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mutata posted:Tools and artistic capabilities have tended to outpace an engine's or console's ability to push the art so every new generational shift tends to just accommodate what artists seem to already want to do. We also have paradigms of cg art creation that reach all the way into animated film and film special effects, so there's plenty of knowledge on how to push things harder higher faster etc. (I think it's a bit of a red herring though. Rendering tech is deep in diminishing returns, content really matters far more for driving visual quality now, so content creation improvements, a.k.a. better tools, are really where the action is going to be going forward, and the rendering tech breakthroughs that do matter are the ones that make content creation easier. That's not even getting into how rendering tech has been losing its ability to differentiate games from each other thanks to feature set convergence and engine reuse.)
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Jan 12, 2020 03:45
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OneEightHundred posted:Rendering tech is deep in diminishing returns, content really matters far more for driving visual quality now, so content creation improvements, a.k.a. better tools, are really where the action is going to be going forward, and the rendering tech breakthroughs that do matter are the ones that make content creation easier. (As not a game developer) I do wonder how much content is actually being created bespoke for new games that aren't going for a stylized look and how much of it isn't and if that's changing significantly over time. As far as I can tell everyone is still using speedtree still—is lots of stuff moving in the direction of tools for generating assets and libraries of premade ones? I'm not particularly fond of AAA open world games, but it seems mind melting how many objects and textures exist in a game like GTA5 and I wonder how they're accomplishing that.
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Jan 12, 2020 14:34
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Wallet posted:(As not a game developer) I do wonder how much content is actually being created bespoke for new games that aren't going for a stylized look and how much of it isn't and if that's changing significantly over time. As far as I can tell everyone is still using speedtree still—is lots of stuff moving in the direction of tools for generating assets and libraries of premade ones? I'm not particularly fond of AAA open world games, but it seems mind melting how many objects and textures exist in a game like GTA5 and I wonder how they're accomplishing that. I can answer it in terms of the GTA5: - The terrain is initially built with World Machine, then cut up and polished by hand. - Trees are mostly generated with Speedtree, but as of RDR2, a good portion were made by hand using photogrammetry scans. - Buildings and props are built almost entirely built by hand - Characters are mostly by hand, with most of the faces using scans of real people for bases - Most of the destruction in cutscenes is pre-computed and baked using Houdini - Destructive props that you can interact with in the game are all cut up and setup by hand Rockstar still does a lot of asset creation by hand. They really don't like things looking procedural or "gamey" so they rely on a ton of artists, and time, to handcraft the majority of the assets. Ubisoft, by comparison, has tools that generate entire blocks of buildings.
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Jan 12, 2020 14:58
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See also Spiderman's procedural Manhattan GDC presentation. It's not just the graphical assets either, a number of sidequests are generated too.
Chev fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Jan 12, 2020 |
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Jan 12, 2020 17:03
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I think its fine to do procedural stuff so long as its in the background. Even big VFX billion dollar movies do procedural in the background for crowd animation and environments. Just as long as you can't tell. I think human animation face and body have a long way to go in games. Deformations still look gamey. Clothing simulation still looks gamey. They are much better than before I guess but not as good as what's actually possible which just shows the tools and pipeline need work.
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Jan 13, 2020 22:52
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Wallet posted:(As not a game developer) I do wonder how much content is actually being created bespoke for new games that aren't going for a stylized look and how much of it isn't and if that's changing significantly over time. As far as I can tell everyone is still using speedtree still—is lots of stuff moving in the direction of tools for generating assets and libraries of premade ones? I'm not particularly fond of AAA open world games, but it seems mind melting how many objects and textures exist in a game like GTA5 and I wonder how they're accomplishing that. Where I am a shitton of the work is just crafted by the artists. It's kind of baffling how much they've done.
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Jan 20, 2020 17:16
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Do we have any community managers lurking around these parts? I'm baby and want to do my new job gud. (Alternatively do you work with any CMs who are friendly to newbies and like to MAKE FRIENDS? I'm transitioning to full CM after a split community support and narrative role and boy I got questions and boy I live in a small country with only a tiny local scene.)
