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Volte posted:Why do people keep trying to bring it back to an "entitled" or "accessibility" argument? I'm not outraged that Sekiro isn't "for me", I'm disappointed that such a fantastic set of gameplay mechanics is wrapped in a game loop that involves so much wasted time. Disrespecting my time is absolutely the number one reason I stop playing games. Games that have an overwrought death screen are infuriating. Rewind, save states or instant single button taps are ideal - just get me back in as fast as possible. Sekiro's actually kinda better than the other games for that, what with its extra life mechanic. Give me that button push, but just send me back to the last checkpoint and show me moving there at high speed instead of a loading screen! Don't give me time to think "this is bullshit"! caldrax posted:Loading screens? You realize that until the last few years this has been entirely a limitation of technology right? And if they were going to avoid this they'd be having you crawl through a thin corridor like God of War, are you complaining of all the time wasted every time you have to crawl through a duct or something? Games could entirely be construed as a waste of time if you choose to, or you can think fondly on them for what they gave to you or taught you, but again, that's all on you. Loading screens usually suck, and those trick ones like the crawls can be okay if they're well disguised, or intolerable if not, like elevators in Mass Effect. But the ones that keep you engaged, like the old Dragon Ball games on PS2 with the minigames? Those were great. And the aforementioned ones like in God of War try to keep you in the game by making you continue to push the button to make the animation happen. It's daft little stuff like that. It's not just been a limitation of technology, like everything, they can be designed around to be less egregious. Also, I think the big thing here isn't loading screens as transitions, since they can be a good break, but rather loading screens after death. The less loading, the better, but I think that's where it damages the flow of the game the most. If you had even a five second loading screen after each death in Hotline Miami, far less people would've liked it.
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Feb 24, 2020 01:24
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I started replaying DS1 a couple of weeks back, and I got caught up on the Bell Gargoyles boss. The most frustrating thing about that fight isn't necessarily the fight itself, but that if you die, you have to make your way back through the Undead Parish again to give it another try. Doing that isn't hard, but it get tedious. You want to jump right back into it, but you've got to make the trek back, and in doing and you sort of lose the 'rhythm' you had going in trying to beat the boss. That's another thing I really liked about Nioh. Often times, there'd be shrines (the game equivalent to the bonfire) that weren't that far from the boss arena, so if you died to the boss, it was just a short run back. There have been a couple of instance in Soulsborne where the respawn point is literally right outside the boss fog, like with Lady Maria in Bloodborne, or the Royal Rat Authority in DS2 (though the difference there is that the Lady Maria fight is totally awesome, and the Royal Rat Authority fight is awful).
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Feb 24, 2020 01:54
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Max Wilco posted:I started replaying DS1 a couple of weeks back, and I got caught up on the Bell Gargoyles boss. The most frustrating thing about that fight isn't necessarily the fight itself, but that if you die, you have to make your way back through the Undead Parish again to give it another try. Doing that isn't hard, but it get tedious. You want to jump right back into it, but you've got to make the trek back, and in doing and you sort of lose the 'rhythm' you had going in trying to beat the boss. There's an elevator that takes you directly from Firelink Shrine to below the gargoyles. It's still a short trek, but much better than going through the Parish every time. You can also activate the bonfire near the blacksmith, which might or might not be quicker than doing the elevator route.
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Feb 24, 2020 02:02
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Sometime in the last month I finally crossed the line: I now own over 2,000 games in my steam library. I'm currently scrolling through my unsorted games and being occasionally surprised - "when did I buy that? / why did I buy that?" - and you'd think I could stop buying games now, but alas, no, my wishlist is still going strong.
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Feb 24, 2020 02:05
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For example: why do I own Roadside Assistance Simulator? I must have gotten it from a bundle, but for god's sake, why?
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Feb 24, 2020 02:10
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ymgve posted:There's an elevator that takes you directly from Firelink Shrine to below the gargoyles. It's still a short trek, but much better than going through the Parish every time. Oh no, I just meant dealing the Balder Knight and Hollows up on the second floor of the Parish proper; not the whole area. I was using the bonfire near the blacksmith.
