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kustomkarkommando posted:Howlins resigned - very prompt exit. If the leadership comes down to these two the party is actually going to be dead next election. Howlin did nothing but both Kelly and O'Riordain are insufferable egotists.
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Feb 12, 2020 17:21
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Skull Servant posted:Howlin did nothing
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Feb 12, 2020 17:41
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lemonadesweetheart posted:How is the speaker decided actually? Election using Instant Runoff. It's the first order of business when the Dail meets after an election, candidates need to get seven nominations to get on the ballot and each TD can only nominate a single candidate.
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Feb 12, 2020 17:43
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Arquinsiel posted:He was the minister in charge of Irish Water. That he hung on at all is mind boggling. I meant as leader while they were in opposition, but I agree completely. The only way Labour can come back is by bringing someone in without the stink of austerity and the coalition.
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Feb 12, 2020 18:29
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Listening to this report on FG blocking bills with a minority gov (including environmental bills, legalisation of medical marijuana and banning imports on goods from Israeli occupied Palestine) and I really have to wonder how that general election would have gone if this information was available last week?
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Feb 12, 2020 18:58
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Skull Servant posted:I meant as leader while they were in opposition, but I agree completely. The only way Labour can come back is by bringing someone in without the stink of austerity and the coalition.
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Feb 12, 2020 19:46
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Arquinsiel posted:That he was made leader after that portfolio told a lot of people that Labour learned absolutely nothing from their trashing. I mean the only reason they made him Leader was because he was a vague boring void at the end of his political career and lacked any mercenary ambition. Labours rulebook only lets TDs be Leader and the only ones really secure in their seats where Howlin and Kelly - pretty much everyone else was in jeopardy and had served in some capacity in the coalition (apart from Penrose who resigned the whip and only just got reelected and peaced out at this election). With Nash and O Riordain, who where rising before the election as possible leadership names, losing their seats that just left Sean Sherlock as the only one beside Kelly talked about as a future leader and he was up to his ears in the coalition and seen as too inexperienced at the time. Howlin made sense as a holding pattern until the got someone else better elected in the Dail
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Feb 12, 2020 20:10
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Howlin's a good guy, but dull - and completely associated with the austerity years. He was never more than a placeholder. Labour desperately need someone young, energetic and media friendly to help revitalize the brand. Someone like Stephen Donnelly of his IND/SocDem years basically, but a bit more lefty/working class. But where they're going to get someone like that is another question... If they keep the rule that it has to be a sitting TD Ged Nash is probably the best of the bunch, but mightn't be regarded as secure enough in his seat. Other than that its probably O'Riordan, who is good but a bit dull, and a bit too focused on champagne socialist/identity politics. Hes the favourite with the bookies currently. Alan Kelly is the only other person realistically in the running I think, but hes only ever come across as an egotistical insane person to me. I'd love to hear thats wrong mind you.
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Feb 12, 2020 20:19
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Blut posted:Alan Kelly is the only other person realistically in the running I think, but hes only ever come across as an egotistical insane person to me. I'd love to hear thats wrong mind you. I shared a house with him for a few months in college and he was a oval office.
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Feb 12, 2020 20:25
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cormac posted:I shared a house with him for a few months in college and he was a oval office. I KNEW IT!
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Feb 12, 2020 20:32
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Shoehead posted:Listening to this report on FG blocking bills with a minority gov (including environmental bills, legalisation of medical marijuana and banning imports on goods from Israeli occupied Palestine) and I really have to wonder how that general election would have gone if this information was available last week? Where can one find this report?
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Feb 12, 2020 20:57
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Just look up "money message", there's been a lot of complaining about it steadily for the last few years and attempts to change the standing orders and even a court case brewing - basically no private members bill that create new public expenditure can be enacted, even after achieving a majority in the Dail, without a signed message from the Taoiseach agreeing to allow the release of funds. FG has read this extremely literally to block pretty much any legislation coming from the opposition benches as doing anything invovled spending even a small amount of money, like for example the Occupied Territories Bill requires limited expenditure to establish the mechanisms to monitor the new offences so that's new expenditure outside the budget so uh money message needed, were not giving it to you so bill gets stuck in limbo forever
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Feb 12, 2020 21:09
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kustomkarkommando posted:Just look up "money message", there's been a lot of complaining about it steadily for the last few years and attempts to change the standing orders and even a court case brewing - basically no private members bill that create new public expenditure can be enacted, even after achieving a majority in the Dail, without a signed message from the Taoiseach agreeing to allow the release of funds. Ah yes I had heard about the “money message” stuff. It’s completely horse poo poo and when it gets to the Supreme Court they will say “you can’t interrupt this stuff in a literal way, because that would give the Taoiseach way too much power in a way not intended by the Constitution. And it would be a breach of the Separation of Powers.”
