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so if the newest rumors about 5G are accurate, it sounds like it might be getting reworked into more of an All-New All-Different Marvel kind of thing, and that they might be backing away from the more drastic changes to the sliding timeline
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Feb 28, 2020 19:01
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Edge & Christian posted:Golden Age/Silver Age Pa Kent: Died before Superman appeared Post-Crisis was heart attack and in the Donner's Pa is dead, but Ma is alive. Killing them off just feels lazy as all loving hell since TAS has shown that it can work and you can bounce stuff off them really well. Same with some of the stories Post-Crisis. doomrider7 fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Feb 28, 2020 |
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Feb 28, 2020 19:24
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Hey remember when the Kents were missing and presumed dead after OWAW but then they weren't and Jonathan had some weird secret that they never dealt with and then they had an RV and a stupid reference to the SHAZAM tv show and
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Feb 28, 2020 19:28
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Barry Convex posted:so if the newest rumors about 5G are accurate, it sounds like it might be getting reworked into more of an All-New All-Different Marvel kind of thing, and that they might be backing away from the more drastic changes to the sliding timeline I mean I wasn't the biggest fan of it but it sounds like they're just watering it down enough so they can easily disregard it in six months if that's the case.
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Feb 28, 2020 19:54
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Let's see if they still go through with Luke Fox is the new Batman.
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Feb 28, 2020 20:13
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That one seems like less of a hard sell because there's 30 other Batman related books where the "real" Batman can fight the Batman Who Laughs or any of the Jokers 3.
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Feb 28, 2020 20:20
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I think that choice is questionable just because when you think about who should take over as Batman, Luke Fox ranks around 38th. That and he's an incredibly bland character.
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Feb 28, 2020 21:03
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Darth Nat posted:I think that choice is questionable just because when you think about who should take over as Batman, Luke Fox ranks around 38th. That and he's an incredibly bland character. Agreed. Honestly it would have been better to have Duke get the role as a Terry McGinnis kind of character. Luke for me was the weakest part of Tynion's team.
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Feb 28, 2020 21:16
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Madkal posted:Let's see if they still go through with Luke Fox is the new Batman. This will do fine, Jon as Superman will do fine. The real issue is once you get into the small books. People barely want a Carter Hall Hawkman book, I can't imagine one with just some guy doing well. I am a huge Aquaman fan, so I would be interested in one about the black Aqualad from a few years ago. One about Tempest... Maybe? But to expect people to really want is new characters is a gamble. I can imagine it being done well, but I don't trust DC to not botch it or just chicken out in less than 6 months. Age of Heroes is the closest thing to what 5G was supposed to be, and that says a lot.
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Feb 28, 2020 21:35
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How Wonderful! posted:I like it when superheroes have a healthy relationship with their parents to bounce off of and I think it opens up more storytelling opportunities than the orphan thing. It's true. As somebody said, thus far half the fun of Priest's Deathstroke is watching the world's greatest assassin be extremely bad at being part of a family. doomrider7 posted:Post-Crisis was heart attack and in the Donner's Pa is dead, but Ma is alive. Killing them off just feels lazy as all loving hell since TAS has shown that it can work and you can bounce stuff off them really well. Same with some of the stories Post-Crisis. If it's wrong to want for the Kents to have Martian Manhunter over for Christmas, I don't want to be right. 
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Feb 28, 2020 22:26
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Dawgstar posted:It's true. As somebody said, thus far half the fun of Priest's Deathstroke is watching the world's greatest assassin be extremely bad at being part of a family. That was a really good episode. One thing I liked in the comics with the character was that they made him feel home and at peace on Earth. Like there was still emotions about life on Mars and the family he lost and how he lost them(Martian Civil War Pre-Crisis and plague in Post-Crisis), but he always came off as considering Earth his new home. I also liked that he had several secret identities of different genders and ethnicities.
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Feb 29, 2020 02:25
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Dawgstar posted:Did anybody read Priest's Deathstroke run? The little bit I've seen here and there has me kind of tempted. I’m glad Didio is gone, remember how he protected the known sexual harasser on the Superman office for years?
