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TGLT posted:But straight up no killer has been dumpstered. I don't know what else you'd call what happened to Oni on launch. E: Like I will fully grant that Doc's latest changes and even the Plague change are solid net positives if not full on, unmitigated buffs but they came after a period of kicking Killers while they were down that lasted a while. Orv fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Feb 27, 2020 |
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Feb 27, 2020 02:41
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Orv posted:I don't know what else you'd call what happened to Oni on launch. Oni, even during the nerf period, was still fine. There was no reason to play him over Billy but you can say the same about basically ever sub-high tier killer. Without the flick he was solidly mid-tier, and he has the flick again. Pre-buff Freddy was unplayable. That's what I mean by a dumpstering. Pre-nerf Oni was fine, sub-Myers but better than like Trapper. Pre-buff Freddy was a joke character. edit: Like if you didn't get to see pre-buff Freddy, you had to spend 4 seconds putting people to sleep so you could even hit them once. People unhooked and left the exit gates in front of him. Playing Freddy was the killer equivalent of running No Mither. TGLT fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Feb 27, 2020 |
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Feb 27, 2020 02:44
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TGLT posted:Legion hasn't gotten nerfed They literally just did like a patch ago, they took all synergy away from feral frenzy hits, which poo poo on a bunch of their builds that weren't even busted, then they made deep wound even more worthless at the same time. TGLT posted:Without the flick he was solidly mid-tier, and he has the flick again. Also what? At what rank are we talking about, because Oni was 100% not fine after the nerfs, he's literally an M1-only killer until he gets hits in, which might even take him a while at first, even longer when they reduced the blood he got from everything, then when he gets it, they even made it less rewarding with how much drain and how it goes away after things, he's straight up "Billy: If they made him today" where they'd probably make him go get gas twice to sprint a quarter of the map or something idiotic. Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Feb 27, 2020 |
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Feb 27, 2020 18:11
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Anyone acting like nurse was ever ok is not worth listening to. Playing nurse was boring, she was basically unstoppable. Playing against nurse was boring, she's was loving unstoppable. "Oh look i've seen a survivor time to down them in two attempts because you literally can't juke her if the person playing her is even vaguely competent".
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Feb 27, 2020 18:26
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Nurse is a result of BHVR's own awful design and complacency in awful balance. Learn Nurse well at all and next time you get back to back games of turbo cancer SWF groups, turn on the "gently caress you" ghost for a while. That or iridescent head + infantry belt + ward Huntress rarely if ever fails to set people off who are obviously trying to be assholes, like if you're only out to make my game feel bad, cry about it in the post chat. Additionally, Nurse was 100% fine for long spans of the game when you were otherwise just expected to deal with the mile long loops on multiple maps and genuinely broke as gently caress free escape loadouts, she's a debug killer. Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Feb 27, 2020 |
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Feb 27, 2020 18:51
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Yardbomb posted:They literally just did like a patch ago, they took all synergy away from feral frenzy hits, which poo poo on a bunch of their builds that weren't even busted, then they made deep wound even more worthless at the same time. I'm saying nerfing Legion is implying Legion was ever good or could ever have been good. Yeah they took away the STBFL stacks from frenzy stabs in exchange for a longer duration at a higher speed, although less than what it originally was, but the problem is Legion is busted at his core. It's a failed character concept. They are doomed to have attributes shifted around until the day they just get a full rework. As for during the nerf, by fine I mean Oni was more viable than the bottom tier of the roster. He did better than Trapper or Clown. You could win. You had a power you could use. This is in contrast to pre-rework Freddy who was, again, a joke character you played to punish yourself. Post-restored flick Oni is 100% on par with Billy. The only nerfs to his blood gain were that survivors drop one less orb on a vault and you lose some power on downing some one. In exchange he gets orbs from hooking people, grabs on healthy survivors is treated like hitting them, and he no longer loses charge when picking people up. Needing to charge you power is absolutely worth it for the ability to on demand negate any sharp turn and to drift around the map, especially since juicing back up is not an issue once you get going. Injured survivors still bleed like crazy even trying to heal themselves. If you're having issues getting your first two hits, I don't know what to tell you. edit: I guess, if you're seriously concerned about it just farm the first injured survivor until you're about full before downing them. You'll get the remainder of your power on hooking them. TGLT fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Feb 27, 2020 |
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Feb 27, 2020 19:21