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Jan 21, 2020 10:21
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Shaocaholica posted:I think human animation face and body have a long way to go in games. Deformations still look gamey. Clothing simulation still looks gamey. They are much better than before I guess but not as good as what's actually possible which just shows the tools and pipeline need work. A lot of the problem of things looking "gamey" is tough to solve though because even with a highly complicated and perfect simulation, there simply isn't enough information about player intent available from 6 gamepad inputs, and players want to do things that are physically absurd. How do you accurately animate a player sprinting straight into a knee-high immovable object that doesn't involve them tumbling on to the floor? "Well obviously they'd decelerate," yeah but they're supposed to move the stick to decelerate, and they didn't, so now what? Same with insisting that they go from idle pose to doing a 180 and shooting a specific pixel on the screen and that pixel had better have a bullet in it next frame. Anything that requires an anticipatory action that isn't mapped to an input is just SOL. Cloth physics have a similar issue: While there are some obvious improvements to be made, cloth clipping through models happens in cases where the accurate thing would be to tie in knots and likely restrict your movement. Even with all that though, content is still kind of king because once extra simulations get tacked on to things, it creates a bunch of content work to hook it all up, and to tame it to the point that it's not doing anything screwy, especially if it affects gameplay.
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Jan 22, 2020 04:03
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Anomalous Blowout posted:Do we have any community managers lurking around these parts? I'm baby and want to do my new job gud. I'm currently acting CM for my company since our contract CM escaped into the wild awhile back. I also know a few CM folks who can prolly point you in the right direction. Feel free to PM me.
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Jan 24, 2020 00:20
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Shaocaholica posted:I think its fine to do procedural stuff so long as its in the background. Even big VFX billion dollar movies do procedural in the background for crowd animation and environments. Just as long as you can't tell. I’d contest there’s enough tech for games to have that now, but there simply aren’t the dedicated people on the team to care about it being right. I can’t imagine the budget a game would need before that was the best expenditure of time, or it would need clothing as a key focus. There’re many areas where technology still constrains visuals. Where memory and file sizes and just raw processing power are key factors. But increasingly I think that focus and time is the constraint to fidelity.
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Jan 25, 2020 18:04
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OneEightHundred posted:A lot of the problem of things looking "gamey" is tough to solve though because even with a highly complicated and perfect simulation, there simply isn't enough information about player intent available from 6 gamepad inputs, and players want to do things that are physically absurd. How do you accurately animate a player sprinting straight into a knee-high immovable object that doesn't involve them tumbling on to the floor? "Well obviously they'd decelerate," yeah but they're supposed to move the stick to decelerate, and they didn't, so now what? Same with insisting that they go from idle pose to doing a 180 and shooting a specific pixel on the screen and that pixel had better have a bullet in it next frame. Anything that requires an anticipatory action that isn't mapped to an input is just SOL. One of the more interesting future solutions to this is animation blending using neural networks to come up with something that looks plausible for the character based on their planned movement. So the neural network looks ahead to see what the player's planning on doing and blends to something approximating the best choice based on its training set. The first video is demonstrating a type of neural network that uses the tempo of the character's walk to determine what animation to blend into. The second is an extrapolation of the first to four legged motion by taking advantage of natural animal gaits and it does pretty well considering that dogs are harder to work with than trained mocap actors. Based on the character in the first video wearing a tricorne hat, I'm thinking that the research team is affiliated with Ubisoft. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul0Gilv5wvY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFJvRYtjQ4c An interesting extension of this might be to fighting animations taking into account the character's current state along with their opponent's. So if you and your opponent have swords, the attack is going to take into account the position of the character's feet, their center of balance and the position and momentum of the blade. Instead of unnatural animations the action becomes some weird janky swing while good timing makes for a very fluid fighter.
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Jan 27, 2020 01:27
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1337JiveTurkey posted:One of the more interesting future solutions to this is animation blending using neural networks to come up with something that looks plausible for the character based on their planned movement. So the neural network looks ahead to see what the player's planning on doing and blends to something approximating the best choice based on its training set. The first video is demonstrating a type of neural network that uses the tempo of the character's walk to determine what animation to blend into. The second is an extrapolation of the first to four legged motion by taking advantage of natural animal gaits and it does pretty well considering that dogs are harder to work with than trained mocap actors. Based on the character in the first video wearing a tricorne hat, I'm thinking that the research team is affiliated with Ubisoft. Thanks. Looks like the 'game' part of future 'games' will just be a thin layer on top of a complex simulation engine.
