Kevin DuBrow posted:

This account was written by Imad al-Din al-Isfahani, a friend and chancellor of Saladin, as part of his History of the Fall of Jerusalem. It describes the arrival of “Frankish” (term used by Muslims that really meant Christian European) women in Jerusalem during the Crusades. It is quite an exciting read. His hate-boner is impressive.


I love reading the defamatory, hate-filled rants written by medieval Muslims about Christians, and vice-versa. It’s just over the top.

Ibrahim ibn Yaqub al-Tartushi posted:

“Slesvig (Hedeby) is a very large town at the extreme end of the world ocean…. The inhabitants worship Sirius, except for a minority of Christians who have a church of their own there…. He who slaughters a sacrificial animal puts up poles at the door to his courtyard and impales the animal on them, be it a piece of cattle, a ram, billy goat or a pig so that his neighbors will be aware that he is making a sacrifice in honor of his god. The town is poor in goods and riches. People eat mainly fish which exist in abundance. Babies are thrown into the sea for reasons of economy. The right to divorce belongs to the women…. Artificial eye make-up is another peculiarity; when they wear it their beauty never disappears, indeed it is enhanced in both men and women. Further: Never did I hear singing fouler than that of these people, it is a rumbling emanating from their throats, similar to that of a dog but even more bestial.”

System Metternich posted:

Guys, I just found the most wonderful thing! Evliya Çelebi (1611–after 1683) was an Ottoman author who penned the Seyahatnâme ('Book of Travels'), a ten-volume magnum opus in which he recounts his travels throughout the Ottoman Empire and its neighbouring countries. It's a really interesting text (which sadly hasn't been translated yet in its entirety into English or German) and also hilarious, because Çelebi was either the most gullible person alive or just full of poo poo - his chapter on Vienna tells of robot elephants, wizard surgeons and 1,000 monks slumming it in the tower of St Stephen's, for example He also added a short chapter on the German language to his book, which I'll post here courtesy of Robert Dankoff & Sooyong Kim's An Ottoman Traveler. Selections from the Book of Travels of Evliya Çelebi, pp. 238-240.

quote:

Chapter: the ancient language of German

Some call it Nemçe, others Ungur, because it spans the provinces of Hungary (Ungurus), Germany (Alaman) and (—). It is an ancient Christian country that boasts its state goes back 2,600 years. Indeed, it is a powerful state that claims parity with the Ottomans and the kings of Muscovy. It is under the supervision of the Seven Kings. When one king dies, the others meet together with the emperor of this German Kaiser [!] and with his permission choose another king to take his place. First the king of Dunkerque, and the kings of Denmark, Holland, Czechia, Poland, (—) and (—) are all subject to the German Kaiser. In war time, each king comes to the Kaiser’s aid with 100,000 troops.

Yet the king of Sweden - which is on the shore of the Baltic Sea opposite the New World - has been able to terrify and harass the German Kaiser despite his 700,000 troops; because the Swedish king possesses 1,200,000 troops of Tatar nomads, plus other infidels whose number God only knows. There has been continual warfare between Germany and Sweden for the past 127 years. Only recently, in fact, the Swedes took seven fortresses from the Germans, who report that each one was worth the seven climes.

‘Indeed,’ they say, ‘we have concluded this peace with the Turks only because we have to deal with the Swedes. Otherwise, do you think we would make peace with the Turks after the Battle on the Raab (when we defeated them so soundly)?’

The Swedes pass as Christians and read the Gospel, but their language is different - I will record it in its place, God willing. They are, however, fire-worshippers (i.e., heretics) of the Protestant sect, while the Germans are true Christians and followers of the Gospel of the Catholic sect - i.e., the sect of the pope. The German language, however, is not the Spanish language of the pope. It is a very heavy language, which also has many Persian expressions; because the Germans too came from Persia with the descendents of Manuchahr.

