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CottonWolf posted:Feeding by consent is pretty stupid when your entire society is based around hiding your existence from humanity (for extremely good reasons). Yep The only ethical predator type is Farmer
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Feb 14, 2020 14:58
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Archonex posted:Which makes it hilarious that it works. Literally the first person that gets revealed as her feeding from is like "Yeah okay if it'll help.". Turns out that most people aren't sociopathic dickheads! I like her as much as the next LA by night viewer, but shes still a monster despite her best efforts. Consenualists are leeches like every other Kindred they just happen to ask permission of the people they're exploiting A truly ethical vampire is either Farmer or sun themselves the first day
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Feb 14, 2020 15:01
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Oberst posted:I like her as much as the next LA by night viewer, but shes still a monster despite her best efforts. Consenualists are leeches like every other Kindred they just happen to ask permission of the people they're exploiting How about a vampire who in life was big into PETA and the ASPCA who refuses to drink from animals but is completely fine with human "cattle" raised in captivity for slaughter? Because "farmer vampire" can go in some pretty hosed-up horrifying directions. And because I want to take a few more whacks at an equine corpse, I do kind of see a "need" for Beast. Every other game line pretty well covers the classic monster/horror types: vampires, werewolves, ghosts, golems/frankenstein/constructs, faeries, demons and finally mummies. Even Deviant deals with the "person twisted by science/weirdness into a monstrosity like the Invisible man, the Fly, etc." And Hunter not only deals with the people who hunt monsters, it brings in the idea of the modern slasher types as well (though generally not as PCs). The only thing lacking (beyond full-on extraterrestrials) is the dragon/eldritch monstrosity/mythic monsters that cover everything from sea serpents to poo poo from Lovecraft. So, yeah, there is kind of a hole there in terms of a monster type, and especially a PC monster type. However, the actual game with Hunger and the horrifying poo poo that must be done to satiate it just sucks every last bit of fun and goodwill out of it for me. Maybe it's not quite Pedophile: The Molesting, but Jesus does it tread a lot of the same path. Everyone fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Feb 14, 2020 |
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Feb 14, 2020 15:06
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Also, the ethics goes in both directions. Consentialist is arguably more ethical for the people you're feeding from, but has a considerable risk of getting huge numbers of other vampires killed.
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Feb 14, 2020 15:08
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do the capitalism thing and just own a motel full of people you bury in material comforts, who willingly let you take from them in exchange for giving up all obligations and responsibilities.
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Feb 14, 2020 15:11
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Everyone posted:How about a vampire who in life was big into PETA and the ASPCA who refuses to drink from animals but is completely fine with human "cattle" raised in captivity for slaughter? Nah thought experiment doesnt work, Farmer is explicitly only animals. You get a prey exclusion for Humans that gives you a stain upon feeding from hoonans
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Feb 14, 2020 15:20
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CottonWolf posted:Also, the ethics goes in both directions. Consentialist is arguably more ethical for the people you're feeding from, but has a considerable risk of getting huge numbers of other vampires killed. Nah, they're monsters who fool themselves. Humans eat animals just like Farmer. Eating from other people with consent is just being a monster with extra steps
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Feb 14, 2020 15:21
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Oberst posted:Nah thought experiment doesnt work, Farmer is explicitly only animals. You get a prey exclusion for Humans that gives you a stain upon feeding from hoonans Depends on your definition. Maybe there's some specific, in-game character type called "Farmer" that acts like that, but there's absolutely no reason that a vampire couldn't set up some kind of hosed-up human farm/ranch/plantation and do exactly what I just described. Hell, figure that back in the "good old days" plenty of vampires did exactly that. The plot of Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter posited vampires supporting the South so that they could keep using slaves as food.