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TGLT posted:Post-restored flick Oni is 100% on par with Billy. Absolutely not. Billy's big strength is first and foremost is how fast he can tear across most maps any time he needs to, which would take others the duration of a gen to reach in some of the worst map cases, while the ability to rear end-saw and instadowns are only the icing on that ability, meanwhile Oni is more like a hodgepodge of Billy and Leatherman, more than anything else they both (Oni, Bubba) mostly only excel at stomping on people who are dumb enough to crowd for whichever reason, but put into a hackneyed Billy-ish wrapper with Oni's case. That and the worst of it is that Oni's sprint and entire deal is tied to an annoying resource which he can't always top off and which he can get super screwed on if the team is like a SWF who are any good, which can leave him starving when he usually wants that sprint most, while Billy can just zoom as he pleases for the massive pressure that allows him. As matches keep getting shorter for dumber reasons, the gap between Billy and pretty much everyone else is only gonna widen too, since as BHVR seems so set on trying to hobble the good slowdown options, the killer able to react across the map the fastest is gonna become more and more powerful.
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Feb 27, 2020 21:58
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Not if they keep buffing the 3 gen strat
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Feb 27, 2020 22:02
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Hell even 3 gen, Billy still gets to respond to any inkling of activity quicker and it's often easy to saw down someone blundering away in those situations too. Killer power has been based on traversal ability pretty much always since things have been left to ramp up, it's why Nurse is what she has been as the only killer who gets to definitively say "lol no" to looping, to a certain facet of getting around it's why Ghost Face is by far the best 'stealth' killer too since he doesn't have to hobble himself (Like T1 Myers or Pig crouching around) and gets to take away from survivors with the stain etc. removal, Huntress sort of fits in at her better times because she gets to project her attacks farther and faster. Honestly everything being sped up and let continue to do so contributed to a lot of the game's theme dying to me as well, Trapper's original trap laying animation felt heavy and grody, now it's chunk-clink-snap go, the game getting way lightened up is sort of a positive/negative but it still hurt map atmosphere overall, stuff like that'll always be missed when I liked a game for details early on.
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Feb 27, 2020 22:15
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Honestly, to me, a perfect asymmetrical horror game would not even care about kills, it'd just be "Spooker" and "Spookee", and the spooker is rewarded for startling, delaying, and confusing the other players, while the ones getting spooked get rewarded for completing objectives... but also for getting startled or confused. Like, the game wouldn't care who 'won' but instead how good the 'spooksperience' was, to make up a term.
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Feb 27, 2020 22:51
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For a moment there I was confused and thought I was looking at the official BHVR forums with all the aggressive bitching about how bad the Devs are and how they have no idea how to balance their game. They only care about survivors guys, can't you see it with all the nerfs to insta-heals they did a couple patches ago and the nerfs to toolboxes they're doing this coming patch? Super survivor sided, gently caress killers. But seriously, I admire BHVR for taking the long slow approach using statistical data they gather and drawing conclusions while also taking with a big grain of salt the very vocal opinion of the minority on their forums/reddit/dead comedy forums on the internet. They've been doing a decent job at taking out patently unfun game mechanics that don't add anything to the game and just make the game super boring/frustrating/uninteractive for one side (ex. old Ruin, slowing Nurse down, instant heals, old DS, old BNP etc.) Are they perfect? No, but at least they're trying and care. As to the main point of this whole conversation about how they "dumpstered Oni when transfered from PTB to live" is hilariously pointless. The super flick Oni had was an unintended side effect of two, normally unbound, buttons for Look Left and Look Right that people found out they could bind and use to do ridiculous hair pin turns while dashing or 360 no scope flick with Demon Strike/Demon Dash. 100% BHVR's QC probably didn't even think to check that would have an affect on controlling a new killer because how the hell is something like two buttons no one usually uses have such an extreme effect upon a killer power? The sheer fact that BHVR decided to add it back in a more limited 90 degree form should attest to the fact they A) listened to the community asking for it back, B) thought it was a cool mechanic and wanted to keep it despite not intending it in the first place. "But BHVR doesn't care or listen guys, poo poo devs!" Yeah uh-huh, if you say so. I wouldn't be surprised if they're considering how to rework moris and keys next at this rate, as the other major thing everyone on the official forums cries about constantly right now. Also comparing Billy to any killer is stupid and pointless, he's the most busted, brain dead killer and hopefully eats nerfs at some point. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say Oni is a balanced version of Billy that's actually fun to play against. I'm saying this as a primarily killer player, though I play enough survivor to put up with red rank killer poo poo.