As I mentioned above, because David played the organ and recited the Psalter, the scriptures that were revealed to the prophet David have been translated into German, and they sing psalms with the organ accompaniment. Here is one such verse from the Psalter in German: Fin sonderbares andaştiges gebet cuder alarheyligsten unt siligten yugunt firav Marya hilf avef den kapuçinar berkopa {meaning, fortress} soson. It is a hymn to Jesus and to Mother Mary. Indeed, it is recited in a loud voice by the monks as they pass through the streets and go from church to church with their cross-adorned banners and flags and with their organs. But when they sing this hymn in marvellous fashion, in the rehavi musical mode, it stuns the listener.

Another verse from the Psalter, a prayer to Jesus, as translated into German: Daler furtireflihste golorvirdiyaste alarheyligste ale çeyt unbeflekste yugunt firav Marya an matre unserris herres Yezu kirisiti in renigin der velt unt hersir in alarkiraaturen melke duniyemant verlest niyemant verehst avih niyemant ver cu dir mit raynin irt nirgend unt busfertigen Kot {that is God} Marya Firav {Mother Mary}. When the monks and boys with their sweet and mournful voices sing these precious words of the Psalter to the accompaniment of the organ, one feels intoxicated with love. For one’s heart expands when these verses are sung in the sofiyane meter according to the science of music.

As for the German language ... First, when the Germans reckon in buying and selling they count as follows: ans 1 isçpa 2 tiray 3 fir 4 finf 5 sekes 6 siben 7 ahet 8 nayin 9 çen 10 çiyançet 20 tiraysik 30 firçik 40 fufçik 50 siyihçik 60.

burot bread bosir water vayin wine lihit candle lihter candlestick meser knife feder pen fin tirdid penbox and pen tinte ink papir paper kot God marya Mother Mary kositin opol sultan of Istanbul çasar king inpirator king of kings lipolda inpirator engur Hungarian king of the Germans pampol cotton kam her Come here segnide Sit down niksi There isn’t uskut It is good na mayin hurbu No my lord may firav my wife yug firav my daughter furta flee! mayn foder my father mayn puluda my brother geher kilani Come little one geher may herec Come my dear por pisli Stay a while kolt common gold dukat gold piece taler royal piaster qiraliçqa two pennies engörleş penny.

System Metternich posted:

quote:

They brought before me a knight in whose leg an abscess had grown; and a woman afflicted with imbecility. To the knight I applied a small poultice until the abscess opened and became well; and the woman I put on diet and made her humour wet. Then a Frankish physician came to them and said, 'This man knows nothing about treating them.' He then said to the knight 'Which wouldst you prefer, living with one leg or dying with two?' The latter replied, 'Living with one leg.' The physician said, 'Bring me a strong knight and a sharp axe.' A knight came with the axe. And I was standing by. Then the physician laid the leg of the patient on a block of wood and bade the knight strike his leg with the axe and chop it off at one blow. Accordingly he struck it--while I was looking on--one blow, but the leg was not severed. He dealt another blow, upon which the marrow of the leg flowed out and the patient died on the spot. He then examined the woman and said, 'This is a woman in whose head there is a devil which has possessed her. Shave off her hair.' Accordingly they shaved it off and the woman began once more to eat their ordinary diet--garlic and mustard. Her imbecility took a turn for the worse. The physician then said, 'The devil has penetrated through her head.' He therefore took a razor, made a deep cruciform incision on it, peeled off the skin at the middle of the incision until the bone of the skull was exposed and rubbed it with salt. The woman also expired instantly. Thereupon I asked them whether my services were needed any longer, and when they replied in the negative I returned home, having learned of their medicine what I knew not before."

quote:

The Franks are void of all zeal and jealousy. One of them may be walking along with his wife. He meets another man who takes the wife by the hand and steps aside to converse with her while the husband is standing on one side waiting for his wife to conclude the conversation. If she lingers too long for him, he leaves her alone with the conversant and goes away.