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Feb 29, 2020 05:13
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X-O posted:That one seems like less of a hard sell because there's 30 other Batman related books where the "real" Batman can fight the Batman Who Laughs or any of the Jokers 3. Yeah but they could have done that years ago and keep DickBats with OG Batman but they didn't do that for some reason. Not keeping DickBats around was a crime.
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Feb 29, 2020 05:36
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Codependent Poster posted:Yeah but they could have done that years ago and keep DickBats with OG Batman but they didn't do that for some reason. Thank you 52. Also they said he was Batman and also he wasn’t. Early 52 had no idea what it was doing.
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Feb 29, 2020 05:39
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Yeah, they really wanted to have their cake and eat it too with the New 52 reboot. Big important stories are still part of the canon, unless they aren't. It was kinda weird to me that when they brought back Barbara Gordon as Batgirl they made it explicit in the first issue that The Killing Joke happened and she got some new magical surgery that fixed her spine, but in retrospect that at least was a pretty good decision, because otherwise we'd all just spend the entire time wondering when some rear end in a top hat writer was going to cripple her again.
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Feb 29, 2020 09:28
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Skwirl posted:Yeah, they really wanted to have their cake and eat it too with the New 52 reboot. Big important stories are still part of the canon, unless they aren't. Honestly, in my opinion they should have just retconned that out completely if they weren't going to have her be Oracle, considering it's basically the posterchild for Women in Refrigerators and even Moore disavowed what happened to Babs in that story. But I guess it's too ~iconic~.
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Feb 29, 2020 09:37
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Yvonmukluk posted:Honestly, in my opinion they should have just retconned that out completely if they weren't going to have her be Oracle, considering it's basically the posterchild for Women in Refrigerators and even Moore disavowed what happened to Babs in that story. But I guess it's too ~iconic~. I think if they had retconned it away, some writer would have wanted to do a new version of it that would end up being even worse, and considering the various horrible things they've done to other members of the Bat Family since the start of New 52 I do not have confidence that the editors would have said "no, we're not doing that."
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Feb 29, 2020 10:03
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I really dislike how so how many of the characters with visible disabilities in comics have to have a whole dramatic backstory about it. I've said it before, but there are dozens of reasons why a young woman would be in a wheel-chair and none of them involve the Joker or implied sexual assault. Just having her be a person with cerebral palsy or MS or something would remove a very dated and unappealing bit of canon while maintaining the cool and unique figure of the wheelchair-using superhero data wizard, depending on what condition you could still give her a stint when she was younger as Batwoman, and it would be nice representation for a demographic that does not get much of it.
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Feb 29, 2020 15:14
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That made me look up how Wendy White was put into a wheelchair and I had successfully managed to block out the cause was "mauled by Wonder Dog." Thanks, Geoff.
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Feb 29, 2020 16:41
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Dawgstar posted:That made me look up how Wendy White was put into a wheelchair and I had successfully managed to block out the cause was "mauled by Wonder Dog." I remember people hating that due to how cruel and mean spirited it was. Like yeah it was campy shlock, but people still had a soft spot for Super Friends and the character of Marvin, Wendy, and Wonder Dog.
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Feb 29, 2020 16:52
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While that whole Wendy/Marvin/Wonder Dog sequence happened in Teen Titans in the era of comics where Johns was ascendant, he'd been off the book for about twenty issues by then, Sean McKeever wrote that storyline. Of course this was also during the era of Editorially Driven DC, so it's entirely possible it wasn't his idea.
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Feb 29, 2020 17:02
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Teen titans was such a joke after infinite crisis. Lots of cool characters just killed off for no good reason.
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Feb 29, 2020 17:30
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Edge & Christian posted:While that whole Wendy/Marvin/Wonder Dog sequence happened in Teen Titans in the era of comics where Johns was ascendant, he'd been off the book for about twenty issues by then, Sean McKeever wrote that storyline. Wasn't this also during the era of one of the multiple times Superboy went evil and crazy/Titans were getting amputated?
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Feb 29, 2020 18:03
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Mr Hootington posted:Teen titans was such a joke after infinite crisis. Lots of cool characters just killed off for no good reason. 
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Feb 29, 2020 18:19
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The Face and One-Face team up, call me DC I have a pitch ready
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Feb 29, 2020 18:22
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And he was a great joke character until they wrote words for him.
