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One of the reasons that the Australians were the first to ban Huawei was their intelligence services took a look at the scenario and asked themselves "If the situation were reversed, what would we be able to do with the resources we'd be giving Huawei?" Apparently what they found was https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/5g-choices-a-pivotal-moment-in-world-affairs/ posted:we could be awesome, no one would know and, if they did, we could plausibly deny our activities, safe in the knowledge that it would be too late to reverse billions of dollars’ worth of investment. And, ironically, our targets would be paying to build a platform for our own signals intelligence and offensive cyber operations.
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Feb 14, 2020 22:49
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/\ This is the correct answer, and the fact that Germany/UK/Canada are going to ignore it is criminal. Devils Affricate posted:You are American, so we added more American sauce If I was alone, and tried to explain it myself, that would be excusable. The fact that my wife explained it to the waitress and they still failed is pretty much no excuse. I'm 99%^ sure they forgot to add the additional sauce and decided that blasting it with ketchup would work as we would not break the "face rule" and point it out to them. <we did, they yelled, we walked out> Edit: UK, not US Blistex fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Feb 14, 2020 |
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Feb 14, 2020 22:49
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Blistex posted:/\ This is the correct answer, and the fact that Germany/US/Canada are going to ignore it is criminal. Canada and the US being part of Five Eyes with Australia, it begs the question why the hell we're not following their lead?
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Feb 14, 2020 23:02
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Bronze Fonz posted:Canada and the US being part of Five Eyes with Australia, it begs the question why the hell we're not following their lead? Not sure what the gently caress Canada is thinking, unless they are worried about losing property value in Vancouver, but i assume he meant to type UK instead of US there.
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Feb 14, 2020 23:03
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What's bizarre is that there is a strong consensus both among the Canadian public and in the Canadian government that Huawei should be banned. Polls have 70% of Canadians supporting a ban, the military wants it banned, CSIS wants it banned, two of the big three telecoms are proceeding with 5G without Huawei, etc. Huawei's vocal proponents aren't even trying to defend Huawei on its own merits anymore (barring appeals to Huawei's marketing material,) they've fallen back on the old "But America" arguments The only valid reason I can think of for the government to keep dragging its heels on this is that they're worried the PRC will murder its hostages if Canada officially bans it.
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Feb 14, 2020 23:09
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Shaocaholica posted:He literally puts garbage into the oven. Garbage fire pizza. Has a nice ring to it. it sounds like an ironic title some millennial would come up with for his boutique pizza restaurant, honestly I prefer the literal garbage fire Fojar38 posted:What's bizarre is that there is a strong consensus both among the Canadian public and in the Canadian government that Huawei should be banned. Polls have 70% of Canadians supporting a ban, the military wants it banned, CSIS wants it banned, two of the big three telecoms are proceeding with 5G without Huawei, etc. quote:The new charges relate to alleged decades-long efforts by Huawei and subsidiaries "to misappropriate intellectual property, including from six U.S. technology companies, in an effort to grow and operate Huawei's business," according to a statement from the Justice Department announcing the charges. welp, pack it in fellas. I don't know about you but I'm CONVINCED
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Feb 14, 2020 23:16
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Fojar38 posted:What's bizarre is that there is a strong consensus both among the Canadian public and in the Canadian government that Huawei should be banned. Polls have 70% of Canadians supporting a ban, the military wants it banned, CSIS wants it banned, two of the big three telecoms are proceeding with 5G without Huawei, etc. This flavour of Canadian government -- especially its "elder statesmen" -- have deep ties to China through business interests. Power Corporation, etc.
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Feb 14, 2020 23:26
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TheBuilder posted:Not sure what the gently caress Canada is thinking, unless they are worried about losing property value in Vancouver, but i assume he meant to type UK instead of US there. Yup, meant the UK
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Feb 14, 2020 23:27
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Play posted:welp, pack it in fellas. I don't know about you but I'm CONVINCED apparently that huawei spokesman doesn't know what it means to get hit with RICO charges because the only appropriate response is to get on your knees and beg the feds to at least give you a pillow to bite
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Feb 14, 2020 23:28
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Fojar38 posted:apparently that huawei spokesman doesn't know what it means to get hit with RICO charges because the only appropriate response is to get on your knees and beg the feds to at least give you a pillow to bite Yeah, RICO is a big deal, and if it sticks, then Huawei isn't getting in unless there is a massive change in opinion on Huawei in the next administration. Fojar38 posted:The only valid reason I can think of for the government to keep dragging its heels on this is that they're worried the PRC will murder its hostages if Canada officially bans it. Unless Meng is released or the next government is more CCP than the Liberals, those hostages are can expect to live the next decade (at best) in a Chinese cell. Honestly, the fact that they were not on the next plane to literally anywhere out of China when the news that Meng was arrested was a real WFT. The guy working for the NGO (Michael Kovrig) especially shouldn't have even been in the country given China's views on orgs like the one he was working for.