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Feb 24, 2020 02:12
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I don't feel arguing about loading screens on death in Sekiro is really valid, since it is often doing that to match console and engine limitations of needing to reset states of things (the time it takes to sit at a shrine and reset enemies that way is about the same as the loading screen is for me). It is definitely true that FromSoft games waste your time in terms of getting back to boss fights though. Often it's a path with 2-3 enemies that you need to learn how to roll/dodge/one-shot through over and over as you keep attempting a boss when they could do what most other games do and stick a shrine/bonfire/whatever right in front of the fog door or boss trigger. The busywork doesn't really add much to the game in terms of gameplay or thematics (aside from maybe draining your healing items a little bit if you get there sloppy) so it really is a bit of a disrespect to player time. Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Feb 24, 2020 |
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Feb 24, 2020 02:56
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Floodkiller posted:I don't feel arguing about loading screens on death in Sekiro is really valid, since it is often doing that to match console and engine limitations of needing to reset states of things (the time it takes to sit at a shrine and reset enemies that way is about the same as the loading screen is for me).
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Feb 24, 2020 03:02
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Peaceful Anarchy posted:Assuming you wanted to let people jump right back in without loading, there's no need to reset states, just respawn right there with both you and the enemy at full health keep everything else in the world state the same. Those console/engine limitations are due to implementation choices (which may or may not be design choices) not because there aren't other ways to do it. This is disingenuous. Off the top of my head, things that need to happen for a Sekiro boss fight to reset properly:
Either you put in a bunch of programming work to make sure things are cleaned up and reset properly (which can still result in multiple bugs that occur, even if you literally design save states into your engine), or you just make things easier and spawn them at a checkpoint as part of the cleanup function.
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Feb 24, 2020 03:17
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I tried Dying Light for the free weekend and does the game ever give you a sense of real power and progression? I am trying to enjoy dropkicking zombies but the game is trying its hardest to withhold this joy from me with special zombies and a low damage output.
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Feb 24, 2020 03:21
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Artelier posted:I tried Dying Light for the free weekend and does the game ever give you a sense of real power and progression? I am trying to enjoy dropkicking zombies but the game is trying its hardest to withhold this joy from me with special zombies and a low damage output. you eventually turn into a ginsu knife on legs, yes
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Feb 24, 2020 03:22
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i'll let people throw whatever slings and arrows they have at sekiro because although i think it is phenomenal i do not hold it close to my heart, but woe betide whatever foe lays a single hand against bloodborne because it is the perfect game and i will see its enemies choked on my blood before i allow a single barb touch its skin
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Feb 24, 2020 03:24
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Artelier posted:I tried Dying Light for the free weekend and does the game ever give you a sense of real power and progression? I am trying to enjoy dropkicking zombies but the game is trying its hardest to withhold this joy from me with special zombies and a low damage output. Kick them off buildings or into spikes, unlock the ability that lets you instant kill knocked down or stunned zombies(exploit this ruthlessly to kill the parkour zombies by forcing them to climb up to you) avoid specials and humans or destroy them with molotovs and explosive throwing stars. Eventually you will get to a point where you can oneshot basic zombies and humans unless they broke that with patches. Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Feb 24, 2020 |
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Feb 24, 2020 03:30
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Soul Glo posted:That said when you are in the zone and parrying and dodging a boss' attack pattern perfectly after he has pushed your poo poo in like ten times in a row you feel amazing. https://twitter.com/SunhiLegend/status/1166486029966172166  Was my game of the year in 2019, I absolutely loved everything about Sekiro.
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Feb 24, 2020 03:33
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Feeling like the games are disrespecting your time by making you fight your way back to the boss is a matter of taste. Personally, having experienced soulsborne games, I find the traditional "checkpoint at the start of the bossfight" type of game to be drastically less engaging in comparison. There's almost none of the tension of wondering whether this will be the run where you pull it off, and a much less cathartic release of tension once you finally do. And I kind of appreciate needing to perform a different, lower-intensity action for a bit to clear my head and loosen up in between attempts, rather than non-stop bashing my head against the exact same challenge on loop. People can have different tastes of course, but it's not like they made a mistake setting it up the way they did.