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Feb 14, 2020 15:38
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Yeah none of that is relevant to discussion of Annabelle's feedkng habits and predator types in LA by night. Youd quickly enter into wassail from racking up stains in V5 doing that poo poo This is why i used capital F Predator Type Farmer hth
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Feb 14, 2020 15:59
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CottonWolf posted:Also, the ethics goes in both directions. Consentialist is arguably more ethical for the people you're feeding from, but has a considerable risk of getting huge numbers of other vampires killed. Possibly getting a huge number of other vampires killed is supposed to be an ethical downside? Digital Osmosis fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Feb 14, 2020 |
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Feb 14, 2020 16:06
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Everyone posted:Depends on your definition. Maybe there's some specific, in-game character type called "Farmer" that acts like that, but there's absolutely no reason that a vampire couldn't set up some kind of hosed-up human farm/ranch/plantation and do exactly what I just described. Hell, figure that back in the "good old days" plenty of vampires did exactly that. The plot of Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter posited vampires supporting the South so that they could keep using slaves as food. Slaves are just one big herd. It has nothing to do with predator type
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Feb 14, 2020 16:37
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Digital Osmosis posted:Possibly getting a huge number of other vampires killed is supposed to be an ethical downside? Probably if you're a vampire? I mean, as a human, if vampires existed, getting a load of them vampires killed would definitely be a plus, but presumably your moral obligations change when you actually become a vampire, unless you, as a vampire, come at it from the perspecitive that your existence is inherently evil.
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Feb 14, 2020 19:20
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Vampires are also one of the few player-character supernaturals that could be eradicated from the world and create a net positive from their absence.
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Feb 14, 2020 19:51
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Digital Osmosis posted:Possibly getting a huge number of other vampires killed is supposed to be an ethical downside? lmao gently caress them, got mine
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Feb 14, 2020 20:17
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Oberst posted:Nah, they're monsters who fool themselves. Humans eat animals just like Farmer. Eating from other people with consent is just being a monster with extra steps Humans also donate their labour-power to each other all the time.
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Feb 14, 2020 20:27
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Oberst posted:Nah, they're monsters who fool themselves. Humans eat animals just like Farmer. Eating from other people with consent is just being a monster with extra steps Almost as if....Humanity were a core aspect of the characters 
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Feb 14, 2020 21:13
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So, what is new in the Scion 2E launch schedule? Last I checked the preview versions of Origins and Hero were out, did they release anything else?
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Feb 14, 2020 21:14
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Digital Osmosis posted:Possibly getting a huge number of other vampires killed is supposed to be an ethical downside? Part of why I like Requiem's take on the Masquerade (as in the practice of vampires hiding among the herd) better in the first place. Somebody on the Onyx Path forums had a good description for how they differ. The Masquerade in VTM is solid but brittle. It is very hard to penetrate, very hard for a mortal to learn much of anything about the supernatural without the consent or participation of a supernatural being, and thus supernatural beings are strongly protected from discovery. But a breach is treated as a serious danger that can spread and break down the Masquerade if not dealt with and silenced, and so supernatural beings monitor, mobilize, and descend. The collective Masquerade in VTR is porous but flexible. It is relatively easy to penetrate, and it is not uncommon for mortals to breach the collective Masquerade and learn of the supernatural. But a breach does not threaten to destroy the Masquerade, in part because a vampire's Masquerade is in fact a personal and singular thing before it is a collective labor. Vampires do not worry if a given mortal learns of the supernatural or even of vampires in particular. Vampires only worry if a mortal gets close to learning that they, specifically, are vampires. Mortals in the Chronicles of Darkness fear the dark and aren't eager to confront it when it can be avoided. As long as nobody can identify the harm a specific vampire is doing and pick up pitchforks and torches, that vampire does not care whether they know that some unseen force walks among them and manipulates them. What are they going to do about it? If they can't identify a target, the vampire is safe anyway. Consensual feeding is more viable in VTR because other vampires who find out you're keeping blood dolls don't get antsy about icing them as long as they don't have unusually loose lips. They still might hurt or kill them to get to you? But that's not a reason to avoid consensual feeding as much as it is a reason to avoid having friends or acquaintances, and that's a pretty tall ask. I Am Just a Box fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Feb 14, 2020 |
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Feb 14, 2020 21:24
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Everyone posted:
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Feb 14, 2020 21:26
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Warthur posted:I disagree that there is any need for such entities to be playable PCs, or for that matter that a game where you played such would be a good fit for the wider line. You're talking about creatures which are most effectively depicted more as impersonal forces of nature, not people who need to juggle their supernatural poo poo with making sure they pay the gas bill. Well, truth be told, I guess there really isn't a need for anyone to play any kind of supernatural. Running Chronicles of Darkness as a straight-up Mortal horror game with basically normal people trying to deal with all this bizarre, inhuman horror is completely viable. That said, in a game line with ways to play vampires, werewolves and even demons, I can see how there would be some story space opening around, say, Sherry Lobrowski, third grade teacher in a not-so-great, crime-ridden neighborhood, who tries to teach her students, deal with school administration and function as part of society even though one huge aspect of her is that of Shelob, the dark spider-demon from the Lord of the Rings, who takes pleasure in luring various criminals and gang-bangers in to be consumed in her web.
