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tbf we all hate hungarians, that's only rational e. wow what a snipe
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Mar 2, 2020 00:19
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HorseBodyInspector posted:I was thinking if I post it, but here I am, with few facts about "centre-left coalition" which lost election: I mean yeah, they are kinda poo poo in various ways, especially with the corruption as I pointed out too. But then you look at the right-wing opposition, and, well. e: For one it's not like the opposition weren't the ones actually doing the voting down of the children benefit expansion for hosed reasons. And they might have suicided by appealing to the right-wing voters, but it's not really a win that they were replaced by the actual right. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Mar 2, 2020 |
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Mar 2, 2020 01:25
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Time to re-negotiate our warehousing / concentration camp deal with beloved democratic leader Erdogan, so he's turning open the valves and the Greeks are throwing a fit: quote:Greece says it will stop accepting asylum requests amid migrant crisis Can't wait for the fash to combine this with Corona Virus hysteria and turn these poor people in to 'walking disease factories" Bonus Manfred Weber Is A oval office: quote:"When the EU Commission meets this week, the focus should not be on the pictures of Frans Timmermans with Greta Thunberg, but on the concerns of millions of Europeans about the protection of our external border,” Weber told Politico Junior G-man fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Mar 2, 2020 |
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Mar 2, 2020 13:15
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apparently they're shooting less-lethal ammunition and teargas and poo poo at these people with at least one confirmed death what a loving way to go
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Mar 2, 2020 13:19
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I'm not surprised. And the worst is that there are Golden Dawn lynch mobs waiting for them if they do manage to pass through the border guards. Of course the situation in the refugee camps is extremely bleak, too, they're massively overcrowded and severely underfunded. But of course if there were EU funding to make the situation less poo poo in them, it would be a "moral hazard", according to politicians on the other side of the continent.
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Mar 2, 2020 14:24
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This would have been a literal non-issue if the EU followed a humane immigration/refugee policy. It's only an issue because we've been convinced that foreigners are bad and that the state is fundamentally incapable of undertaking any serious crisis management project. Seriously, the fact that these are the same states that built the Suez canal and were able to materially prosecute wars that killed millions, that are now acting as though re-settling a few hundred thousand people is some kind of impossible issue is blowing my loving mind. Same countries that at some point were considering the feasibility of maybe damming the entire loving mediterranean.
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Mar 2, 2020 14:40
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YF-23 posted:This would have been a literal non-issue if the EU followed a humane immigration/refugee policy. It's only an issue because we've been convinced that foreigners are bad and that the state is fundamentally incapable of undertaking any serious crisis management project. The difference is that we wanted to build canals and have wars that killed millions whereas we don't want refugees because that would involve helping non-white people (or anyone at all)
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Mar 2, 2020 14:50
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YF-23 posted:This would have been a literal non-issue if the EU followed a humane immigration/refugee policy. It's only an issue because we've been convinced that foreigners are bad and that the state is fundamentally incapable of undertaking any serious crisis management project. this, i think, is literally down to financialisation. the idea is that state intervention has a fairly large opportunity cost baked into it, where you have to stake any given euro invested in a project as an euro not invested somewhere else. since we've institutionalised most of the major functions and don't really need to do really heavy lifting any longer, those muscles of the state have withered away - the world order basically just ticks along, aided by the world bank and the imf and the who and whatever, because these big things aren't cost-effective and really the role of the state is to administer a set of rules, not actually do anything. one sees it in discussions of infrastructure, where building a new train line or whatever has to be justified as socioeconomically efficient use of funds rather than be an actual political project. this helps drive investment monomania around capitals, and it makes any actual challenges we face basically impossible to deal with, because it violates the role of the government to be more than basically bean-counters and handmaidens to the infinite wisdom of the great market
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Mar 2, 2020 14:50
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Andrast posted:The difference is that we wanted to build canals and have wars that killed millions whereas we don't want refugees i think that we're going to see an incredibly inadequate response to this pandemic we're facing as well, which is as unambiguously Bad as you can get - nobody outside of a handful of vampires actually profits from this sort of thing, certainly not enough to be able to influence ruling-class consensus on the matter. china seems to have locked down half their goddamn country, for instance. that is not going to happen anywhere in the west, even if it needed to - the stock markets would completely collapse.