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Feb 12, 2020 22:19
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Blut posted:Howlin's a good guy, but dull - and completely associated with the austerity years. He was never more than a placeholder. I could see Gary Gannon jumping ship to labour and taking the reins later in his career. Amalgamate them and the SDs, they are treading the same water. Shiny new young fella and, uh, the party of James Connolly. Nothing depresses me quite like the irish labour party.
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Feb 13, 2020 03:07
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kustomkarkommando posted:Also personally I have beef with how they formulate their immigration policy which seems to talk out of both sides of their mouth and treads a very cautious line (considering we've had lads burning down centres for asylum seekers I'd prefer something a good bit more 'gently caress off racist scum')
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Feb 13, 2020 04:12
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cargo cult posted:this seems not great even though SF are described as left-wing. IDK how important an issue immigration is in Ireland compared to the rest of Europe though Not massively - generally when it comes to voting SF don't actually vote badly on the issue and have supported new asylum housing centres and the abolishment of the horrific direct provision system, I just personally find the need to cough and add "but we don't love open borders! need to make sure we're not flooded with foreigners who don't integrate" when this is not an issue seems like pretty mercenary positioning (not exactly surprising for SF who's policies are usually crafted slowly and deliberately will glancing at opinion polls)
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Feb 13, 2020 09:56
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Southpaugh posted:I could see Gary Gannon jumping ship to labour and taking the reins later in his career. Amalgamate them and the SDs, they are treading the same water. Shiny new young fella and, uh, the party of James Connolly. What got me is the narrative in the media and from old Labour voters I know who have taken the swing to SF as being "they are just going to this party because they are offering free things. While Labour are being sensible with what they are offering." And are just wilfully ignoring how bad Labour have been since 2011. I love this tweet by Leo. https://twitter.com/LeoVaradkar/status/1227628020921438208?s=19 Sadly it cuts off the last part. "...and did such a poo poo job that they were not a real opposition. "
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Feb 13, 2020 10:02
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https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1227973541921992704?s=19 Sounds like FF are flat out refusing to even talk with SF about a deal but are remaining open to talk with other parties. Grand coalition back on the cards? FG don't particularly seem in the mood at the minute though
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Feb 13, 2020 18:03
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All the signs, to me, are still suggesting SF will pointedly be given the next few weeks to try (and fail) to attempt to put together a coalition of the left. Then, because of the impending Brexit negotiations in late March, FG will reach a deal with FF for the "national interest" to "step up" and provide S&C to an FF+Green+SocDem/INDs minority government for 12/24 months to see Brexit out. That saves everyone from another immediate election, keeps SF out, and keeps FF&FG from having to coalition together. But keeps the reins of power still very safely in FF hands, with significant FG budgetary influence/input. FF&FG are both very keenly aware than any full coalition government with the two of them would result in them both hemorrhaging votes, as any theoretical divisions between the parties break down even further. S&C is a way to ensure both parties get input, and no particularly scary policies are enacted by a government, but one party can still play at being the party of opposition.
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Feb 13, 2020 18:37
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Will another confidence and supply really work. Everyone already recognizes it as a coalition in all but name. And it wasn’t risky last time due to SF smaller numbers, now they’d have a real chance of bringing down the government with a vote of no confidence.
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Feb 13, 2020 20:11
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Tbh I do not see another few years of Supply and confidence working for FF/FG, if anything its just going to be perceived as a repeat of the last few years. That will then land squarely on FF and FG unless they make some rear end pulls to keep everyone happy (which I doubt if FG keep their fiscal Conservatism going). Roll out another election and go for broke is only real way FF would succeed here.
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Feb 13, 2020 23:26
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probably internal polling has been done and FF thinks it would completely crater if they coalitioned with SF, so this is where they are now. SF has positioned themselves pretty well IMO - if they can cobble together some weirdo rainbow government they get to rule, and if not they are an opposition that can credibly claim to have been locked out by the mean ole establishment. mind, their situation was better than the others' to begin with, but they've also handled themselves well so far
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Feb 14, 2020 01:51
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SF wouldn't be the kinds of people to overplay their hand, not at this point. I could see them sitting out completely.
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Feb 14, 2020 03:40
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lol O Cuiv is loving pissed at FF leaning into FG https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1228299499103281152?s=19 If FF negotiates a deal with FG and the greens and the membership rejects it at their ardfheis that may be one of the more hilarious options
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Feb 14, 2020 13:54
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Feb 14, 2020 14:00
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FF have plenty of lefty/nationalist ideology floating around in the parties past, by no means a left party historically but they can't claim to be ideologically opposed to SF.