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Feb 14, 2020 22:19
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Everyone posted:Well, truth be told, I guess there really isn't a need for anyone to play any kind of supernatural. Running Chronicles of Darkness as a straight-up Mortal horror game with basically normal people trying to deal with all this bizarre, inhuman horror is completely viable. That said, in a game line with ways to play vampires, werewolves and even demons, I can see how there would be some story space opening around, say, Sherry Lobrowski, third grade teacher in a not-so-great, crime-ridden neighborhood, who tries to teach her students, deal with school administration and function as part of society even though one huge aspect of her is that of Shelob, the dark spider-demon from the Lord of the Rings, who takes pleasure in luring various criminals and gang-bangers in to be consumed in her web. There's not really any substantial difference in this concept if you just run Sherry as a demon except for aesthetics. As a matter of fact, Sherry is better served as a demon because Demon actually handles and addresses your life as a third grade teacher in addition to your life as your friendly neighborhood Spider-Woman, and you can turn into a big spider without having to set up the right mood lighting for it.
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Feb 14, 2020 23:04
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I think people don't think of Demon like that because Demon is deeply embedded (har!) in its specific thing, and if you haven't unlocked (har!) that particular set of analogies and resonances in your own heart, it's difficult to really get your head around. Like Demon is definitely the nWoD game that makes me think I just didn't watch the same movie as people, while I "get" the gist of most of the other concepts OK just fine. I say this despite playing in a Demon game. Like it never resonated to be some kind of paranoid spy person except also a devil except God is bad (?) and controlling. Perhaps it roots in some unstated experience I don't share.
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Feb 14, 2020 23:14
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Slimnoid posted:Vampires are also one of the few player-character supernaturals that could be eradicated from the world and create a net positive from their absence.
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Feb 14, 2020 23:22
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Nessus posted:Like Demon is definitely the nWoD game that makes me think I just didn't watch the same movie as people, while I "get" the gist of most of the other concepts OK just fine. I like this idea for understanding or not understanding a splat. Do you have any ideas what those other movies are, or are you just going off a vague impression? (I'm really just looking for movie recommendations, here. Minimally familiar with nWoD Demon, but I like movies.)
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Feb 14, 2020 23:32
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Demon: NFS: Tokoyo Drift, JoJo Rabbit, Okja, Overlord
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Feb 14, 2020 23:38
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I Am Just a Box posted:There's not really any substantial difference in this concept if you just run Sherry as a demon except for aesthetics. As a matter of fact, Sherry is better served as a demon because Demon actually handles and addresses your life as a third grade teacher in addition to your life as your friendly neighborhood Spider-Woman, and you can turn into a big spider without having to set up the right mood lighting for it. You could also do it in Changeling. Being a well-intentioned supernatural weirdo who doesn't quite fit in alongside one's fellow man is a big deal in that gameline too.
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Feb 14, 2020 23:42
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Vavrek posted:I like this idea for understanding or not understanding a splat. Do you have any ideas what those other movies are, or are you just going off a vague impression?
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Feb 15, 2020 00:15
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Vavrek posted:I like this idea for understanding or not understanding a splat. Do you have any ideas what those other movies are, or are you just going off a vague impression? Now, you understand Demon.