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Feb 14, 2020 23:35
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Media Bloodbath posted:It's quite delusional to think that something like this happens out of pure incompetence. BrainDance posted:You say that man, but... yeah, it does. At least on the software side. Too often I see people talk as if it has to be either malice or incompetence. I think you find them together more often than you find them singly.
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Feb 15, 2020 00:07
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Even without actual evidence I would just assume any large company created in China is under the control of the state. Really instead of proving they are, Huawei should have to prove they aren't because that's just the nature of businesses operating under authoritarian governments. Everything is controlled by the state, Huawei would not be allowed to simply say 'no' to the state. Getting caught multiple times stealing technology is just the icing on the cake and almost besides the point that Huawei is beholden to the party. If they weren't an instrument of the state then the state wouldn't allow them to exist, or at least wouldn't allow them to flourish as they have.
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Feb 15, 2020 00:38
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My Canadian friends say Huawei is innocent of everything because the US accused it of being bad, therefore it must be fine.
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Feb 15, 2020 01:19
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Grand Fromage posted:My Canadian friends say Huawei is innocent of everything because the US accused it of being bad, therefore it must be fine. Reflexive anti-Americanism is pretty Canadian and Trump really really really doesn't help with that. It's important to remember that Huawei defenders here are less pro-Huawei/China and more anti-US
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Feb 15, 2020 01:31
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Blistex posted:When I had pizza at an upscale restaurant in China my wife specified additional sauce (when we were ordering), as every pizza place puts little to none on their pizzas. When it arrived there was still just the nearly non-existent amount of tomato sauce on the crust, but they then remedied the situation by emptying 1/2 a bottle of ketchup over the top of it. I've never had bad pizza in Taiwan besides Pizza Hut/Dominos. I live next to a good pizza place so I'm spoiled though.
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Feb 15, 2020 01:32
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Fojar38 posted:Reflexive anti-Americanism is pretty Canadian and Trump really really really doesn't help with that. Oh yeah. This one in particular has no political opinions other than the US is the absolute Greatest of Great Satans and literally anything the US does is inherently the worst thing in the world.
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Feb 15, 2020 01:36
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The Chinese economy will collapse in less than a month https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/14/economy/coronavirus-china-economy-small-businesses/index.html quote:The small companies that drive China's economy are worried about how much damage the novel coronavirus outbreak will cause. Without help or a reprieve from the disease, many may have only weeks to survive.
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Feb 15, 2020 01:39
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Grand Fromage posted:Oh yeah. This one in particular has no political opinions other than the US is the absolute Greatest of Great Satans and literally anything the US does is inherently the worst thing in the world. I posted a comment on a news article like an hour ago and someone responded by accusing me of being American (which would be enough to nullify my opinion entirely, apparently) on the basis of I apparently used American spelling for some words instead of The King's Proper English
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Feb 15, 2020 01:47
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Grand Fromage posted:My Canadian friends say Huawei is innocent of everything because the US accused it of being bad, therefore it must be fine. Fojar38 posted:Reflexive anti-Americanism is pretty Canadian and Trump really really really doesn't help with that. The fact that the accusations come from the evil villain states does indeed put in a pretty good light that poor businesslady they're keeping in jail (5$ mil mansion house arrest)... but we really should tell Huawei to gently caress off which will never happen as Trudeau would rather see this all disappear by itself, just like seeing the canadian hostages disappear, than stand up to China in any way. Or stand up to anyone else for that matter.
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Feb 15, 2020 01:56
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Bronze Fonz posted:The fact that the accusations come from the evil villain states does indeed put in a pretty good light that poor businesslady they're keeping in jail No
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Feb 15, 2020 02:10
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I was just laying it thick on the aforementioned anti-US sentiment skewing things...