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Feb 12, 2020 01:31
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Shaocaholica posted:Thanks. Looks like the 'game' part of future 'games' will just be a thin layer on top of a complex simulation engine.
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Feb 12, 2020 16:00
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No Wave posted:Hasnt that been the case for decades? I don't know about decades. I don't think game engines have been that general purpose until recently but I guess that depends on your personal definition.
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Feb 12, 2020 18:23
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Anomalous Blowout posted:Do we have any community managers lurking around these parts? I'm baby and want to do my new job gud. I used to be a CM for a bunch of old-school gaming sites in the previous millennium and I've been involved in CM for corporates more recently including some noticeable shitshows AMA (just be kind and honest tho, except have no mercy towards those who would give no mercy)
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Feb 22, 2020 01:08
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Similarly, I was a CM for WoW back in the day, and I've kept up on engagement off and on for other projects I've worked on. I'm not incredibly up on latest practices, but I can talk philosophy easily enough.
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Feb 25, 2020 17:04
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Cyster posted:Similarly, I was a CM for WoW back in the day, and I've kept up on engagement off and on for other projects I've worked on. I'm not incredibly up on latest practices, but I can talk philosophy easily enough. Is there any relationship between your former job and your current avatar on the somethingawful forums? If yes or no, why does that relationship definitely exist now in the present year?
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Feb 26, 2020 09:55
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Willie Tomg posted:Is there any relationship between your former job and your current avatar on the somethingawful forums? If yes or no, why does that relationship definitely exist now in the present year? I believe that avatar was for work on Wildstar.
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Feb 27, 2020 12:18
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I'm one of those people who has made the tremendously foolish step of trying to make their own indie videogame. I know I have blind spots, things I just don't know I should be aware of because I haven't worked in the industry (my background is software engineering, but, like, corporate/enterprise stuff). So, first off: if you have any particular advice to someone in this position, please do lay it on me. Second, what all am I missing from this list that you'd consider basically vital to the creation of a game? - coding, graphics, writing, game/level design, project management (so to speak, there's only one of me): doing all this myself - sound effects: I'm buying off the shelf and tweaking as needed - music: presumably going to hire out eventually - QA/testing: hoping to lean on the community for this - marketing, publishing: ??? feels like it's much too early to worry about this? I don't even have a playable demo yet.
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Feb 27, 2020 16:37
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I'm one of those people who has made the tremendously foolish step of trying to make their own indie videogame. I know I have blind spots, things I just don't know I should be aware of because I haven't worked in the industry (my background is software engineering, but, like, corporate/enterprise stuff). So, first off: if you have any particular advice to someone in this position, please do lay it on me. Second, what all am I missing from this list that you'd consider basically vital to the creation of a game? If you’re trying to make money, you shouldn’t start on projects without market research and a monetization plan you both understand and believe you can follow through on. You also need to understand your marketing plan. If you’re just taking a break year for an art project, that’s not a terrible list. Likely you’re going to have some contractors working on some art/translations/etc. So there’s still general business/negotiation stuff. Art direction is a separate skill from painting. You should probably preference learning that over learning modeling/drawing. I’m also an engineer though, and I don’t have a lot of lit on hand to give you. 
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Feb 27, 2020 16:57
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Yeah, this is more of a break year project than a business, though at this point it's pretty clear I'm not gonna be done with it in just one year. Guess who let scope get the better of them?  Good point on the business / legal work though. Art is a tricky thing; I'm doing it both because I want the control over visuals and because I don't want to pay for bespoke art. I'm not great at it, and while I'm getting better all the time it's still going to be a weak point in the finished product, I expect. Assistance with art design (either me paying someone, or some tips on how I can get better at it myself) is definitely something I could use.
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Feb 27, 2020 17:34
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kirbysuperstar posted:I believe that avatar was for work on Wildstar. The great part is Cyster was largely responsible for the best content Wildstar had to offer besides housing: shiphands if I'm remembering right?