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Feb 15, 2020 00:18
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Vavrek posted:I like this idea for understanding or not understanding a splat. Do you have any ideas what those other movies are, or are you just going off a vague impression? Vampire is pretty self-evident, even if you refer to works that aren't directly connected to the urban fantasy genre that V:tM strongly influenced. Werewolf made no sense to me until I realized it was a bunch of conlang around, essentially, a police procedural. Changeling is about runaway and abuse stories in large part (in addition to, you know, fairy tales and so forth). Mummy is about RETURNING THE SLAB. Mage is Alan Moore/Grant Morrison comics; John Constantine would be archetypical for a Awakening mage in my perspective, and frankly, possibly Swamp Thing too. Geist I haven't sat down and gotten to grips with but would seem to connect to a lot of modern-era ghost stories, particularly ones like Beetlejuice or the Tim Burton corpus, where death and the afterworld can suck but also contains energy and the potential for good/fun things to happen. Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:To fully grasp Demon: the Descent, you must watch Dark City. Next, watch The Bourne Identity, and think, "what if he was also reshaping reality around him while beating the poo poo out of that dude with a rolled-up magazine?" Finally, watch 1992's Sneakers, keeping in the back of your mind the idea that if things went wrong for any of the characters (including-and-especially Dan Akroyd or the blind David Strathairn), they would first do Jason Bourne poo poo, then finally Dark City poo poo. And then they would be fighting Dark City antagonists as a result.
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Feb 15, 2020 01:07
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Nessus posted:Geist I haven't sat down and gotten to grips with but would seem to connect to a lot of modern-era ghost stories, particularly ones like Beetlejuice or the Tim Burton corpus, where death and the afterworld can suck but also contains energy and the potential for good/fun things to happen. Also because it gives you something to do (espionage) instead of like. Just punching angels all day and wondering why everyone on the planet isn't immediately a Machine Lutheran or whatever.
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Feb 15, 2020 01:11
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Demons are like this because of the God Machine. If God is an unknowably complex genius-idiot machine, its servants are impossible mechanical beings.
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Feb 15, 2020 01:28
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Zereth posted:I think about the only thing Vamps as a whole do that might be "good" for non-vamps in general in nWoD is "keep the Strix focused on them and not other people"? This is assuming Strix aren't a byproduct of vampires in the first place and would either not exist if vamps didn't exist, or would quickly lose purpose and fade away if all the leeches disappeared overnight. Strix seem wholly focused on vampires and little else. Without them around, what would they even do? Hoot ominously at Agent Dale Cooper?
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Feb 15, 2020 01:37
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Slimnoid posted:This is assuming Strix aren't a byproduct of vampires in the first place and would either not exist if vamps didn't exist, or would quickly lose purpose and fade away if all the leeches disappeared overnight. Possess humans and corpses. They already do that. They like vampires as hosts best because vampires give them the broadest array of tools, and they have some ancient ties to certain vampiric clans...but honestly, the causal connection goes the other way. The Striges were tied to making certain kinds of vampire, they existed independently before that.