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Feb 15, 2020 02:13
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Bronze Fonz posted:I was just laying it thick on the aforementioned anti-US sentiment skewing things... Okay. Unfortunately Poe's Law applies
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Feb 15, 2020 02:14
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je1 healthcare posted:It's not even necessary to deliberately construct a backdoor to satisfy government spies. Western intelligence heavily relies on known exploits and security loopholes that inevitably appear in all software and hardware platforms, and they keep those exploits close to the chest so they don't get patched or used by other entities. This is a good point, and I suspect it's what we saw last month when Qihoo 360 patched a nasty bug in Firefox. The whole situation for that one was suspicious, they 'discover' a critical security bug, a drop everything and update bug that had effected Firefox for years, but it had been seen out in the wild long before they reported it and woops no one noticed until just then? Glad it was patched, kind of suspicious about the circumstances leading to when it was patched.
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Feb 15, 2020 02:19
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Yeah i remember the chinadaily.us article justifying sentencing that canadian meth dealer to death after he already been sentenced to something less harsh. "Yeah the timing is awful but gently caress you" was the line of argumentation in that opinion piece. Im not going to pretend if the NSA told some tech company to bend the knee they wouldn't do it. Huewei though is basically another department of the CCP. The amount subsidies the average chinese companys get from the goverment is absurd.
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Feb 15, 2020 02:36
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Despera posted:Im not going to pretend if the NSA told some tech company to bend the knee they wouldn't do it. The thing is, this is probably true, and CCP apologists love to trot it out as a false equivilence, but the fact of the matter is that for US allies, being spied on by the US isn't really all that big a deal since we're allies and cooperate with them anyway. (Most of the grumbling about it is actually due to genuine hurt feelings rather than any sort of security risk.) Certainly not worth comparison to being spied on by the PRC, who are actively hostile. Also the USA is, you know, a democracy with separation of powers, an independent judiciary, rule of law, a free press, and a thriving civil society. Countries that possess these qualities are considerably easier to deal with on fair and equal terms than countries without them and the US is no exception.
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Feb 15, 2020 02:47
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A tech company that told the NSA to gently caress off wouldnt be instantly put in an organ relocation program either
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Feb 15, 2020 03:08
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Despera posted:Im not going to pretend if the NSA told some tech company to bend the knee they wouldn't do it. Huewei though is basically another department of the CCP. The amount subsidies the average chinese companys get from the goverment is absurd. While it's true that most companies probably would most of the time, they still tell the NSA off from time to time and the NSA often can't compel them. That's why the NSA was going through all the trouble of intercepting Cisco routers in shipping to install backdoors on them years ago. Of course to many people, this is totally equivalent to Huawei building backdoors into their firmware at the request of the CCP.
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Feb 15, 2020 03:11
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Fojar38 posted:Also the USA is, you know, a democracy with separation of powers, an independent judiciary, rule of law, a free press, and a thriving civil society. Countries that possess these qualities are considerably easier to deal with on fair and equal terms than countries without them and the US is no exception. Quoting this for posterity
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Feb 15, 2020 03:17
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The junk collector posted:While it's true that most companies probably would most of the time, they still tell the NSA off from time to time and the NSA often can't compel them. That's why the NSA was going through all the trouble of intercepting Cisco routers in shipping to install backdoors on them years ago. Of course to many people, this is totally equivalent to Huawei building backdoors into their firmware at the request of the CCP. It's still really, really bad and we don't have to defend this in order to condemn what China does. I don't think any of these points (if they're true, I doubt Fojar's "being spied on by the US isn't really all that big a deal since we're allies and cooperate with them anyway" argument is really what's going on) are going to convince too many people lol. If anything this kind of thinking opens up a lot more holes in an argument than just condemning all kinds of spying.
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Feb 15, 2020 03:19
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Didn't the FBI have to get hackers to unlock a dead suspect's iPhone a few years back because Apple wouldn't give them a way in?
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Feb 15, 2020 03:20
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Zushio posted:Didn't the FBI have to get hackers to unlock a dead suspect's iPhone a few years back because Apple wouldn't give them a way in? Pretty much but I think it was more of it was quicker for them to pay the hackers vs going through the legal route of making Apple do it. They needed the information fast and Apple wasn’t going to do it as fast as they wanted. It was the guy and his wife who shot up the building and they were concerned that there were more suspects out there.
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Feb 15, 2020 03:28
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BrainDance posted:It's still really, really bad and we don't have to defend this in order to condemn what China does. I'm not defending anything here. What the NSA did was hosed up and did long term possibly irreparable damage to world relations and American manufacturing. I'm just saying that there is a difference between a government doing spycraft and a company in a totalitarian government that must be complicit in order to exist.