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Feb 29, 2020 18:30
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Jiro posted:Wasn't this also during the era of one of the multiple times Superboy went evil and crazy/Titans were getting amputated? I believe so yes.
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Feb 29, 2020 19:33
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Jiro posted:Wasn't this also during the era of one of the multiple times Superboy went evil and crazy/Titans were getting amputated? It depends on what we're counting as eras. Teen Titans got a big relaunch under Geoff Johns in the summer of 2003, essentially replacing Young Justice. Johns almost immediately introduced a plot point he had proposed in an old Superboy fan letter, that the half of Superboy's DNA that isn't Kal-El's shouldn't be a Cadmus scientist's, but in fact be THE EVIL GENES OF LEX LUTHOR. So Superboy found out about this and started worrying that his EVIL GENES will make him turn evil right down to his EVIL JEANS. In the second year of Johns's Titans run, he introduced THE TITANS OF TOMORROW, from an evil future where Superboy's evil genes made him become the evil son of evil Luthor, not the good son of good Superman. Seeing this evil future made Superboy even more concerned about his evil genes. Then in the third year of Titans, it turns out that Lex Luthor had put a secret switch in his evil genes that made Superboy an evil sleeper agent under his control. He fought and tried to kill the Teen Titans on behalf of his evil dad Lex. He shakes his evil gene brainwashing, but is still shaken and goes to live on the Kent family farm. This is when Superboy Prime shows up and tries to kill the 'fake' Superboy. Superboy Prime starts ripping people's arms off here. Superboy dies trying to stop Superboy Prime's evil plan, but not before making a point to lose his virginity to his girlfriend Wonder Girl. And then immediately dying. Which I believe turned into a pattern for young heroes in the DCU. Then ONE YEAR LATER happens and Wendy & Marvin are introduced (by Geoff Johns) and Tim Drake wants to resurrect Superboy but is also making out with Superboy's girlfriend Wonder Girl on top of the tube with his corpse in it. By the end of the year the team is fighting the EVIL TITANS EAST which includes Match, who is a clone of Superboy who is evil but is also a Bizarro now I guess and might have somehow been involved with Robin's makeout sessions on top of his buddy Superboy's corpse? He dies and Geoff Johns leaves the book to Adam Beechen who fucks around with some Amazon Attacks tie-ins for a few issues and leaves. Sean McKeever takes over with #50 and first big storyline is the return of the TITANS OF TOMORROW featuring Future Evil Genes Superboy, who goes super evil and is killed by future Evil Robin. This leads the spectre of Robin being a bad friend/boyfriend to making Wonder Girl and Robin break up. Then a year after that Wonderdog turns into a demon and eats Wendy and Marvin. So it's all within like five years of comics, but about a year away from the most recent Evil Superboy attack.
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Feb 29, 2020 19:34
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Edge & Christian posted:It depends on what we're counting as eras. I knew some of this stuff like the Lex genes and Tim making out with 2nd Wonder Girl, but JESUS is that terrible poo poo.