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Feb 27, 2020 17:47
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I basically started like you, except I was on the art side at first. For me there were two big hurdles: 1- Code: I took a short course on Unity and C# which wasn't all that great but it at least sent me on the right path. I started with the simplest project I could think off to make sure I'd be able to complete it and over time I have steadily increased the complexity on subsequent projects. While I still don't consider myself a good programmer at least I know what I'm capable of and what I can potentially achieve with a bit of reasearch and creative thinking. Sometimes I still have to sacrifice some gameplay ideas to accomodate my coding capabilities. Depending on how comfortable you are with art you might find it easier to hire an artist to make assets for you or maybe make something where art is not so important, such as Minecraft or Thomas Was Alone. 2- Marketing: I make free educational games for a university so luckily I don't need to worry about making money on my projects. That said I still need to generate as many downloads as possible and honestly this is the hardest part since I have literally no marketing budget. I think you should start to generate buzz as soon as you can, try to get people to play demos and show your game off in their channels. You really need to leverage social media to get people interested in your game. As for the other stuff, I think you can pick up a lot of things as you go. For example, I had technically never designed a game except for a few game jams but that turned out not to be a problem. As for QA I just get whoever is willing to play my game for a few minutes. While this is obviously not ideal it works for my really small scale games. If you can set aside a small budget to help you with the things that you can't do I think you can be successful, at least in the making the game part.
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Feb 27, 2020 17:50
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I'm in a similar position except my project is 100% just a vanity project because I think it would be cool to do, and I'm going to buy/contract all of the art. Has anyone ever done that before? I'm really curious about what the process is going to be like.
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Feb 27, 2020 22:08
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Find someone who makes art that you like, tell them what you want and they will tell you if they can/want to do it and how much they'd charge. Then you decide if it's worth it. It may vary from artist to artist but that's generally it.
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Feb 27, 2020 23:18
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I don't know how marketing works either. We have an in-house publishing arm and they do get our games (and other people's games) sold, and what little I've managed to figure out from interactions with them is that it takes a lot of work and requires having a good contact network. My advice on the marketing front is: if at all possible, don't do it yourself. Self-publishing is difficult at the best of times, especially if you're a small operation. Once your game is good enough to have a vertical slice, get in touch with a couple publishers you think might be interested and sell it to one of them. They will take care of marketing for you, and they're many times better at it than you. I also want to stress what leper khan said above: If you are in this to do it as a job, for money, do not embark on anything without having your financials secured. Do not under any circumstance rely on projected profits after release, especially for a solo operation. Well-meaning but naive people have worked themselves half to death over dreams only to find that the market just isn't interested in what they were making. On the other hand, if this is more like an extended art project and you know where your daily bread is coming from in the meantime, by all means have fun.
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Feb 28, 2020 08:46
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The weird thing about publishers and marketing is that if your game is a very marketable hype machine already you might get a deal that's mutually beneficial but if not, there's a very real possibility that you'll just get fleeced. The deal you're handed might be OK on paper but if you're not in the top 5 upcoming games the publisher has they'll just spend the minimum effort possible on you and concentrate on the big games in their portfolio. Your game is just a low-cost low-risk gamble for them. Most of the vague promises will soon be forgotten if your game's hype doesn't take off with little effort and if you have actual money promised in the deal, like a marketing budget (recoupable of course), it'll get spent on ineffective bullshit or siphoned to marketing the bigger games ("hey we'll do a joint event with press and streamers where we split the budget evenly across the promoted games but oops seems like your game just sits there in the dark corner on a lonely demo machine while we showcase the more important games!"). All the talk about "we have a great relationship with steam/nintendo/whatever" doesn't actually mean much in practice. They probably can't do anything more efficiently with those platforms that you could do on your own and you're better off in the long run trying to build those relationships for yourself personally if your game is impressive enough to get their attention. Marketing isn't easy but trying to swim in the shark-infested waters of publishers isn't either. I would only look for a publisher if my game is prolific enough to get an actual publisher, not a leech, and even then I'd prioritize royalties, advances and possibly porting in the contract negotiations over marketing. If you have the budget you can consider working with a marketing partner but for an indie the press, the streamers and the public appreciate a direct contact with the developers so you shouldn't outsource it entirely either.
