this is why Labour need to change." quote:This report is not a road map to recovery: different people can draw sharply different conclusions from the same data, and I’m sure that will be the case with this research. I mean, if there's someone else out there doing large-scale research and trying to find out what's happened, by all means, let's hear what they have to say...
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Feb 11, 2020 16:48
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jackhunter64 posted:Wales has a train that goes
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Feb 11, 2020 16:49
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Surprise as tory thinks labour should be more like the tories.
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Feb 11, 2020 16:49
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Trin Tragula posted:I mean, if there's someone else out there doing large-scale research and trying to find out what's happened, by all means, let's hear what they have to say... Absolutely, I'd just take the raw data and not any of his personal interpretations. I don't believe he's misrepresenting the data.
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Feb 11, 2020 16:50
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Imagine if Starmer not only believed in nothing but was a terrible party leader as well. At least Blair could win elections.
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Feb 11, 2020 16:56
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Feb 11, 2020 17:02
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Chuka Umana posted:Imagine if Starmer not only believed in nothing but was a terrible party leader as well. At least Blair could win elections. Centrism cannot fail, it can only be failed. E: ^ lol
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Feb 11, 2020 17:02
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Miftan posted:So Cam-Rah? It rhymes with bumrush but without the shhh And the reason English posters get so defensive about this poo poo is that the idea that there are people in this country who look exactly like them but are still treated worse on both an individual level and can expect inferior quality of life on a demographic level, is incredibly uncomfortable. There's a logic to descrimination against BAME people because they look different, or sexism because people are born with a vagina rather than a penis. But this is a case of some powerful English man (or group of English men) deciding that one side of this ~imaginary line~ should be treated worse and there's no logic to that. It's loving arbitrary and thats why they cam't accept it. Speaking of arbitrary lines, I just found out my great uncle Ron (who was in his 90s, was in the merchant navy and taught me piano) died on the 29th December. He was leaving his house when he slipped and fell. The ambulance took 3 and half loving hours to arrive and now he's loving dead. That's why this border isn't, as you fuckers love to say, some ~imaginary line~. If he was English, he might be alive. And even if not, he probably wouldn't have spent some of his last hours in agony, on the side of the road. So if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go think about some of the good times. Maybe grieve a little. You can now return to your regularly scheduled dick-waving contest where you all try to prove how English you are by arguing over whether its baps buns or sarnies (its butties). e: gently caress it, just watch this video. Saith fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Feb 11, 2020 |
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Feb 11, 2020 17:04
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Trin Tragula posted:Lord Ashcroft has released his assessment of what went wrong for Labour at the election. As always, it's so frustrating to see people just not joining the dots of what are, apparently, their own views. quote:“They were saying, ‘it’s the adults talking now, leave the table and we’ll sort it out for you’,” as one former supporter put it. Another linked Labour’s apparent attitude on Brexit to Gordon Brown’s encounter with Gillian Duffy in 2010: “He tarred her with the bigot brush rather than listening to what she had to say. It’s the same with Brexit.” So apparently Labour's position of "we'll let you have a further say now we all have a much better idea of what it entails" actually means that The People are being overspoken by the Out-of-Touch-Elites because the truely democratic thing to do is do the fullest, hardest Brexit ever on the basis of a small majority wanting 'A Brexit Of Some Sort'. Bonus points for "Gordon Brown was wrong to call the woman a bigot just because she said bigotted things and then became UKIP candidate." This sort of thing is wierd as well: quote:with people who have moved away from the party (often feeling that the party had moved away from them). There is a (seemingly sizeable) group of people out there who think that