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Serephina posted:While I'm not disagreeing at all, who the hell is still playing BoF1 in this day and age? I loved it as a kid, but it's hardly Citizen Kane. It was the only RPG on the SNES games for switch collection until Breath of Fire 2 launched
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Feb 10, 2020 13:08
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Unpopular opinion: Level grinding is enjoyable. A few hours of mindless grinding and combat is sometimes more enjoyable than progressing through the game, especially when it will give you a particular edge.
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Feb 10, 2020 13:28
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Rutibex posted:BoF 2 is a poorly balanced mess of a game. you basically can not progress at certain areas without massive amounts of level grinding. Even with the gameboy advance double xp it takes some grinding. Also, the sound track isnt very good. I guess the battle music is? It's the weakest part of the game for sure.
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Feb 10, 2020 13:45
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Phobos Anomaly posted:Unpopular opinion: Level grinding is enjoyable. A few hours of mindless grinding and combat is sometimes more enjoyable than progressing through the game, especially when it will give you a particular edge. grinding can be a pleasant zen activity, provided that your gains are sufficient. enough with the 25mn tnl because Slime "shouldn't be above lv30," persona games
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Feb 10, 2020 13:53
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Level grinding can be great as long as I can watch a movie or listen to music
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Feb 10, 2020 14:51
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Phobos Anomaly posted:Unpopular opinion: Level grinding is enjoyable. A few hours of mindless grinding and combat is sometimes more enjoyable than progressing through the game, especially when it will give you a particular edge. There's definitely something to the insane parabolic power curves of old RPGs where you can backtrack with new abilities and equipment and completely destroy old areas that were once deadly. The new style of for every new ability you get there's a new enemy type everywhere to challenge it kinda sucks if that's all you ever play
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Feb 10, 2020 15:59
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Imagine beeing the guy who said "hey, let's level the whole world in sync with the player. So he doesn't have to play the game in a linear fashion, and always faces a challenge". Or better, imagine beeing the other then guys in the room who thought "why level then though?". Oblivion, what have you done to us!
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Feb 10, 2020 17:21
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Level scaling is so lame
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Feb 10, 2020 17:36
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tuo posted:Imagine beeing the guy who said "hey, let's level the whole world in sync with the player. So he doesn't have to play the game in a linear fashion, and always faces a challenge". Gothic 3 is a better game than Oblivion. 
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Feb 10, 2020 17:39
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Outpost22 posted:poo poo I just read an article from Forbes that said the console wars are over and mobile gaming won, when did that happen?
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Feb 10, 2020 17:54
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precision posted:Level scaling is so lame I don't get who it actually appeals to.
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Feb 10, 2020 18:03
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I mean, it's cool in theory for having branching paths you can tackle in any order, or for playing in a group with friends, but when everything levels to match your level it kind of.... makes the whole point of leveling up and getting stronger moot. Because you don't actually get stronger.
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Feb 10, 2020 18:08
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ikanreed posted:I don't get who it actually appeals to. Like anything, it's all in the execution. There are games where things scale gently to give some wiggle room on when the play enter/leaves the area, but with caps so the player can tell where they are in the grand scheme of things. And then there's Oblivion.
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Feb 10, 2020 18:10
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Serephina posted:Like anything, it's all in the execution. There are games where things scale gently to give some wiggle room on when the play enter/leaves the area, but with caps so the player can tell where they are in the grand scheme of things. And then there's Oblivion. Oblivion was especially bad because in Morrowind, I loved all the non combat stuff talking to people brewing potions creating spells. Sneaking around and stealing. If you spend the first 10 hours of Oblivion doing that, everything levels all their combat skills and murders you.
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Feb 10, 2020 18:14
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Love to go to "The Cave of Rats, Where Rats Live, No Metaphor Here It's Literally the Home of Rats" and it's full of greater demons because I'm level 40.
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Feb 10, 2020 18:26
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Been playing a lot of Monster Energy Supercross 3, it's a good game despite the awkward product placement in the title. Scratches that racing itch with the added challenge of hitting each jump perfectly and keeping the bike balanced and upright
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Feb 10, 2020 18:31
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AC Odyssey had level scaling and I kinda hated it. Level 70 and I feel exactly as powerful as I did when I started. There's so much to do though that I probably would've been massively overleveled by the end game, so I'm not sure what the better solution would be. Older AC games always had way too easy combat and "press X to win" insta kills.