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Feb 29, 2020 19:40
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Sure you could have a wheelchair wizard with MS, but that sounds more like a plucky sidekick than a well rounded, fleshed out character. There's something inherently more appealing about a former superhero who simply refuses to give up just because they can't put on their tights anymore. Professor Xavier has been in and out of his wheelchair multiple times and no one cares anymore. People cared about Barbara Gordon getting out of the wheelchair because of what happened to her and what that meant. The Killing Joke was Barbara Gordon's second and better origin story. Batgirl being the daughter of the commissioner, the partner of Batman and the girlfriend of Robin was re-contextualized as Oracle, the hero in the wheelchair who didn't give up. You had twenty years of superhero antics before tragedy struck and her life was changed forever. That is a crucial character beat. Oracle was a much stronger character because of The Killing Joke. Babs was popular before, but look at how many people were upset about losing Oracle versus how many people were excited to get this particular iteration of Batgirl back. You can't just swap that out with polio and expect people to go with it. What's that Batman? Your parents were brutally gunned down in front of you when you were eight? HOW TRAGIC. Too bad that's not what happened. No, it turns out they went to a charity function and died because they both had an unknown shellfish allergy. Readers will care about Aquaman now that he's your new arch-nemesis. Still sad, but now it gives representation for people with food allergies. What's that Spider-Man? Your Uncle Ben was gunned down by a robber you didn't stop earlier in the night? HOW TRAGIC. Too bad that's not what happened. No, Uncle Ben died at home in bed due to complications from diabetes on account of all the syrup on those wheatcakes. Aunt May, you sinister silver-haired bitch. Still sad, but now it gives representation for people with diabetes. And if there's anything worse then people claiming Batman kills Joker at the end it's people claiming Joker sexually assaulted Barbara. It's already messed up why do you need to make poo poo up to make it worse? Was she assaulted? Yes, clearly. Not only was she shot, but he took naked photos of her against her will. Was she raped? No, clearly. We're talking about Alan Moore here. If Alan Moore wants to write about rape then he'll write about rape. At the end when the Joker is defeated he comments "What are you waiting for? I shot a helpless woman and tortured an old man." If there was any hint of sexual assault it would've been "What are you waiting for? I raped a cripple and tortured an old man." Again, Alan Moore gives zero fucks. The doctor talking to Batman mentions her paralysis, but nothing about sexual assault. Go ahead Batman this woman who was just shot, stripped, photographed and raped will be totally cool with us leaving her alone with a large, intimidating and unidentified man who immediately touches her while she's asleep. We know Barbara and Bruce know each other, but the doctor doesn't.
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Feb 29, 2020 19:49
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Man, what did DC do to poor Sean McKeever? After Gravity, Nomad: Girl Without a World, Young Allies and probably other things I'm forgetting* you'd think he would be The Guy to take over a book of teens and twentysomethings. Then he takes over Ttians, which I had forgotten, which featured things like Ravager kicking her one night stand out of bed with 'get out before I cut it off.' Which I haven't.  *Sentinel? Maybe Sentinel.
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Feb 29, 2020 19:52
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DC Editorial plus Titans being a cursed franchise happened to poor Sean McKeever. This was during the era when "In this issue... A TITAN DIES!" appeared on covers, as if it was meant to be a selling point. It's pretty amazing how the cartoon had built Teen Titans to become a premiere DC franchise, and then they completely drove it into the ground and it never recovered.
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Feb 29, 2020 20:10
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Dawgstar posted:Man, what did DC do to poor Sean McKeever? After Gravity, Nomad: Girl Without a World, Young Allies and probably other things I'm forgetting* you'd think he would be The Guy to take over a book of teens and twentysomethings. Then he takes over Ttians, which I had forgotten, which featured things like Ravager kicking her one night stand out of bed with 'get out before I cut it off.' Which I haven't. according to Matt Wilson, not long after McKeever's tenure at DC, Wilson tried to contact him for an interview about writing comics and McKeever's response was "Sorry, but I'm no longer a part of that industry." considering that McKeever recently started writing comics again, you have to wonder if his experience at DC legitimately made Sean McKeever quit writing comics all together for a while.
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Feb 29, 2020 20:13
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Alaois posted:according to Matt Wilson, not long after McKeever's tenure at DC, Wilson tried to contact him for an interview about writing comics and McKeever's response was "Sorry, but I'm no longer a part of that industry." Didn't he go back to Marvel for at bit after he left DC though?
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Feb 29, 2020 20:16
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This is a lotta fuckin words to say you're personally not interested in seeing a disabled person in a starring role
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Feb 29, 2020 20:23
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Checking out McKeever's Marvel stuff (frickin Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane) I wonder if he had a mandate to make Titans darker, he pitched Wonder Dog going evil as a joke and editorial was like "yeah, do it."