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Feb 27, 2020 23:22
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SaffronKit posted:I wouldn't be surprised if they're considering how to rework moris and keys next at this rate SaffronKit posted:The super flick Oni had was an unintended side effect SaffronKit posted:Also comparing Billy to any killer is stupid and pointless, he's the most busted, brain dead killer and hopefully eats nerfs at some point. SaffronKit posted:I admire BHVR for taking the long slow approach using statistical data they gather and drawing conclusions while also taking with a big grain of salt the very vocal opinion of the minority on their forums/reddit/dead comedy forums on the internet. They've been doing a decent job at taking out patently unfun game mechanics that don't add anything to the game and just make the game super boring/frustrating/uninteractive for one side. lol How it all reads posted:For a moment there I was confused and thought I was looking at the official BHVR forums with all the hack dev apologetics. BHVR suck massive rear end and your arguments are bad, look at these couple super egregious things that took for-loving-ever to actually do even the smallest things about guys (Which are still problems even post-nerf) while they did more important things like further hammering bad killers in anticipation of them using new perks, then indirectly buffing one of the already most overused survivors perks as well in the process of doing so, then killing off the actual most necessary perk for a bunch of killers throughout all ranks because it frustrated literal rank 20 survivors too much, survivor sided amirite huh 
Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Feb 27, 2020 |
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Feb 27, 2020 23:30
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i'd be a lot more persuaded by the idea that the DbD devs used data to make their changes if they could stick to any kind of cohesive data set but even from a disinterested outsider's perspective (e.g., mine) they cannot do that.
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Feb 27, 2020 23:41
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Didn't it almost take 3 weeks to fix the almost instant flash light bug? When it took seven or so hours to fix a bunch of killer beneficial bugs when Ruin was nerfed?
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Feb 28, 2020 00:19
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It took them like a day or two to fix the 'Basement hooks put people's view in the skybox' thing, but some of the killer bugs from that patch still happen.
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Feb 28, 2020 00:32
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It’s almost like game development and bug squashing are difficult or something.
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Feb 28, 2020 00:49
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Lord_Magmar posted:It’s almost like game development and bug squashing are difficult or something. They've worn out the benefit of the doubt on that honestly.
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Feb 28, 2020 00:57
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Coolguye posted:i'd be a lot more persuaded by the idea that the DbD devs used data to make their changes if they could stick to any kind of cohesive data set but even from a disinterested outsider's perspective (e.g., mine) they cannot do that. I kinda wish they would too. On the other hand, a lot of people would just use it try demonize them more, though I still lean more towards releasing more data because graphs and data are cool. Yardbomb posted:lol Exhaustion may simply be making me miss something obvious, but I'm not sure which changes you're refering to that further hammer bad killers in anticipation of new perks? And which overused survivor perk are you refering to that was indirectly buffed? As for the Ruin changes, frankly they were kind of needed. Big IMO, it taught bad killer play, gave no real feedback (for the killer), was super frustrating for novice survivors, and was kinda just tedious as an experienced survivor. I personally didn't use Ruin at all once I got better as killer, especially after I started playing more survivor. Whenever you saw the red circle you kinda just rolled your eyes and powered through it going for great skill checks. It was just kinda an un-interactive perk that wasn't fun to play with or against and unfortunately felt necessary. Did BHVR fix the core problem that made 80% of red rank killers run it before changing it? No. Were they going to get any kind of relevant data to help isolate the problem without changing it? Probably not.