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Feb 10, 2020 18:32
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ikanreed posted:Oblivion was especially bad because Morrowind
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Feb 10, 2020 18:41
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FF8's level scaling was hilarious because the game essentially punished you for grinding levels by making enemy stats scale at higher rates than player characters. Fighting the optional last superboss is significantly easier with a level 50 party than with a level 100 party.
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Feb 10, 2020 18:59
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Hobo Clown posted:AC Odyssey had level scaling and I kinda hated it. Level 70 and I feel exactly as powerful as I did when I started. There's so much to do though that I probably would've been massively overleveled by the end game, so I'm not sure what the better solution would be. Older AC games always had way too easy combat and "press X to win" insta kills. I was just about to mention Odyssey because it's a game where level scaling is almost totally pointless. You're guided through the world in a totally linear way by virtue of zones having fixed starting levels and it's literally impossible to fight enemies more than like 5 levels higher than you, so the only thing level scaling does in it is make sure you never, ever fight enemies that are more than 2 levels LOWER than you, leading to hilarious situations with level 50 chickens and common bandits who carry Legendary weapons It's still a fun game but god drat the scaling is dumb in it.
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Feb 10, 2020 18:59
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tuo posted:Imagine beeing the guy who said "hey, let's level the whole world in sync with the player. So he doesn't have to play the game in a linear fashion, and always faces a challenge". In theory number 1 is ideal and is what good games already do, but the reason it doesn't work with RPGs is the gameplay sucks in most RPGs. Another reason why leveling is almost always a stupid mechanic in video games.
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Feb 10, 2020 19:05
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I liked what Guild Wars 2 did, where it would just level you down if you were in a low level area. You would still have an edge, it would keep you above the level of the monsters, but you weren’t just an invincible god rolling face and taking no damage. Made it real easy to party up with a friend who was a low level and play with them without it being stupid brain dead easy.
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Feb 10, 2020 19:20
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veni veni veni posted:In theory number 1 is ideal and is what good games already do, but the reason it doesn't work with RPGs is the gameplay sucks in most RPGs. The problem with number 1 is that the buzz from numbers going up is that your dudes are getting stronger. If there is no weaker baseline you lose that feeling of growth over time because everything is stagnant even if the numbers change. Or in short: There's a lot of fun in going back bigger and stronger and drop kicking something that gave you trouble earlier in the game.
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Feb 10, 2020 19:20
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Serephina posted:While I'm not disagreeing at all, who the hell is still playing BoF1 in this day and age? I loved it as a kid, but it's hardly Citizen Kane. i did like 6 months ago, because i was terribly bored. then i went to play BoF2 and was disgusted by how unbalanced it was
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Feb 10, 2020 19:25
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Ugly In The Morning posted:I liked what Guild Wars 2 did, where it would just level you down if you were in a low level area. You would still have an edge, it would keep you above the level of the monsters, but you weren’t just an invincible god rolling face and taking no damage. Made it real easy to party up with a friend who was a low level and play with them without it being stupid brain dead easy. my favorite thing in everquest on sullon zek was rolling through newbie zones and just wrecking them. What I'm saying is your theory is bad and doesn't let me grief people so I don't like it
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Feb 10, 2020 19:31
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On the subject of level scaling, I don't mind because it allows me to powerlevel for extra abilities rather than stats, so I can get that one ability I really like or unlock my full rotation earlier.
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Feb 10, 2020 21:39
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The Soulsborne games got the leveling absolutely right. A skilled player can beat the whole game at the lowest level, and on the other side even if you grind level after level, the game - while getting more easy - still poses a challenge. And all of that without level scaling, but still with a non-linear gameplay. I agree there are games that pulled off level scaling better than others. But it still always reminds me of Oblivion, thus I hate it.
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Feb 11, 2020 08:05
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tuo posted:The Soulsborne games got the leveling absolutely right. A skilled player can beat the whole game at the lowest level, and on the other side even if you grind level after level, the game - while getting more easy - still poses a challenge. And all of that without level scaling, but still with a non-linear gameplay. Yeah totally. One of the only series where leveling actually works as intended vs just being some pointless poo poo meant to set off endorphins in your brain by watching numbers get bigger, or stretch out a small amount of content into something that seems bigger than it is. Sometimes I still think even souls would be better without leveling in favor of making builds based solely off of gear though.