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Feb 28, 2020 10:07
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There’s also boring things like tax and legal. Who do you turn to if you get a C&D tomorrow for some reason? When you make that first $1,000 off selling it, how does that factor into your taxes for the year? This is something Publishers can help a lot with too. Testing in general will be harder than you think. First of all there’s the play testing. If you really want to actually make it good, you need to watch people play it. Not get sentiment from people. Bug finding and tracking will be rough solo, especially anything that is due to bad interaction with other hardware or software you don’t have. Release testing will be excruciating. Great you fixed a load of bugs for v1.3! What did you break? Is it ready to ship yet? In general you seem confident in your ability to make the thing, so for now concentrate on that and when you have it 80% of the way there start talking to people about the other 80% of work that needs doing.
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Feb 28, 2020 10:19
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MissMarple posted:There’s also boring things like tax and legal. Who do you turn to if you get a C&D tomorrow for some reason? When you make that first $1,000 off selling it, how does that factor into your taxes for the year? This is something Publishers can help a lot with too. (US Tax information) Just as a side note if you make more than $5 in a year it counts as regular income and they should send you a form. Valve/Steam sent them out about January 15th. This limit is much lower than other forms of compensation (game sales count as royalty payments) and confuses most people the first year they get it.
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Feb 28, 2020 20:46
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Thanks for the advice, y'all! It sounds like the big takeaways are: * Keep working on building a community. I'm on Twitter and periodically do livestreams on Twitch; my impression is that Reddit hates self-promoters so I haven't been talking about it there (plus I have zero established identity there). * Get a lawyer and an accountant handy for if/when they're needed. * Be very cautious around signing any publishing deals (assuming I ever make it that far!); get solid commitments from them in terms of amount of effort they'll put in. On an unrelated note, I started working on making a "trailer" for the game. Not really for promotion, just something I can throw at people to explain in ~1 minute what the heck I'm working on. And I gotta say, it's amazing how many bugs you find when you start trying to make the thing look good instead of just making it work. 
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Feb 28, 2020 21:35
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MadFriarAvelyn posted:The great part is Cyster was largely responsible for the best content Wildstar had to offer besides housing: shiphands if I'm remembering right? Yep, that was mainly me and my guys. I'm still in design these days, just on an unannounced project. My avatar is evergreen, really. I see no need to change it.
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Feb 29, 2020 07:48
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I've a touch of experience in games industry stuff. If you're just doing it for fun, nice, if you might want to make money from it, there's a few things you can do that others don't do. Research - research your audience. What games do they like, what don't they like, are there any games similar to yours coming up soon or in the distant past? Just basic stuff really, but having a decent idea about the market is useful. Networking - go out and meet people, if you live near a big city there might be an indie games scene there already you can meet with. If not, there's usually events/festivals you can go to. I'd suggest generally go with a purpose in mind, like you want to talk to x amount of people or meet with such and such a publisher. Look at the games yours is most similar too and try and have a chat with them (even if just asking for advice) Extra staff - anything you don't know how to do, it's usually cheaper and easier to just pay someone to do it. Marketing, accounting, legal etc. - the 'soft skills' - have steep learning curves, and if you're in a small team the time you spend doing that is what you're not spending developing your game. Being legal - Set yourself up as a limited company or have some kind of legal structure in place. If you are looking for investment this reduces risk. Having a business bank account separate is also good. If anything goes wrong the company is liable for any debt rather than you (but check the contract) Do gamejams, make games, make characters or bits of code, just keep making stuff. I think starting off with little projects is a good way to learn quickly, and working with others is a good way to start building a team. Splitting work - a lot of indie studios might work on their game for x amount of hours but do work for hire on other projects to keep themselves ticking over. This might be on other (funded) indie games or apps for universities or VR poo poo for schools - go out and about, be contactable. Don't bother with big overheads like office space or even nice chairs to begin with - just anything that can make you produce faster. Budget a bit to go to and meet people - all businesses are based around people really. If you have poo poo social skills, don't worry, most people do. Just try to be honest and try and avoid being negative about this or that.