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Feb 28, 2020 02:43
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Survivors: "My camera is bugged sometimes when I'm on a hook." BHVR: "ON IT RIGHT AWAY SIR!" Killers: "I literally cannot hear sounds in the game sometime" BHVR: *Nerfs Legion*
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Feb 28, 2020 05:02
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Tinfoil Papercut posted:Survivors: "My camera is bugged sometimes when I'm on a hook." BHVR: Just use Whispers.
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Feb 28, 2020 06:00
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SaffronKit posted:I kinda wish they would too. On the other hand, a lot of people would just use it try demonize them more, though I still lean more towards releasing more data because graphs and data are cool. SaffronKit posted:But seriously, I admire BHVR for taking the long slow approach using statistical data they gather and drawing conclusions
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Feb 28, 2020 09:20
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Yardbomb posted:They've worn out the benefit of the doubt on that honestly. Nah game Dev is legit very hard, bugs are expected, I can't think of any bug free modern games
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Feb 28, 2020 09:24
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I will say I do think BHVR screwed up very early on in the ideation phase when they decided perks should be teachable. As it creates a system wherein survivors have very little uniqueness, and to a lesser extent killers as well (their base kits help but you still want generally the same perks on everyone). I feel like the game would have been far more interesting if Survivors and Killers had set character perks maybe with progression allowing some optionality. Or if teachable perks were a much smaller pool. As an example, there could have been a survivor who specifically becomes the Killer’s obsession as a Perk, but there’s no way to do that when all perks are shared.
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Feb 28, 2020 14:20
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Players will always pick the most effective choice. So they would play the best survivors based on their perks. They should. Its the least they can do in a team based game. Just a bs idea, I was thinking the other night that it would be cool if each match had random and limited menu of of killers, perks, and maybe items. Like instead of being able to pick everything, all the time, let the lobby/ready stage display a subset of choices. Make the game more about being good with a variety of skills instead of the meta.
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Feb 28, 2020 14:42
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So kind of like an ability draft? Shared batch or random selection based off unlocked characters? Could work, shared pool could suck.
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Feb 28, 2020 15:04
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Coolguye posted:wait what I'm not sure how those ideas are connected or conflict aside from the fact they're both about data? Honestly confused. temple posted:Players will always pick the most effective choice. So they would play the best survivors based on their perks. They should. Its the least they can do in a team based game. I also think this sums up pretty much any game's balance issues, especially if it happens to be a multiplayer of some sort. Though whether or not a player should be obligated to play the most optimal way is another debate entirely.
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Feb 28, 2020 15:06
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SaffronKit posted:I'm not sure how those ideas are connected or conflict aside from the fact they're both about data? Honestly confused.
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Feb 28, 2020 17:11
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Coolguye posted:the second quote says they use data as a primary motivator in their patching and iteration process. i specifically took issue with this because i see no evidence of them doing this. you then responded to me and agreed that they did not. Ah, my exhaustion from work the previous evening lead me to misread your post. I mistook it for you bemoaning the fact they won't post any cohesive data to shake your head at. Rereading it I can understand your confusion at how I posted. My apologies.