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Feb 15, 2020 03:38
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There is legal recourse on this side of the Pacific if ypu want to tell the government "no".
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Feb 15, 2020 03:41
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BrainDance posted:I doubt Fojar's "being spied on by the US isn't really all that big a deal since we're allies and cooperate with them anyway" argument is really what's going on My point is that not all countries behave the same. Tankies and totalitarian apologists like to pretend that they do, which is the entire point of the "but America" arguments, yet no Canadians/Europeans/Australians genuinely consider the United States a security threat, certainly not to the degree that it would be a risk to use American technical infrastructure, despite the fact that the USA has demonstrated the ability to literally blow up nuclear centrifuges using cyberwarfare. At a certain point it begins to come off as "Why are you Taiwanese worried about Chinese bombs? Don't you know that the USA also has bombs that they could theoretically drop on you?" or "Why are you South Koreans worried about the North Korean army when the US army is better positioned to attack you from the bases you're hosting?" Like global affairs are some kind of zero sum Sid Meier game. For a mountain of political, strategic, and ideological reasons, US allies are fine with the USA having capabilities that they wouldn't want others to have. This is like really obvious and fundamental to any discussion about international relations and so muddying the waters in that regard is critical for Russia/China apologists. Usually, however, it doesn't work because most people live in reality.
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Feb 15, 2020 03:51
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I think I understand the point you are trying to make, but you are doing a really bad job of making it.
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Feb 15, 2020 04:03
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Cheesemaster200 posted:I think I understand the point you are trying to make, but you are doing a really bad job of making it. I really don't know how to make it any clearer without making it overly simplistic. US allies trust the US enough to pass responsibility for military deterrence off to the US nearly entirely. Having the US as a big strong muscle-daddy that can kick anyone's rear end in exchange for giving up a degree of sovereignty to the USA in the military and intelligence domains is a really really good deal. Such a good deal that the US is getting annoyed with everyone for giving too much responsibility to the Americans. The election of Trump didn't cause everyone to start panicking and making GBS threads bricks because they thought that the Americans were about to go insane and attack them. It caused everyone to start panicking and making GBS threads bricks because they thought that the Americans were going to say "gently caress it, you're on your own" "Yankee go home" very quickly became "Actually Yankee please don't go home we didn't mean it" Fojar38 fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Feb 15, 2020 |
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Feb 15, 2020 04:14
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This board was/is run by totalitarian tankies so "us good" is always going to require context
Despera fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Feb 15, 2020 |
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Feb 15, 2020 04:14
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I work for a US company that makes a piece of test equipment used in cellular installations (pretty much a monopoly on this device, so everyone uses it) and I get RMA'd units from all over the world to repair, a huge amount of the non-US ones come back in Huawei shipping boxes because that's what installers have lying around. They are absolutely setting up to pwn most of the planet e: I've also spoken to people in the industry about it from other countries and they say Huawei is practically giving certain gear away, like from their pricing to the nearest competitor is not even close d0s fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Feb 15, 2020 |
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Feb 15, 2020 04:15
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MarcusSA posted:Pretty much but I think it was more of it was quicker for them to pay the hackers vs going through the legal route of making Apple do it. Point being that Apple said no in an extremely high profile case repeatedly and that was it. As a response, new lawmaking was done and it's still not finished. But no Apple exec disappeared, no sanctions were levied and no thumbscrews or unfornutate supply shortages appeared. Do you really, really think that if the CCP wanted access to some phone, then it wouldn't immediately get it? It's simply disingenious not to see the difference here. The USA does shady poo poo all over the world. Sometimes openly, sometimes in secret. But in terms of spying, we can deal with that. There is no expectation that everyone is a good guy and plays by the rules, but at least the country is committed to a system that is stable enough to allow other groups of people and states to, you know, exist. Conversely, China is a fascist wannabe ethno-state openly genociding Muslims. Trust me, USA doesn't have many friends around here, but you better believe it is preferable in every way to China, strategically speaking. Even with Trump, and that's pretty huge even, China has the USA beat when it comes to childish bullying of smaller countries.
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Feb 15, 2020 04:22
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Yeah that's the other thing. "But America" would carry more weight if this was a discussion about the merits of America compared to, say, Sweden, but it isn't.
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Feb 15, 2020 04:23
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