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Mar 10, 2020 19:00
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E3 has been cancelled. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/03/e3-2020-has-been-canceled/
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Mar 11, 2020 03:29
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I am still going to San Francisco next week even though GDC is cancelled. I'd be giving up 1.4k in flights and AirBNB otherwise so my wife and I are just going to enjoy the time off. I've wanted to go since I was 16 but poo poo happens. I was looking forward to the inspiration and experience but I'll just dig deeper to find that on my own.
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Mar 11, 2020 03:39
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I think there were some people looking to organize an indie-ish GDC-without-GDC thing, it's been a little while so I can't find it on my twitter feed. But I feel you, I'm local so I don't have plane tickets or hotel fees, but I still paid for the pass out of pocket and I really hope they do issue refunds as they said they would. 
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Mar 11, 2020 04:37
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Stick100 posted:E3 has been cancelled. And nothing of value was lost.
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Mar 11, 2020 08:13
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justcola posted:I've a touch of experience in games industry stuff. If you're just doing it for fun, nice, if you might want to make money from it, there's a few things you can do that others don't do. I really should be playing these games more, I recognize that. I think I have some kind of psychological block around interacting with "the competition", even though intellectually I know that "early-mid 20th century naval combat" is a very broad genre and players who like it are likely to play all good games in the genre. quote:Networking - go out and meet people, if you live near a big city there might be an indie games scene there already you can meet with. If not, there's usually events/festivals you can go to. I'd suggest generally go with a purpose in mind, like you want to talk to x amount of people or meet with such and such a publisher. Look at the games yours is most similar too and try and have a chat with them (even if just asking for advice) quote:Extra staff - anything you don't know how to do, it's usually cheaper and easier to just pay someone to do it. Marketing, accounting, legal etc. - the 'soft skills' - have steep learning curves, and if you're in a small team the time you spend doing that is what you're not spending developing your game. But yeah, totally agreed on the soft skills. In addition to marketing, accounting, and legal, I'd tack on music, portraiture / splash art, and general art design. Speaking of that last one, I'd characterize my graphics as "adequate" at the moment -- they're functional but not impressive. Partially this is because I have an intentionally streamlined art pipeline due to needing to do everything myself -- nothing is UV textured, everything uses a generic set of materials, etc. But I feel like it should be possible to improve the art by making a few relatively small changes, if I only knew what those changes were. I need, like, a professional artistic consultation or something. Is that a thing? quote:Do gamejams, make games, make characters or bits of code, just keep making stuff. I think starting off with little projects is a good way to learn quickly, and working with others is a good way to start building a team. Thanks, these are all helpful. I tend to fixate on making the game, but a lot of what you're covering here is about making games and having a social support network you can hit up for work if you're short on income, which also absolutely makes sense.
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Mar 11, 2020 15:48
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I'm reminded of this game I rented once and never saw again until I just now googled it up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu4-IhV--Ww&t=543s Seems this game is half naval battles and half load screen though unless you're playing the weenie boat to drag things out, lol Ranzear fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Mar 15, 2020 |
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Mar 15, 2020 01:02
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How do you cheat the system these days as a small indie team if you want to get closer to a AAA level of quality with none of the manpower? Will buying off the shelf assets get you far these days, or does that ultimately not solve the problem if you want to have a game that's got a lot of content in it?
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Mar 19, 2020 21:31
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After hearing about PS 5 and Kraken decompesson - I had a look at RAD game tools's site http://www.radgametools.com/oodlekraken.htm LZMA/7zip comparison  Those are all CPU comparisons, Mark Cerny was talking about a dedicated decompression ASIC built into the PS5 which is getting me hot and bothered. DreadCthulhu posted:How do you cheat the system these days as a small indie team if you want to get closer to a AAA level of quality with none of the manpower? Will buying off the shelf assets get you far these days, or does that ultimately not solve the problem if you want to have a game that's got a lot of content in it? PUBG is an example of off the shelf assets and a small team, and it definitely has its tradeoffs. Compelling gameplay? yes. Original character designs and animation? no
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Mar 19, 2020 23:19
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