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I don't think I can handle another referendum. It's become never ending.
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Feb 18, 2020 11:31
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The real delusion in this thread is thinking that a majority of england will ever totally give up their nationalism and throw their weight behind a leftist, socialist cause, the same country who gave Boris "tanktopped bumboys" Johnson the benefit of the doubt over a decent human being, the same country who when given the option to stall the car driving off the cliff, decided to press accelerate instead of stop, the same country in a toxic relationship with it's parasitical upper-class that don't even bother to keep the mask on nowadays, such is their disdain for anyone they deem working class
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Feb 18, 2020 11:35
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Ash Crimson posted:because as we all know, brexit wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for scotland Strictly it wouldn’t have if Scotland hadn’t had a million people vote for it. There were only 600,000 votes in it across the UK. its almost as if ascribing fault to whole groups of people based on geography rather than ideology is loving dumb as hell E: Ash, you’re having a normal one again, maybe take a break because posting clearly isn’t doing you any favours.
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Feb 18, 2020 11:36
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Sanitary Naptime posted:Reform the UK into a series of microstates based on local football teams.   Imperialism at work here as the Scottish Premiership is completely ignored, but I have to say that partitioning Ireland between Everton and Swansea makes slightly more sense than anything else Westminster has ever said about the isle. e: Newcastle gets Rathlin Island, lol.
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Feb 18, 2020 11:36
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So I just found out brexit broke brains. My cousin has gone from yelling "no platform for fascists" to walking up to people speaking not English and singing brexit at them. He was a good lad now he's full in BNP British jobs for British people
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Feb 18, 2020 11:36
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Ash Crimson posted:because as we all know, brexit wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for scotland Brexit would not have happened (in its current form) without the 12 Scottish Tories and the Scottish leader of the lib Dems, that's correct. the problem with counterfactuals is they didn't happen, but I can confidently state the above.
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Feb 18, 2020 11:37
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Guavanaut posted:
gently caress Everton and Liverpool, The Wirral is its own state with Tranmere thank you very much 
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Feb 18, 2020 11:48
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Ash Crimson posted:The real delusion in this thread is thinking that a majority of england will ever totally give up their nationalism and throw their weight behind a leftist, socialist cause, the same country who gave Boris "tanktopped bumboys" Johnson the benefit of the doubt over a decent human being, the same country who when given the option to stall the car driving off the cliff, decided to press accelerate instead of stop, the same country in a toxic relationship with it's parasitical upper-class that don't even bother to keep the mask on nowadays, such is their disdain for anyone they deem working class I feel like this is a conclusion I draw a lot, largely as an outsider? but the description you've given above...describes everywhere in the UK I've visited or lived. your whole rainy fash island is like this - Scotland, frankly, moreso sometimes. at the same time, the people I can most tolerate come from this bizarre place - those willing to call class what it is. it's a contradiction, to be sure. you call others cowards with one breath and in the next you call those fighting for a better world deluded and there's no spark of cognitive dissonance at all.
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Feb 18, 2020 11:51
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Guavanaut posted:
Given this would result in boro getting a much better football team I can find no fault in this arrangement. E: To be clear I don't know what team that is but it doesn't look like the current one ergo it is surely an improvement  E2: also I just noticed, why isn't oxford called middlehampton? Also wolver isn't a cardinal direction. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Feb 18, 2020 |
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Feb 18, 2020 11:53
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CoolCab posted:I feel like this is a conclusion I draw a lot, largely as an outsider? but the description you've given above...describes everywhere in the UK I've visited or lived. your whole rainy fash island is like this - Scotland, frankly, moreso sometimes. at the same time, the people I can most tolerate come from this bizarre place - those willing to call class what it is. it's a contradiction, to be sure. the issue is that one country's voice is amplified over the overs, i guess my issue isn't so much with england but with how it can effectively dictate what the rest of the uk does unfortunately i don't see that changing any time soon, if ever.
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Feb 18, 2020 12:04
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Noxville posted:Did not watch it but it sounds like they were all varying degrees of poo poo New thread title
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Feb 18, 2020 12:05
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Ash Crimson posted:the issue is that one country's voice is amplified over the overs, i guess my issue isn't so much with england but with how it can effectively dictate what the rest of the uk does Will you not have this exact situation again when Southern Scotland decides what to do on behalf of the Highlands because that's where the population centres are?
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Feb 18, 2020 12:06
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Again, restore the heptarchy then federalise it all 
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Feb 18, 2020 12:07
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Interestingly, if Boris Bungs a Bigger Bob for British Bridge Bong Bong while continuing to neglect arterial routes between the Central Belt and the English North, that opens up a fourth option which is neither British Unionism nor Scottish Nationalism nor Federalism, but is based on ease of access to capital cities.