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Feb 24, 2020 03:36
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i think that's the real crux of the issue though, and also exactly why it's such a tricky thing to navigate: it's a matter of taste. it sounds like a cop out kind of answer but if you just think about games independent of difficulty, what is repetitive and frustrating to one person might genuinely be an enjoyable and satisfying gameplay loop to someone else. i hate that it's such a wishy washy middle of the road answer but it is what it is
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Feb 24, 2020 03:39
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I'm playing Far Cry 4 and am on "City of Pain," the mission where you have to get to De Pleur's hideyhole undetected. The stealth in Far Cry is kind of fiddly to begin with, so having to stealth through a whole mission with stingy checkpoints is a bit much. I watched some walkthroughs but it's a lot of StealthGamerBR types who are far too good at scoring headshots. I think the answer is in bringing lots of bait. The best part of Far Cry games is letting a hungry four-legged predator loose on a bunch of soldiers anyways.
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Feb 24, 2020 03:52
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Cowcaster posted:i think that's the real crux of the issue though, and also exactly why it's such a tricky thing to navigate: it's a matter of taste. it sounds like a cop out kind of answer but if you just think about games independent of difficulty, what is repetitive and frustrating to one person might genuinely be an enjoyable and satisfying gameplay loop to someone else. that's answering a completely different thing, though, when a lot of the anger is deigning to allow both types of players to get fun out of the game by providing options
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Feb 24, 2020 04:01
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flatluigi posted:that's answering a completely different thing, though, when a lot of the anger is deigning to allow both types of players to get fun out of the game by providing options aha! but if the target audience for a game is those who get enjoyment out of failing repeatedly and then overcoming that obstacle, isn’t a failure on the designer’s part if that doesn’t happen? let us pray
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Feb 24, 2020 04:04
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Cowcaster posted:i think that's the real crux of the issue though, and also exactly why it's such a tricky thing to navigate: it's a matter of taste. it sounds like a cop out kind of answer but if you just think about games independent of difficulty, what is repetitive and frustrating to one person might genuinely be an enjoyable and satisfying gameplay loop to someone else. Ultimately, yes. And developers shouldn't be expected to cater to everyone's individual preference on how things are done. If you don't like Sekiro's mechanics and hardline stance on player skill, well hey there are lots of other games out there.
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Feb 24, 2020 04:05
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the conversation just really ends up going like this: A: "I want to play through X because [the story/the aesthetic/the developers/the fact that a lot of other people are playing it and it's become a cultural touchstone] is compelling to me, but [my very little free time/my personal skills/my personal abilities] keep me from doing it. I wish there were more options in games that would allow for me to play it." B: "I have the [time/skill/ability] to play through the game and I think the difficulty is [as important/more important than] why you want to play it." A: "I still want to play it, though?" B: "Then you should somehow overcome what's stopping you (even if that's not possible) or give up on playing it." A: "That sucks, but at least you think I should have the option to play more of these games in the future, right?" B: "I think the difficulty is too important to let you play the game at all, and I think providing options would stop me from enjoying the game as much even if I don't ever pick the options that would make you [enjoy/able to play] it." A: "That also sucks and I'm not sure why I'm talking to you anymore." edit: this was typed up before pantsbandit illustrated my point
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Feb 24, 2020 04:13
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My complaint about load times was not about the load screens themselves, but about making the design decisions that don't take into account the fact that players will have to sit through incessant loading screens. For example, I abandoned my first playthrough of Skyrim on the PS3 after I used a chess clock to determine that I was spending exactly as much time at loading screens as I was playing the game. The problem wasn't technical, since I don't know what they could have done to reduced the length of loading screens. The problem is structural - there are a lot of quests of the form "go to X building in Y town and talk to Z person, then go back to A building in B town and report back to C person", which is basically 6 loading screens minimum to complete what amounts to a single conversation. This is the kind of "respecting the player's time" thing I'm talking about. I'm not saying that they should have made the engine so good that I could do all that stuff without a loading screen, I'm saying maybe when they were designing the quest, they should have thought about how to structure these quests to minimize the amount of needless loading. My problem with Sekiro is similar - it's not the game mechanics I have a problem with, it's that there's no way to practice without eating a loading screen for basically every mistake. Give me a no death mode, or a practice mode, or anything to let me not have to deal with that loading screen, and I will gladly play for hours on end, become a master, and then play it "the correct way" to test my skill. But there's a Catch-22 in the logic of "don't want to see the loading screens? then git gud. want to git gud? prepare to die a lot and sit through hundreds of loading screens".