Labour's purpose is to be an avatar for their views and opinions, regardless of whether those map onto the supposed values and ideas of the party. So when the supposed socialist party becomes more socialist, loads of people think they've been abandoned by the Labour Party because they themselves don't like socialism. I might be looking at this through a too-narrow lens, because my (complicated inter-familial designation coming up...) girlfriend's mum's partner (so that's a sort-of-step-father-in-law?) so perfectly fits the media's platonic ideal of a older-middle-aged-white-working-class-man-from-the-regions-who-says-he's-Labour-but-hates-Corbyn that I am truely amazed he hasn't been vox-popped by the BBC. This is a man who insists that he's "Labour through and through, always voted for them all my life" but when you have a long talk you realise that a) his actual views are pure Thatcherite Conservatism other than an ill-defined distate for "fat cats" and "big business" which doesn't actually inform any of his specific attitudes and b) his voting record is actually "didn't vote in a lot of GEs, voted Tory in 1987, voted Labour for all three of Blair's elections, didn't vote 2010-2017 (other than to vote Leave in the referendum) and voted Conservative in 2019". But he's adamant that he's a 'Labour bloke from a Labour family', and it's because he sees himself as a salt-of-the-earth, backbone-of-Britain, common-sense, work-hard-and-keep-out-of-trouble, support-Our-Boys-and-wave-the-flag person. He sees it that that's the demographic the Labour Party should be representing, regardless of what the actual politics of that demographic is. He's 'Labour' and he wants to get rid of the immigrants, minimise his tax bill, bring back capital punishment and stop pandering to 'the gender types' so that's what the Party should do. It's bonkers, all the more so that he doesn't see any dissonance or contradiction in this. I'm absolutely not saying that this is an accurate or widespread vignette of what people in the (former) Red Wall think, but there must be elements of that in play as places (and the people in thim), for whatever reason, vote Conservative for the first time in a century.
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Feb 11, 2020 17:05
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NotJustANumber99 posted:He hasn't turned up to much what with his mum in law dying. I feel that there should have been a pause to the proceedings when one of the leading candidates suffers a loss like this. Both from a mental health point of view for him and from a scrutiny point of view for the rest of us. It's not ideal for the process if the leader misses half the hustings, even if it's totally understandable.
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Feb 11, 2020 17:05
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Saith posted:It rhymes with bumrush but without the shhh I am sorry about your loss, Saith.
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Feb 11, 2020 17:10
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Saith posted:Speaking of arbitrary lines, I just found out my great uncle Ron (who was in his 90s, was in the merchant navy and taught me piano) died on the 29th December. He was leaving his house when he slipped and fell. The ambulance took 3 and half loving hours to arrive and now he's loving dead. I'm very sorry to hear this but the last time I called an ambulance in England for someone who had fallen over and broken their ankle the ambulance took 4 hours. The frustration is that people think you're seeing very real and legitimate problems but that you are then misplacing blame and coming up with a solution that will not solve them. But anyway, condolences.
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Feb 11, 2020 17:11
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Saith posted:I just found out my great uncle Ron (who was in his 90s, was in the merchant navy and taught me piano) died on the 29th December. Condolences mate.
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Feb 11, 2020 17:12
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Saith posted:And the reason English posters get so defensive about this poo poo is that the idea that there are people in this country who look exactly like them but are still treated worse on both an individual level and can expect inferior quality of life on a demographic level, is incredibly uncomfortable. You realise queer people exist, yes?
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Feb 11, 2020 17:12
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Saith posted:If he was English, he might be alive. And even if not, he probably wouldn't have spent some of his last hours in agony, on the side of the road. Yes he would. Evidence: I spent four hours waiting for an ambulance lying by the side of a road in torrential rain last winter, and my sister loving died because an ambulance didn't get to her in time. So gently caress off with that shite.