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Feb 11, 2020 08:20
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I think every game should definitely work, scaling-wise, with you being able to beat the game without grinding anything or killing anything but plot-necessary enemies. Starting Dark Souls and beating dark souls with the exact same gear makes me like the game. But being able to beat it without ever wearing a single piece of armor makes me love it.
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Feb 11, 2020 08:26
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veni veni veni posted:Yeah totally. One of the only series where leveling actually works as intended vs just being some pointless poo poo meant to set off endorphins in your brain by watching numbers get bigger, or stretch out a small amount of content into something that seems bigger than it is. They kinda did that with Sekiro (minus gear). The only thing you can grind are new moves or better stealth skills (or, IIRC, how effective the healing gourd is) which make the game a bit easier or allow you to cheese bosses (double ichimonji etc.), but stuff like health increase or attack strength increase is tied to progression. So the more you explore and beat optional areas, the easier later challenges become, but you can never "cheat" the system as you could in previous Soulsborne games (finding a grinding spot to add some levels etc.), and the later parts are still really tough. From is good at game design, imo.
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Feb 11, 2020 08:49
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Ugly In The Morning posted:I liked what Guild Wars 2 did, where it would just level you down if you were in a low level area. You would still have an edge, it would keep you above the level of the monsters, but you weren’t just an invincible god rolling face and taking no damage. Made it real easy to party up with a friend who was a low level and play with them without it being stupid brain dead easy. The two best were level-scaling and mounts. Kept the early-game content from becoming irrelevant.
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Feb 11, 2020 09:34
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City of Heroes was pretty basic MMO in some ways but all the flavour made enemies a lot more fun. You'd outgrow enemy groups at some point, or they'd obviously change up their enemies at higher levels, sometimes where boss and lieutenant enemy types become the lieutenants and minions, or new types of enemies like when not-COBRA introduces new divisions of faceless super-soldiers and goddamn werewolves and vampires. The Circle of Thorns shows up from early on to endgame content with regularly changing rosters of mages and demons, and somehow manages to be an incredible pain in the rear end to fight the entire time.
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Feb 11, 2020 10:20
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Wow does it fine, when you level past an area you should be able to go back and poo poo all over it but there also should be no reason to do so The issue is lazy developers who want to have every cave be worth entering into the endgame and it's just stupid. Spiders and skeletons in Fart Cave should be the first bit of the game not the endgame as well.
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Feb 11, 2020 10:56
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Phobos Anomaly posted:On the subject of level scaling, I don't mind because it allows me to powerlevel for extra abilities rather than stats, so I can get that one ability I really like or unlock my full rotation earlier. This is why Final Fantasy 5 was the best rpg ever, yeah, grinding for AP sucked and took forever, but holy poo poo was it fun unlocking all the jobs and getting all the cool skills.
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Feb 11, 2020 14:51
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:This is why Final Fantasy 5 was the best rpg ever, yeah, grinding for AP sucked and took forever, but holy poo poo was it fun unlocking all the jobs and getting all the cool skills. And also you can beat it without grinding (or veering from the plot path, at least) if you’re smart. E: thinking about it, all you need is a WHM with summon casting shell/curaga/golem, maybe carbuncle and the rest samurais, maybe with white magic for keeping shell up. That’ll keep ExDeath’s hardest hits below the OHKO threshold, and the samurai’s zeninage can reliably murder everything jokes fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Feb 11, 2020 |
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Feb 11, 2020 15:59
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abigserve posted:Wow does it fine, when you level past an area you should be able to go back and poo poo all over it but there also should be no reason to do so Wow does level scaling now.
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Feb 11, 2020 21:43
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Too bad it never figured out quality scaling. Well it did, but in reverse.
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Feb 11, 2020 23:35
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Earthbound did leveling best- if you're over leveled them you don't even have to worry about battling, you just knock out the enemy on the overworld screen and get some EXP for it.
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Feb 12, 2020 20:40
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That's genius!
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Feb 13, 2020 10:55
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See also Paper Mario, though that required a badge iirc. While Disco Elysium's devs realised midway through development that random combat encounters didn't actually add anything to the game.
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Feb 13, 2020 11:20
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