Here is an illustration which I myself witnessed:
When I used to visit Nablus, I always took lodging with a man named Mu'izz, whose home was a lodginghouse for the Moslems. The house had windows which opened to the road, and there stood opposite to it on the other side of the road a house belonging to a Frank who sold wine for the merchants. He would take some wine in a bottle and go around announcing it by shouting, "So and so, the merchant, has just opened a cask full of this wine. He who wants to buy some of it will find it in such and such a place." The Frank's pay for the announcement made would be the wine in that bottle. One day this Frank went home and found a man with his wife in the same bed. He asked him, "What could have made you enter into my wife's room?" The man replied, "I was tired, so I went in to rest." "But how," asked he, "did you get into my bed?" The other replied, well, I found a bed that was spread, so I slept in it." "But," said he, "my wife was sleeping together with you!" The other replied, "Well, the bed is hers. How could I therefore have prevented her from using her own bed?" "By the truth of my religion," said the husband, "if you should do it again, you and I would have a quarrel." Such was for the Frank the entire expression of his disapproval and the limit of his jealousy. . . .

Kevin DuBrow posted:

What makes the translations so funny? Are they just comically inaccurate?

Kevin DuBrow posted:

What makes the translations so funny? Are they just comically inaccurate?

Fader Movitz posted:

Being a travel writer back in the day must have been a cool job. you tell everyone back home you're going to some far away place, then go half way there, hang around some court or tavern for a 6 months. Write down some stuff, make some stuff up. I'm sure those Swedes are essentially orcs and no ones gonna know better anyway. Go back home, be celebratet as a daring traveler and scientist.

Fader Movitz posted:

Being a travel writer back in the day must have been a cool job. you tell everyone back home you're going to some far away place, then go half way there, hang around some court or tavern for a 6 months. Write down some stuff, make some stuff up. I'm sure those Swedes are essentially orcs and no ones gonna know better anyway. Go back home, be celebratet as a daring traveler and scientist.

Gan Ying posted:

The Kingdom of Da Qin [the Roman Empire] is also called Lijian. As it is found to the west of the sea, it is also called the Kingdom of Haixi ("West of the Sea"). The territory extends for several thousands of li. It has more than four hundred walled towns. There are several tens of smaller dependent kingdoms. The walls of the towns are made of stone. They have established postal relays at intervals, which are all plastered and whitewashed. There are pines and cypresses, as well as trees and plants of all kinds.

Gan Ying posted:

Their kings are not permanent. They select and appoint the most worthy man. If there are unexpected calamities in the kingdom, such as frequent extraordinary winds or rains, he is unceremoniously rejected and replaced. The one who has been dismissed quietly accepts his demotion, and is not angry. The people of this country are all tall and honest. They resemble the people of the Middle Kingdom and that is why this kingdom is called Da Qin. This country produces plenty of gold [and] silver, [and of] rare and precious they have luminous jade, "bright moon pearls", Haiji rhinoceroses, coral, yellow amber, opaque glass, whitish chalcedony [i.e., langgan], red cinnabar, green gemstones, gold-thread embroideries, woven gold-threaded net, delicate polychrome silks painted with gold, and asbestos cloth.

Gan Ying posted:

They also have a fine cloth which some people say is made from the down of "water sheep", but which is made, in fact, from the cocoons of wild silkworms. They blend all sorts of fragrances, and by boiling the juice, make a compound perfume. [They have] all the precious and rare things that come from the various foreign kingdoms. They make gold and silver coins. Ten silver coins are worth one gold coin. They trade with Anxi and Tianzhu by sea. The profit margin is ten to one. ... The king of this country always wanted to send envoys to the Han, but Anxi, wishing to control the trade in multi-coloured Chinese silks, blocked the route to prevent [the Romans] getting through [to China].

John of Wallingford posted:

” The Danes …caused much trouble to the natives of the land; for they were wont, after the fashion of their country, to comb their hair every day, to bathe every Saturday, to change their garments often, and set off their persons by many frivolous devices. In this matter they laid siege to the virtue of the married woman, and persuaded the daughters even of the noble to be their concubines”.