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Feb 11, 2020 17:16
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The Welsh absolutely were historically oppressed by the English nobility. The oppression of the Welsh today takes 3 forms:
Thing is though, if you're gonna base a claim to oppression on the last one, that technically makes me an even more oppressed minority since I have literally never been able to watch a Wales game (football or rugby) in a pub without some oval office literally trying to start a physical fight with me. But no, your nationalism is different, I'm sure. & lol that you think "Welsh" is a slur when I've met more than a few English-speaking Welsh folk who literally think that Saes is a slur because that's how people use it. Arguing that "Welsh" is a slur because of its etymological roots is just the converse of the "'paki' is just short for Pakistani" argument. Not claiming to be oppressed btw, I'm English, that's ridiculous. It's just that being lovely to people based on nationality is called "being a oval office" & is different to systemic oppression, and Welsh people can be cunts too. Also, would be interested to hear how "Yorkshire &c should have independence too" applies to Londoners, most of whom are (economically) oppressed as gently caress. e: I'm also sorry for your loss, I didn't see that before I posted. Condolences. Borrovan fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Feb 11, 2020 |
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Feb 11, 2020 17:17
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WhatEvil fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Feb 11, 2020 |
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Feb 11, 2020 17:18
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Condolences to everyone in this thread that has lost people recently.  This describes an awful lot of people I have run into who have moved away from Labour.
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Feb 11, 2020 17:18
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My mother also spent four hours lying on the floor in agony with a hosed leg waiting for the ambulance. That isn't a national thing.
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Feb 11, 2020 17:19
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[extremely Bharat accent] the English owe many countries for their crimes
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Feb 11, 2020 17:22
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Sorry for being such a dickhead earlier, woke up to the news that a good friend of mine took his own life, absolutely devastated and feeling a bit broken and frankly lost, not trying to excuse how much of an rear end in a top hat I've been
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Feb 11, 2020 17:23
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RE: ambulance waiting times, I found this interesting map showing median response times to life-threatening injuries. The data's from a few years ago but you apparently really don't want to be living in the east of England: Sorry to everyone who's lost someone recently My grandpa and mother-in-law passed away just before Christmas and it really sucks.
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Feb 11, 2020 17:25
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Saith posted:I just found out my great uncle Ron (who was in his 90s, was in the merchant navy and taught me piano) died on the 29th December. Condolences to you and yours.
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Feb 11, 2020 17:25
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Ash Crimson posted:Sorry for being such a dickhead earlier, woke up to the news that a good friend of mine took his own life, absolutely devastated and feeling a bit broken and frankly lost, not trying to excuse how much of an rear end in a top hat I've been Be with your loved ones.
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Feb 11, 2020 17:27
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floofyscorp posted:RE: ambulance waiting times, I found this interesting map showing median response times to life-threatening injuries. The data's from a few years ago but you apparently really don't want to be living in the east of England: The sea looks like a pretty safe place to be. Would not have guessed.
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Feb 11, 2020 17:29
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Ash Crimson posted:Sorry for being such a dickhead earlier, woke up to the news that a good friend of mine took his own life, absolutely devastated and feeling a bit broken and frankly lost, not trying to excuse how much of an rear end in a top hat I've been Ah shite, sorry to hear that.
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Feb 11, 2020 17:29
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NotJustANumber99 posted:He hasn't turned up to much what with his mum in law dying. I'm talking about the whole course of his campaign. Go through his Twitter feed, and there's a lot of activity but little policy or principle.
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Feb 11, 2020 17:31
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Darth Walrus posted:Go through his Twitter feed, Look there may have been some harsh things said in here today but this is just unnecessary meanness.
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Feb 11, 2020 17:33
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floofyscorp posted:RE: ambulance waiting times, I found this interesting map showing median response times to life-threatening injuries. The data's from a few years ago but you apparently really don't want to be living in the east of England: It tells you the time period when you hover over, my area in NI is from 2011-2014. So its obviously worse now.
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Feb 11, 2020 17:35
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floofyscorp posted:Sorry to everyone who's lost someone recently Sorry floofster I lost my gran just before Christmas too She had been in hospital for a while and we had grown close, then she suddenly died of something completely unrelated. She was absolutely atrocious at chess though Ratjaculation fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Feb 11, 2020 |
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Feb 11, 2020 17:38
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ThomasPaine posted:This is a fair point Congrats on your partner being a tory I guess. Can't we all just agree that England is a motherfucker.?