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Feb 28, 2020 17:37
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No mither is one of the best perks in the game. - Completely negates ALL one hit knockdown killers - haunted ground? NOED? Iron maiden? Who cares! - same with sloppy butcher, nurses calling, and so on - will know if the killer is running thanatophobia immediately - no need to cleanse vs plague! Denies her powerup from fountains - legion's feral frenzy cannot injure you! I mean, you will still need to mend, but yeah. - causes your team mates to chase you around the map trying to heal you, so you can keep an eye on what your team is doing throughout the match. Teamwork! - you cannot be slugged, so the killer will be forced to hook you instead. You will die faster and not have to lie on the floor for 5 minutes! - tells you if the killer is oni at the start of the game because you will be leaking blood orbs. Valuable intel! - resilience perk is on at the start of the game. AbortRetryFail fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Feb 28, 2020 |
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Feb 28, 2020 23:37
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I finally started forcing myself to queue for Killer (even with the longer wait times) and oh my god, applying the poo poo I've learned as a Survivor in reverse is so much fun. The Hag in particular is just fantastic at objective pressure. I'll enjoy hooking you while returning your pal to the hook while my phantasm screams at you, thanks. I also tried The Pig, because I like Amanda, but she just seems so awful in comparison. What sort of things should I focus on as The Pig? Edit: V thanks guys, I'll have a look. I did feel like Pig's kit doesn't really synthesize super well like Hag's, but playing as licenced killers is kinda fun 
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Feb 29, 2020 13:12
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PsychoScorpionz (channel is just https://www.twitch.tv/scorpionz ) plays a shitload of Pig so you could probably pick up some tips from there, but Pig's just not a great killer. She's in need of a rework. Also, I'm curious exactly what instablind bug cropped up when that was being talked about earlier. There was a period where that was just a legit design decision, but Odd Bulb hasn't worked like that for a while. As for whether or not they deserve the benefit of the doubt, kinda depends on the bug. Some of the bugs 100% enter the game because they are just bad at killer poo poo and don't notice, but a number of the fresher killer bugs are absolutely sourced back to the switch to dedicated servers and the change over from killer as master of the game state to just one deciding factor. which maybe should have been a sign to slow down but they promised dedicated servers last summer so whee backrevvin' wall hack myers.
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Feb 29, 2020 17:32
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Pig pretty much relies on good macro killer play just like any M1 killer, with some small learning curve on how to manipulate your TR with crouching and getting free hits with the dash in the right spots. And hey, free gen pressure with your hats. The absolute most important thing to learn though is Boop the Snoot. If a survivor approaches you in a crouch and points at you repeatedly while you're playing Pig, make sure to crouch yourself and let them boop the snoot. Then do whatever you want after!
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Feb 29, 2020 18:44
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TGLT posted:PsychoScorpionz (channel is just https://www.twitch.tv/scorpionz ) plays a shitload of Pig so you could probably pick up some tips from there, but Pig's just not a great killer. She's in need of a rework.
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Mar 1, 2020 17:30
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Honestly it's why I just take lightborn on every killer. The number of survivors who don't understand how it works is hilarious.
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Mar 1, 2020 17:43
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Kortel posted:Basically same time as ruin change all flashlights blinded within half a second regardless of add ons or quality. I stopped playing killer due to it, entire teams of Flashlights. So while I was deep into Warframe. Yeah, old bugs coming back is definitely BHVR quality.
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Mar 1, 2020 18:16
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TGLT posted:So while I was deep into Warframe. Yeah, old bugs coming back is definitely BHVR quality. Big issue was several small bugs that effected only survivors got fixed within hours and several bugs for killers that massively effected game play was three weeks or more. Massively frustrating and borderline infuriating for a third of the player base.
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Mar 1, 2020 19:17
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Still a newbie, sorry to any survivors here that have been on my team. To the killers that, when they're dominating a game, obey the silly courtesy of turning around when survivors point, hats off to you. I had a great game against a Shape who, whenever I spammed point, would go attack the object I pointed at. Yes, I got murdered in the end, but it was fun.
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Mar 2, 2020 14:27
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One of the finest things in DBD is when you point at a locker and a killer opens it to find nothing, or when you get them to fall for Diversion.
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Mar 2, 2020 15:53
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The absolute madmen pushed the sabo changes to live with no changes while nerfing Hangman's Trick from PTB. No buffs to Deathslinger to fix any of his obvious issues, and they dumpstered his Gearhead perk, while the Red Herring perk for the new survivor got a buff. 
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Mar 10, 2020 16:51
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The sabo changes are fine, especially with the nerf to wiggle gain when dropping survivors, and of course Hangman's Trick was gonna get nerfed since it was just infinite information. The Gearhead changes seem dumb (pick one or the other drat) and boy Deathslinger could use a little more attention.
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Mar 10, 2020 17:06
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