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Feb 15, 2020 01:42
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Boron_the_Moron posted:You could also do it in Changeling. Being a well-intentioned supernatural weirdo who doesn't quite fit in alongside one's fellow man is a big deal in that gameline too. Absolutely true, I almost brought Changeling up in my post too. I favored Demon on account of the mechanical support for being a giant horrible spider. Warthur posted:I get lots of Changeling vibes off Twin Peaks and I suspect I'm not alone from this. Twin Peaks is my personal go-to reference for understanding the raw, elemental nature of spirits (or at least more powerful spirits) in the CofD, how they are alien in mindset, distant and hard to understand even as allies, and facets of an ancient natural world who nevertheless manifest in ways that incorporate modern symbols. BOB is the reason the Storm Lords hunt. Twin Peaks: The Return shifts this and incorporates vibes of both Changeling and Demon. The tulpa is simultaneously a Changeling fetch and a Demon Cover. The lumberjacks are angels, but being in their realm is more like a Durance in Faerie, as is being in the Fireman's house. Sarah Palmer is an angel, a demon, or a Huntsman. Nessus posted:I liked Sneakers, but why are these "Demons"? It's like Demon is In Nomine but for a religion in a different timeline. Which is intellectually very cool except I ain't ever heard of it. The answer to "why are these Demons?" is that these are the things that made the world the way it is. Whether or not the God-Machine literally created the universe, its angels are effectively the architects of the material world and the Princes of the Air, and its demons are creators who have turned against the design to which they were set. Both angels and demons have a perspective looking from the outside in. The demons just have a different opinion about what they see. I do think one weakness of Descent is that a lot of demons are implied to have had brief and recent existences as angels, maybe having memory of being put to one or two jobs in modern time. Demon should definitely have fallen angels who are ancient and were present for secret projects of import long ago. Demons would make more sense as demons this way. An angel should be a big deal, not a disposable part; the God-Machine makes other stuff for its disposable parts. There's also just no shame in not really seeing the same appeal in a game that others do. I don't really get what Aeon is all about genre-wise, but I don't think it has a broken genre, it's just in my blind spot. I Am Just a Box fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Feb 15, 2020 |
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Feb 15, 2020 01:44
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That Old Tree posted:Since the game I shall be starting soon will be either Lost or Awakening, I've been tinkering with just that! I've only been at it for a few days, it's not totally finished, and it's completely untested, but lemme know what you think. Yes! This is more like what I wanted from Talecrafting when I first heard about it! It looks good from what you have down now - I'd love to hear how it works in practice!
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Feb 15, 2020 01:49
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JohnnyCanuck posted:Yes! This is more like what I wanted from Talecrafting when I first heard about it! It looks good from what you have down now - I'd love to hear how it works in practice! Thanks! It turns out I'll be running Mage*, but I'm always tinkering so I will hopefully get around to polishing this up. * Two buddies fresh out of wizard college tooling around North America in their talking van visiting balls of twine, corn mazes and Ripley's-tier ripoff sites where real magic suddenly appears to be happening. The Obrimos Libertine had a girlfriend in Canada, but because of her future Ascension she retroactively never existed.
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Feb 15, 2020 02:02
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Nessus posted:Geist I haven't sat down and gotten to grips with but would seem to connect to a lot of modern-era ghost stories, particularly ones like Beetlejuice or the Tim Burton corpus, where death and the afterworld can suck but also contains energy and the potential for good/fun things to happen. Also quote:Mummy is about RETURNING THE SLAB.
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Feb 15, 2020 02:26
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Froghammer posted:Geist is 50% a CBS primetime supernatural procedural and 50% trying to urge ghosts to seize the means of production by smashing the eldritch bourgeoisie. I think it would be fun to fuse this take on Geist with the Beetlejuice take by way of the movie's weird afterlife bureaucracy, where the guy in the waiting room has the shrunken head. An eerie bureaucracy that's colorful and weird and fun to interact with while still being worthy of being smashed. Just because this Betelgeuse guy isn't any better than a ghost eater for being a living eater instead doesn't mean the people running Underworld Dominion Services have your best interests at heart.
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Feb 15, 2020 03:04
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I Am Just a Box posted:The answer to "why are these Demons?" is that these are the things that made the world the way it is. Whether or not the God-Machine literally created the universe, its angels are effectively the architects of the material world and the Princes of the Air, and its demons are creators who have turned against the design to which they were set. Both angels and demons have a perspective looking from the outside in. The demons just have a different opinion about what they see. Gonna agree here, as someone who loves Demon. I feel like it really benefits from combining this sense of ancient history and majesty of "You know why there's so many myths about a wolf swallowing the sun? Me." juxtaposed against the tense, claustrophobic day-to-day life being a creature that wears human identities like a hermit crab wears shells. Then again I've always been towards the side of the fence that treats it as a more MGS/Bond sort of experience with people playing faster and looser about the specifics of cover so they can do Crazy Occult Things and Hammy Speeches.
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Feb 15, 2020 03:47
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Froghammer posted:Geist is 50% a CBS primetime supernatural procedural and 50% trying to urge ghosts to seize the means of production by smashing the eldritch bourgeoisie. Geist is also Persona/Jojo.
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Feb 15, 2020 04:16
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