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Feb 18, 2020 12:07
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Miftan posted:Will you not have this exact situation again when Southern Scotland decides what to do on behalf of the Highlands because that's where the population centres are? Probably, but it can't be any worse than what we've got now
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Feb 18, 2020 12:08
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Guavanaut posted:Interestingly, if Boris Bungs a Bigger Bob for British Bridge Bong Bong while continuing to neglect arterial routes between the Central Belt and the English North, that opens up a fourth option which is neither British Unionism nor Scottish Nationalism nor Federalism, but is based on ease of access to capital cities. That's a weird map that apparently doesn't have the ECML on but does have the chunnel and ferries???
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Feb 18, 2020 12:12
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Guavanaut posted:Interestingly, if Boris Bungs a Bigger Bob for British Bridge Bong Bong while continuing to neglect arterial routes between the Central Belt and the English North, that opens up a fourth option which is neither British Unionism nor Scottish Nationalism nor Federalism, but is based on ease of access to capital cities. A good map that recognises the true capital city in Scotland.
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Feb 18, 2020 12:13
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Guavanaut posted:
You’ve opened up a new sectarian divide in the south that will cause years of untold bloodshed. You get 9/10 for imperialist land carving
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Feb 18, 2020 12:13
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Forcing 2 Birmingham teams on the midlands is real hosed up of you
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Feb 18, 2020 12:17
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Ash Crimson posted:the issue is that one country's voice is amplified over the overs, i guess my issue isn't so much with england but with how it can effectively dictate what the rest of the uk does it's not just England, is the problem - again, the Scottish right both exists and is exerting an enormous influence on the entire nation, despite being the minority. and I am not just talking about those with a blue rosette - Cherry is a frontrunner for leadership for example. and this is extremely important to remember when we are analysing a hypothetical Scottish state - independence is being sold as a panacea to leftists and it demonstrably isn't that. this magical thinking - independence then everything I want - is being shared with people who do not want what you want. and they have more power than you do.
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Feb 18, 2020 12:17
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Sanitary Naptime posted:As I said earlier, the SNP is a single issue party so gently caress knows how many of their voters are just tories with different ideas about maps. It's not too hard. Just take a look at general elections prior to 1939, when the SNP either didn't exist or was barely nascent. Scotland outside of Edinburgh was in the main true blue Tory or Liberal. Labour didn't make gains in Scotland until the SNP split the Tory vote.
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Feb 18, 2020 12:19
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and it would be remiss to leave out my personal solution to the issues of British nationalism, which is to grab what I can and bugger off to Canada. I recommend it, if it's in the cards.
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Feb 18, 2020 12:20
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I'm particularly excited for the fight between east anglia and the north east over who gets fishing rights in norway.
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Feb 18, 2020 12:21
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OwlFancier posted:I'm particularly excited for the fight between east anglia and the north east over who gets fishing rights in norway. One day, my suggestion of reinstating Danelaw will become a reality.
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Feb 18, 2020 12:26
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Miftan posted:Will you not have this exact situation again when Southern Scotland decides what to do on behalf of the Highlands because that's where the population centres are? Yeah, of course. But speaking on behalf of all Teuchters I'm okay with this. The population imbalance between north and south Scotland is intense. My favourite fact is the Highland Council region is about the size of Belgium but Belgium has 11m people and the Highlands have 200k. And over a quarter of that is in one city. 8 people per km squared. Of course itd get dictated to by the whims of the central belt.
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Feb 18, 2020 12:27
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Jedit posted:It's not too hard. Just take a look at general elections prior to 1939, when the SNP either didn't exist or was barely nascent. Scotland outside of Edinburgh was in the main true blue Tory or Liberal. Labour didn't make gains in Scotland until the SNP split the Tory vote. Yes, look at the elections before Labour were properly recognised as a party of government, that's a good idea
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Feb 18, 2020 12:28
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forkboy84 posted:Yeah, of course. But speaking on behalf of all Teuchters I'm okay with this. The population imbalance between north and south Scotland is intense. My favourite fact is the Highland Council region is about the size of Belgium but Belgium has 11m people and the Highlands have 200k. And over a quarter of that is in one city. 8 people per km squared. Of course itd get dictated to by the whims of the central belt. How is that different to the current situation with the population sizes in England and Scotland then? What happens when the Highlands get pissed at their votes being ignored? Maybe I'm missing something obvious because my scot knowledge is woeful, but it seems like exactly the same situation except the labels are different?
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Feb 18, 2020 12:31
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forkboy84 posted:Yes, look at the elections before Labour were properly recognised as a party of government, that's a good idea Labour had two minority governments before 1930 and was part of the national government from 1931 onward.
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Feb 18, 2020 12:32
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Miftan posted:How is that different to the current situation with the population sizes in England and Scotland then? What happens when the Highlands get pissed at their votes being ignored? Maybe I'm missing something obvious because my scot knowledge is woeful, but it seems like exactly the same situation except the labels are different? Ding ding ding. Considering you could easily broaden this out to the fact that there’s a city down south with a bigger population than the entirety of Scotland, I don’t understand where the important difference between the two examples lie.