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Feb 24, 2020 04:17
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Cowcaster posted:i'll let people throw whatever slings and arrows they have at sekiro because although i think it is phenomenal i do not hold it close to my heart, but woe betide whatever foe lays a single hand against bloodborne because it is the perfect game and i will see its enemies choked on my blood before i allow a single barb touch its skin "Bloodborne" is an anagram for "E/N Booblord"
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Feb 24, 2020 04:20
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flatluigi posted:the conversation just really ends up going like this: the problem with the supposition here is i think even die hard dark souls fans would be the first to point out that the “story and lore” parts of the games have been so phenomenally overblown by youtube clickbait enthusiasts and the like. you can pick up all the nuances of the story by reading a wiki page, beating the bosses is the nitty gritty of the “game” part of the game. it’s a failing on the part of the general zeitgeist that people who can’t beat the bosses feel like they’re missing out on something unique and inscrutable: you’re not. you’re only missing out on “oh this boss is hard to beat and i beat him, and i guess there’s an item description here that reveals some backstory about him?”
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Feb 24, 2020 04:22
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Cowcaster posted:the problem with the supposition here is i think even die hard dark souls fans would be the first to point out that the “story and lore” parts of the games have been so phenomenally overblown by youtube clickbait enthusiasts and the like. you can pick up all the nuances of the story by reading a wiki page, beating the bosses is the nitty gritty of the “game” part of the game. it’s a failing on the part of the general zeitgeist that people who can’t beat the bosses feel like they’re missing out on something unique and inscrutable: you’re not. you’re only missing out on “oh this boss is hard to beat and i beat him, and i guess there’s an item description here that reveals some backstory about him?” right, i forgot to put in "you're wrong for wanting to play the game in the first place"
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Feb 24, 2020 04:25
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flatluigi posted:right, i forgot to put in "you're wrong for wanting to play the game in the first place" it’s kind of like stepping up to play darts and someone telling you it’s hard to hit a bullseye and also the dartboard’s mother was an elder god who birthed it unto the world but you can read that over on the pamphlet posted on the wall but also it’s really satisfying to hit a bullseye
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Feb 24, 2020 04:29
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Cowcaster posted:the problem with the supposition here is i think even die hard dark souls fans would be the first to point out that the “story and lore” parts of the games have been so phenomenally overblown by youtube clickbait enthusiasts and the like. you can pick up all the nuances of the story by reading a wiki page, beating the bosses is the nitty gritty of the “game” part of the game. it’s a failing on the part of the general zeitgeist that people who can’t beat the bosses feel like they’re missing out on something unique and inscrutable: you’re not. you’re only missing out on “oh this boss is hard to beat and i beat him, and i guess there’s an item description here that reveals some backstory about him?” I got 100% in Bloodborne, but I didn't pay that close attention to the story, so I can't tell you why that one guy had a birdcage on his head, or why he couldn't settle on a pronunciation. Max Wilco fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Feb 24, 2020 |
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Feb 24, 2020 04:31
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and a triple 20 is worth more than a bullseye anyway so what the gently caress does that guy know
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Feb 24, 2020 04:34
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Cowcaster posted:it’s kind of like stepping up to play darts and someone telling you it’s hard to hit a bullseye and also the dartboard’s mother was an elder god who birthed it unto the world but you can read that over on the pamphlet posted on the wall but also it’s really satisfying to hit a bullseye I think insisting that the series has literally nothing going for it other than difficulty is both disingenuous and easily disprovable and it's not like anyone's going to be dumb enough to fall for that argument if they're already interested enough to want to play it
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Feb 24, 2020 04:34
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the series literally has nothing going for it besides fighting through difficult areas and bosses and it is absolutely not disingenuous that i’m saying that.