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Feb 14, 2020 14:00
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Are any of the elected greens worth a shite? I see that awesome lady (Saoirse) from Achill didn't get in and it made me a little sad because I wanted to see what her take would be on an FF/FG/Green government.
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Feb 14, 2020 14:19
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https://twitter.com/CiaranCuffe/status/1228432149923102722?s=19
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Feb 15, 2020 15:17
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I assume he means "Kumbaya", but i don't wanna kinkshame the Greens
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Feb 15, 2020 15:30
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The lighting and decor indicate they are about to don masks and disrobe for an eyes wide shut style party.
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Feb 15, 2020 18:49
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https://twitter.com/fiachkelly/status/1229436291995049990?s=19 FG sound displeased Also RED C did some polling on preferred coalitions by party support  Ah Labour
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Feb 17, 2020 18:16
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kustomkarkommando posted:https://twitter.com/fiachkelly/status/1229436291995049990?s=19 I still reckon it'll be an FG s&c to FF/Green/SocDem/INDs, the above tweet and a few other rumblings do seem to be pointing that way. I put a tenner on it at 34/1 with paddypower last week, its down to 26/1 now. Definitely worth a punt at those long odds. The RedC poll is horrifying from my perspective as a Labour supporter. 38% of Labour voters are apparently centre-right in their views... I mean, better they're voting LAB than FF or FG at least I guess, but still, gently caress.
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Feb 17, 2020 19:45
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Labour are blairites. They are centre right.
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Feb 17, 2020 20:43
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Southpaugh posted:Labour are blairites. They are centre right. I mean some of them but there are still plenty of old labour right "party of the working man" people bitter that they ever let those champagne swilling big city middle class Democratic Left softies into the party
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Feb 17, 2020 21:23
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Were Labour ever socialists or even social democrats at all, or were they always useless centrists?
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Feb 17, 2020 22:53
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Venomous posted:Were Labour ever socialists or even social democrats at all, or were they always useless centrists? They expelled the Trots at the end of the 80s and they've been loving awful ever since AFAIK
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Feb 17, 2020 23:00
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It's not like Sinn Fein didn't expel the trots in the 80s.
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Feb 17, 2020 23:12
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Venomous posted:Were Labour ever socialists or even social democrats at all, or were they always useless centrists? They flirted with open socialism in the early 30s until the Spanish Civil War thing happened and the Catholic church suddenly got a lot more openly aggressive about communism and again in the late 60s (a brief slogan being the 70s will be Socialist) but by and large the party followed the line of being the political extension of the trade union movement a lot stronger than say in Britain, partially because independent socialist groups where only integrated into the party later and because of the somewhat tense relationships between the Labour party and more radical groups. Basically in the early labour days you had three individuals as pillars of the movement - Connolly as the radical idealist, Jim Larkin as the firebrand inciter and William X O'Brien as the arch organiser. With Connolly's death and Larkin going off to America, O'Brien pretty much rebuilt the trade union movement and valued the union and the organisation as being all important to further the interests of the working class - he had little interest in revolutionary activity or widespread unrest and when Larkin returned to Ireland clashed heavily with him (also worth noting that even generous biographies of Larkin admit he was a bit of a dick with an egotistical streak a mile wide who demanded all socialist groups in Ireland acknowledged him as their rightful leader because the Comintern said so). What's often cited as an important turning point is the Civil War period when Labour opted for democratic opposition to the government while widespread agrarian discontent and wildcat labour strikes where pronounced across the country, Labour ultimately saw a stable state as being more in the interest of advancing the interests of the working class than choosing to advance a third front in the growing conflict - ultimately a lot of this agrarian unrest would be harnessed by De Valera and FF in their early years when they positioned themselves as the "real party of labour" with a "broad class unity in the national interest" platform that accepted land reform. Communists and radicals as wreckers who jeopardised the trade union movement by drawing the ire of the church where persistently sidelined, being consistently supportive of the Labour movement as a whole often meant socialism took a very distinctive backseat kustomkarkommando fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Feb 17, 2020 |
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Feb 17, 2020 23:20
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Southpaugh posted:Labour are blairites. They are centre right. Most of the Labour activists I know are from the Workers Party > Democratic Left > Labour absorption family tree, very far from the centre-right. Hell even in the election just gone Labour had a significantly more left-wing policy platform than Sinn Fein. One of those two parties wanted to abolish the local property tax, and reduce income taxes on people earning €90k per year...and it wasn't Labour.
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Feb 18, 2020 12:38
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Blut posted:Most of the Labour activists I know are from the Workers Party > Democratic Left > Labour absorption family tree, very far from the centre-right. Labour's track record doesn't hold up and you'd be foolish to take any of what you just said at face value given that history.
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Feb 18, 2020 13:00
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