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Feb 11, 2020 17:46
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There actually is a uniquely Welsh argument to be made about underfunding of the NHS in Wales: The Tories like to point out that healthcare in Wales is devolved, gets more funding per head, but still performs worse than NHS England. Because the Welsh Labour Government piss it away on free parking & prescriptions, they argue. In fact, there's less funding per age adjusted head, because Wales has an older population.* In a larger country - like England - the NHS can take regional demographic differences into account when distributing funding. On top of that, the Welsh population is more dispersed and a lot smaller, making it much harder to get specialists where they're needed, which isn't represented in the funding stats but is nonetheless a recognised reason why NHS Wales performs more poorly. These problems are specifically because of devolution, and would not be affected by greater devolution or full independence. *largely due to the economic neglect affecting most of the non-SE-England UK, but note also how poo poo it is being poor in London
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Feb 11, 2020 17:51
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So not to weigh in any further on the Nationalism/UK debate. I have Opinions on this topic which arises from being lucky enough to grow up in an Ireland that is Independent and that went from being a really crappy 80's economy to Celtic Tiger and better economy, and from consuming a lot of English media and the way in which Ireland is viewed in Britain. What I will weigh in on is what Saith said. Firstly, I'm sorry that your Uncle died. That absolutely sucks. It also sucks that he died as a result of failure from medical care. My daughter died in June. It was awful. She also died from what my wife and I felt was failure of medical care. So some things I have learnt about grief. 1) It's horrible. It's a pain that is always there. And some days it gets better. And then other days something will set you off and you'll feel wrecked. It can't be predicted, it just happens. 2) You can feel depressed. Like a lot of the time. And occasionally you will find yourself getting angry instead. And being angry is intoxicating, because there is a feeling of power you get from being angry (to use a strained analogy, depression can feel like being on downers, while anger can feel like being on uppers.) And while you can feel powerful and righteous if you are angry about something, anger is bad for your mental well being, just like depression is. 3) We form narratives in our head. This one is strange. Basically humans and their minds have a lot of difficulty coping with tragedy. Often because tragedy arises out of something that was random. And that messes up our heads. And we find it is easier to ascribe their being a reason behind the tragedy. Even if that reason is dumb and non-nonsensical, we will accept above the idea that it was just pure chance. I still remember when I was in the Ultrasound room and we were told that there was no longer a heartbeat. I fell to the floor and just howled. And in between my tears I insisted that the reason this happened was because I hadn't read the Parenting book I was given as a gift at Christmas. Now this is clearly untrue and not the reason why my little girl died. But at the time, my mind accepted that because it made more sense than "poo poo happens." And I think you may be dealing with a bit of that. It is easier to think that Wales being an Independent nation would have prevented this as opposed to the idea that this was an accident that sadly probably could not have been prevented. However this is where your situation gets a bit more complicated 4) Tragedy is made worse when there is negligence involved. Dealing with a loss is bad enough when there is objectively nobody to blame. But where you can say that you feel let down by the care services (and without going into the details of my situation, my wife and I did feel let down) you have somebody that you think is responsible. And the degree to which that is the case and how you'll always say to yourself "What if this thing happened differently. Would my loved one still be alive?" is something that makes the grief process a lot harder. To summarize. I'm sorry for your loss. Try not to let the anger consume you over this. Maybe if your Uncle was in a different part of the country or care services hadn't been so cut to the bone, a different result would have happened. Sadly you won't know and as difficult as it is, you need to move away from the temptation to imagine what could have happened and focus on your reality. But campaign for a full understanding of why it happened if you feel the need for this, and to see if a change can be made to make sure this won't happen again.
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Feb 11, 2020 17:53
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keep punching joe posted:Congrats on your partner being a tory I guess. My partner is a communist
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Feb 11, 2020 18:10
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jesus christ people what the gently caress
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Feb 11, 2020 18:13
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Condolences to everyone who needs them.
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Feb 11, 2020 18:39
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Every poll of people who vote tory only gives more weight to my opinion that you should slap the absolute gently caress out of anyone who ever admits to voting tory. Just beat the piss out of them.
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Feb 11, 2020 18:43
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