Straight White Shark posted:

My favorite is the Chinese embassy to Rome that made it all the way to the eastern border of the empire and then gave up because they were told that the Mediterranean was too long and treacherous (during the golden age of the Roman Empire no less.) So they just turned around and went home with gossip and hearsay they picked up from around Syria. Which is still pretty impressive, mind you.




Also, yes, they literally called Rome "Great China" or "Great China of the west" because they had no terms to describe an empire of that magnitude except the ones they used to describe their own.

Alhazred posted:

This one remains the best:

Krankenstyle posted:

dont doxx me

Alhazred posted:

Combing your hair nowadays is not as unique as you think it is.

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

That last Gan Ning quote seems weird- surely he'd know at least as much as romans about silk clothes and silk worms?

Straight White Shark posted:

My favorite is the Chinese embassy to Rome that made it all the way to the eastern border of the empire and then gave up because they were told that the Mediterranean was too long and treacherous (during the golden age of the Roman Empire no less.) So they just turned around and went home with gossip and hearsay they picked up from around Syria. Which is still pretty impressive, mind you.




Also, yes, they literally called Rome "Great China" or "Great China of the west" because they had no terms to describe an empire of that magnitude except the ones they used to describe their own.

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

also, fun fact I just remembered: Adolf Hitler insisted to his death that his friends and lovers call him "Herr Wolf". Mighty anime button down energy there, mein führer.

Krankenstyle posted:

maybe gan ying didnt know where silk comes from. i mean the worms were a literal trade secret worth warring over so he could just be really curious nerd. like ask a 1800s person where their denim came from.

Jerry Cotton posted:

Nim, obviously.

Ravenfood posted:

Booooooo

Alhazred posted:

This one remains the best:

quote:

The author evidently used several excellent authorities, such as Bede, the Saxon priest's Life of Dunstan, Florence of Worcester, and the like; but, though he makes some attempts at comparison and criticism, has inserted so many exaggerations and misconceptions apparently current in his own time, and has further so strangely confused the results of his reading, that his production is historically worthless.

ishikabibble posted:

I've always wondered about that quote. Since, there was a whole discussion earlier in this thread about how Medieval people really fuckin loved bathing. Why would someone reference that as a reason that foreigners can come in and sweep up their women when those standards seem to be pretty similar to what people there already did?

Then again, checking on Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Wallingford_(d._1258)


So maybe it's just that quote is by a goony shut-in

Milo and POTUS posted:

That water sheep might be Sea silk which is possibly even more impressive than silk

Ornamental Dingbat posted:

Racist people say that people from X country all smell bad these days too.

Helith posted:

When I was growing up in 1980s England it was very common for white people to complain that Indian, Pakistani and Bangladeshi people “smelt of curry” as an an insult.
Jokes on them, curry is delicious and spices smell amazing.

quote:

While he was planning the system Bazalgette used the densest population in the capital, gave everyone the most generous allowance of sewage production and then came up with the diameter of pipe needed.

He then said, "We're only going to do this once and there's always the unforeseen" and doubled the diameter of the pipes he wanted built.

This foresight allowed for the increase in London's population that came years later with the introduction of the tower block. If Bazalgette had used the smaller pipe diameter, the city's sewers would have overflowed in the 1960s. Instead, they've coped into the 21st century.

Kevin DuBrow posted:

Very edgy opinion. Other than cultural factors like diet and hygiene products used, it would be impossible for me to sniff out people of different races. Priming can be a powerful thing, and olfactory hallucination is extremely easy to fall victim to.

Helith posted:

When I was growing up in 1980s England it was very common for white people to complain that Indian, Pakistani and Bangladeshi people “smelt of curry” as an an insult.

Jerry Cotton posted:

IDK kind of can't take that as derogatory because I drink like two litres of milk a day