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Feb 18, 2020 12:34
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Miftan posted:How is that different to the current situation with the population sizes in England and Scotland then? What happens when the Highlands get pissed at their votes being ignored? Maybe I'm missing something obvious because my scot knowledge is woeful, but it seems like exactly the same situation except the labels are different? If the Highlands eventually wants independence then I have no real issue with that. The eventual death of the nation state is good far as I'm concerned
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Feb 18, 2020 12:36
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WhatEvil posted:As much as I think Bastani's a danger, Novara have been doing some good stuff around the leadership/deputy campaigns: Why's that? I've generally found him to come across pretty well
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Feb 18, 2020 12:39
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forkboy84 posted:If the Highlands eventually wants independence then I have no real issue with that. The eventual death of the nation state is good far as I'm concerned ah yes, balkanization, known reducer of nations
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Feb 18, 2020 12:40
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OwlFancier posted:Labour had two minority governments before 1930 and was part of the national government from 1931 onward. Man, British nationalism is wild, apparently driving them to claim the scab offshoot party of Ramsay MacDonald and Philip Snowden counts as Labour. Nice.
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Feb 18, 2020 12:41
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goddamnedtwisto posted:How did this end up working out (assuming you've still got somewhere dry enough to still have an internet connection)? We survived the night though I was up and down every 20 minutes checking the river didn't breach the back wall of the garden. I put a kettle and tea stuff upstairs (we have a tiny 'residents lounge') and told my tiny neighbour we'd go up there if there was a problem. All my internets are 4G so no wires to worry about  My mother's lost hers though but she has no mobile phone or 4G signals within a couple of miles radius of her home so nothing she can do about it. Just hope her phone lines don't go out too. We did get her an old-fashioned phone to plug in in case of need because she has those walking-around phones that stop functioning if there's a powercut. Actually I might give her a call now and get her to plug the old-fashioned on in as her power's been flickering on and off too.Well anyway, the river seems to have peaked for now and very slowly subsiding. But more heavy rain to come tomorrow night and the ground is so waterlogged that if it keeps up over the next few days for sure it'll breach. Ed: there's a storage container place just up the road a bit completely flooded. Feeling desperately sorry for some of the people who have posted that their entire household belongings are in a container (because they are moving home) and others who are self-employed and all their stock is in one (and before anyone knocks self-employed and think they 'deserve' it, there are gently caress all jobs round here and people have to make the best of what they can to earn any money). Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Feb 18, 2020 |
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Feb 18, 2020 12:41
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Paperhouse posted:Why's that? I've generally found him to come across pretty well AFAIK he's got some... weird ideas about what socialism would look like, specifically that it means the absolute worst excesses of consumption under capitalism, but everyone gets them. Like the rich are just sitting on absurd unfathomable post scarcity luxury for everyone rather than their way of living being the problem.
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Feb 18, 2020 12:42
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forkboy84 posted:If the Highlands eventually wants independence then I have no real issue with that. The eventual death of the nation state is good far as I'm concerned Sounds like the birth of shitloads more nation states to me.
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Feb 18, 2020 12:43
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England only has a bigger say than Scotland because there's more people there. It's a problem with democracy, the tyranny of the majority, not national borders. Scottish Tories are represented in a way that English Labour voters just aren't. Basically the whole argument hinges on the assumption that people of different nations are different & should be treated differently. Otherwise, the arbitrary line between nations is no more significant than between regions & towns, or non-geographic boundaries like party or football team support (why should Man City fans have a bigger say than Forest Green Rovers, just because there's more of them?). So what it boils down to is that if you presume nationalism, then nationalism. It's an obvious fallacy & the fact that people can't spot it suggests that it's an emotional argument, not a rational one. Which is why it's a waste of time to have this argument every loving week. What I'm saying is, put Forest Green Rovers on the map
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Feb 18, 2020 12:43
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I am and always have been infinitely more sympathetic to independence based on material conditions rather than nationalism, and as such I am much more accomodating to Scottish independence than I was in 2014. it's very concerning that the arguments haven't changed, though
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Feb 18, 2020 12:45
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forkboy84 posted:If the Highlands eventually wants independence then I have no real issue with that. The eventual death of the nation state is good far as I'm concerned I mean that's fair, you know we have very similar thoughts on anarchism in general, but then why get into halfway house solutions? Either agitate for the abolition of the nation state and local councils (determined by the people who live in them) in a federalised umbrella organisation, or for unionism. Just having an independent Scotland achieves absolutely nothing if you won't take it all the way.
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Feb 18, 2020 12:46
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forkboy84 posted:If the Highlands eventually wants independence then I have no real issue with that. The eventual death of the nation state is good far as I'm concerned If you really think that a thousand voices all demanding to be different is a good thing then don't let me stop you. Just don't pretend that it has anything to do with socialism.
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Feb 18, 2020 12:53
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