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Feb 24, 2020 04:36
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Note that despite my arguments about disrespecting the player's time and having accessibility options, I also willingly play multiple I Wanna Be The Guy/Getting Over It style games where the whole point is to disrespect the player's time to elicit reactions out of the player (mostly negative, sometimes positive) as well as tons of roguelike and roguelite/procedural death labyrinth/nu-roguelikes/whatever-term-you-want-to-use variants. I don't want to leave out my star-crossed love of classic RTS games either. Sometimes it's the entire point of the game/genre to be inaccessible to the majority of the population and that's okay too.
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Feb 24, 2020 04:37
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flatluigi posted:edit: this was typed up before pantsbandit illustrated my point We live in a cultural post-scarcity, he's not wrong.  I really enjoyed watching a friend play Football Manager and kinda' wanted to have a go myself, but that thing is basically an insane spreadsheet simulator and I bounced right off. If making a more accessible mode was realistic and didn't drain resources from the main game getting fully featured, I'd be all for it. But if the devs have decided that their time and effort is best spent elsewhere, that's not really a bother for me. I've got plenty of other games I can play, and they're games, it's not the end of the world if I miss one every now and again.flatluigi posted:I think insisting that the series has literally nothing going for it other than difficulty is both disingenuous and easily disprovable and it's not like anyone's going to be dumb enough to fall for that argument if they're already interested enough to want to play it It's not either/or, and it's also easily disprovable that difficulty ISN'T a major part of the FromSoft style. The very first trailer to DarkS in the West heavily emphasized it. They know what they're doing and where they're going. And heck, if they decide to take a different tack in the future, power to them. I just think their current focus is fine too.
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Feb 24, 2020 04:37
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I mean if y'all are sticking to the stance that people should just gently caress off and stay out of videogames there's not really anywhere else for the conversation to go? I hope someday you're in the position where you have to defend it to someone's face
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Feb 24, 2020 04:41
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i hope that the only thing i’m saying is that i love sticking my dick in a beehive but wouldn’t recommend it to everyone without serious qualifications on whether it’s worth it
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Feb 24, 2020 04:44
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KazigluBey posted:We live in a cultural post-scarcity, he's not wrong. Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Feb 24, 2020 |
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Feb 24, 2020 04:44
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KazigluBey posted:We live in a cultural post-scarcity, he's not wrong. Same, but replace 'Football Manger' with 'Europa Universalis IV' (or any of the Paradox grand strategy games, really). flatluigi posted:I think insisting that the series has literally nothing going for it other than difficulty is both disingenuous and easily disprovable and it's not like anyone's going to be dumb enough to fall for that argument if they're already interested enough to want to play it Again, I think the difficulty of Soulsborne is over-exaggerated. I think a bigger appeal of the games is the way movement and combat works, where everything feels very weighty, and your choice of weapon isn't purely what does the best damage, but what moveset you find you take to the most. Summoning has been brought up, and while summoning works as way to help you get past bosses, there's also a great satisfaction you get when you get summoned into someone's world, and help them past a tough boss. With that, it's less about, 'gitting gud', and more 'jolly cooperation!'
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Feb 24, 2020 04:45
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Cowcaster posted:the series literally has nothing going for it besides fighting through difficult areas and bosses and it is absolutely not disingenuous that i’m saying that.
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Feb 24, 2020 04:51
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Hub Cat posted:and a bunch of people drop out of the sky to imply that they're ruining the sanctity of gaming and its literally destroying [insert game studio here]'s artistic vision to even consider it. Nobody here went that far, outside of whatever strawmen flatluigi is shadowboxing with. "My position: fair and rational. Your position: dumb and so goddamned crazy"-hyperbole-posting sucks, but whatever.
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Feb 24, 2020 04:54
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KazigluBey posted:Nobody here went that far, outside of whatever strawmen flatluigi is shadowboxing with. "My position: fair and rational. Your position: dumb and so goddamned crazy"-hyperbole-posting sucks, but whatever. i know it's your gimmick to be hilariously dismissive but point to anything I said and I'll quote exactly someone who said it in the last few pages
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Feb 24, 2020 04:56
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flatluigi posted:i know it's your gimmick to be hilariously dismissive but point to anything I said and I'll quote exactly someone who said it in the last few pages flatluigi posted:the stance that people should just gently caress off and stay out of videogames
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Feb 24, 2020 05:00
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