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Feb 29, 2020 20:36
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Heathen posted:Sure you could have a wheelchair wizard with MS, but that sounds more like a plucky sidekick than a well rounded, fleshed out character. There's something inherently more appealing about a former superhero who simply refuses to give up just because they can't put on their tights anymore. People very often develop MS in their adulthoods, you could very easily write a Babs who spends her teens and early 20s as Batgirl before being diagnosed. It's also a super weird and insulting take to say that people who are disabled because of normal quotidian illnesses aren't suitable to be "well rounded, fleshed out characters." Learning to live with a serious disability isn't just some passive thing-- it's a whole process that everybody experiences differently and has just as much potential for dynamic and interesting storytelling as "a clown shot me." quote:And if there's anything worse then people claiming Batman kills Joker at the end it's people claiming Joker sexually assaulted Barbara. It's already messed up why do you need to make poo poo up to make it worse? Was she assaulted? Yes, clearly. Not only was she shot, but he took naked photos of her against her will. Was she raped? No, clearly. We're talking about Alan Moore here. If Alan Moore wants to write about rape then he'll write about rape. At the end when the Joker is defeated he comments "What are you waiting for? I shot a helpless woman and tortured an old man." If there was any hint of sexual assault it would've been "What are you waiting for? I raped a cripple and tortured an old man." Again, Alan Moore gives zero fucks. The doctor talking to Batman mentions her paralysis, but nothing about sexual assault. Go ahead Batman this woman who was just shot, stripped, photographed and raped will be totally cool with us leaving her alone with a large, intimidating and unidentified man who immediately touches her while she's asleep. We know Barbara and Bruce know each other, but the doctor doesn't. That's sexual assault, like, please, if you shoot someone and take naked photos of them against their will that's sexual assault. Also Moore himself has acknowledged the element of sexual violation in the story. From a Goodreads Q+A: Alan Moore posted:Actually, with The Killing Joke, I have never really liked it much as a work – although I of course remember Brian Bolland’s art as being absolutely beautiful – simply because I thought it was far too violent and sexualised a treatment for a simplistic comic book character like Batman and a regrettable misstep on my part. How Wonderful! fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Feb 29, 2020 |
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Feb 29, 2020 21:09
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site posted:This is a lotta fuckin words to say you're personally not interested in seeing a disabled person in a starring role Literally the opposite. Batgirl: okay Oracle: better How Wonderful! posted:That's sexual assault, like, please, if you shoot someone and take naked photos of them against their will that's sexual assault. How Wonderful! posted:implied sexual assault. Why did you say implied? Her being shot and photographed were both explicit. The part you quoted has me clearly state she was assaulted.
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Feb 29, 2020 21:21
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Heathen posted:Literally the opposite. Heathen posted:Sure you could have a wheelchair wizard with MS, but that sounds more like a plucky sidekick than a well rounded, fleshed out character. There's something inherently more appealing about a former superhero who simply refuses to give up just because they can't put on their tights anymore. im confused do you not know what words mean or are you just really fuckin stupid site fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Feb 29, 2020 |
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Feb 29, 2020 21:39
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Heathen posted:Why did you say implied? Her being shot and photographed were both explicit. The part you quoted has me clearly state she was assaulted. I'm not sure why I said "implied," that was honestly thoughtless on my part. I'm not a very smart person and I often have a bad habit of just reflexively chucking in an extra adjective for prosody. I shouldn't have said implied because it's right on the page. I'm also, I have to confess, confused about your point now because I read your first post as implying that you do not think TKJ is a story about sexual violence. I'm thinking of the bolded bits in particular: Heathen posted:if there's anything worse then people claiming Batman kills Joker at the end it's people claiming Joker sexually assaulted Barbara. It's already messed up why do you need to make poo poo up to make it worse? Was she assaulted? Yes, clearly. Not only was she shot, but he took naked photos of her against her will. Was she raped? No, clearly. We're talking about Alan Moore here. If Alan Moore wants to write about rape then he'll write about rape. At the end when the Joker is defeated he comments "What are you waiting for? I shot a helpless woman and tortured an old man." If there was any hint of sexual assault it would've been "What are you waiting for? I raped a cripple and tortured an old man." Again, Alan Moore gives zero fucks. The doctor talking to Batman mentions her paralysis, but nothing about sexual assault. Go ahead Batman this woman who was just shot, stripped, photographed and raped will be totally cool with us leaving her alone with a large, intimidating and unidentified man who immediately touches her while she's asleep. We know Barbara and Bruce know each other, but the doctor doesn't. So I guess I'm not actually sure what you're arguing for or against here anymore?
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Feb 29, 2020 21:44
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