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Mar 2, 2020 14:54
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YF-23 posted:This would have been a literal non-issue if the EU followed a humane immigration/refugee policy. It's only an issue because we've been convinced that foreigners are bad and that the state is fundamentally incapable of undertaking any serious crisis management project. It's not inability. It's unwillingness and hostility. We're not doing it because the European electorates keep voting for people who say they won't do it. The peoples of Europe will rather let these people rot in refugee camps than let them in. It's not apathetic politicians or incompetent bureaucrats. It's deliberate decisions driven by popular votes. It's who we are.
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Mar 2, 2020 15:14
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I mean perhaps the politicians and the rich influence the people through the media and then the people vote for the politicians, and it all cycles in on itself.
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Mar 2, 2020 15:25
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The media just spoon feeds uninformed and fearful voters blatant right wing rhetoric without fact checking it. Then uninformed voters become scared and vote for the ones who will protect them or say they have easy solutions and hey waddayaknow it's the right wing that has them
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Mar 2, 2020 15:32
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OwlFancier posted:I mean perhaps the politicians and the rich influence the people through the media and then the people vote for the politicians, and it all cycles in on itself. Yes, this isn't just racist people voting for racist things. It's a complete lack of faith in the ability of the state to undertake large-scale projects. It's the same reason that our response to the climate crisis is bullshit like tax incentives for installing solar panels rather than a direct construction of renewable (or nuclear) infrastructure.
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Mar 2, 2020 15:32
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By the way if there was any doubt whether individual countries are more willing to help refugees - or what would happen if all borders in the EU would be closed again - there's a nice video in the other thread where Greece coast guard special forces dudes literally shoot at refugee boats filled with women and children. If it is each country for itself, and in particular, Greece against the wave of refugees, then these people are just gonna get got at the Greek border. I am now thinking the EU and its ability (on paper) to distribute refugees is the only hope we have of fixing the situation. All EU countries should take on as many refugees as they can. In theory. Of course the EU will not fix the situation, because neither France nor Germany want to rock the boat, and the UK felt it necessary to increase the instability of this union because they are cunts as well. If Germany demands everyone to take in these refugees, we'll have XYZ-xits all over the place. But whatever, maybe we should go down swinging. What's this sham anyway if we get bossed around by garbage countries like Poland, who have been doing nothing but taking the majority of EU help funds while contributing nothing. Honestly, if the EU is the way it is now, there is no benefit. Soldiers are still shooting at refugee boats, and borders are still effectively closed all over the place. While we pay these pseudo dictators. Just do the thing Merkel. Who cares if it ends the EU. At least its not this. Distribute all the refugees, let all those Eastern cunts leave, re-introduce the Deutsche Mark or some sort of Franc-Mark currency, and economically power the Southeast into submission, which worked out so beautifully for decades. Let them enjoy their own currencies again, which will be worth nothing and be pegged to the German/French currency by necessity. gently caress them, they deserve it. Haramstufe Rot fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Mar 2, 2020 |
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Mar 2, 2020 15:33
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The idea that germany needs to subjugate the rest of europe because the rest of europe is full of inferior races who are too fascist is certainly a funny one.
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Mar 2, 2020 15:40
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OwlFancier posted:The idea that germany needs to subjugate the rest of europe because the rest of europe is full of inferior races who are too fascist is certainly a funny one. They've been doing it throughout the debt crisis for the countries that are too poor anyway, it wouldn't be anything new.
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Mar 2, 2020 15:42
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YF-23 posted:Yes, this isn't just racist people voting for racist things. It's a complete lack of faith in the ability of the state to undertake large-scale projects. It's the same reason that our response to the climate crisis is bullshit like tax incentives for installing solar panels rather than a direct construction of renewable (or nuclear) infrastructure. defunding public services to the point of them being ineffectual or even breaking down completely is an integral part of the capitalist/neoliberal propaganda circlejerk. "see, state can't do poo poo, let's privatize this" the fake inability to feed and house poor people and/or refugees/migrants is also a part of the same policies, because liberals are just fascist with lgbt flags.
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Mar 2, 2020 15:44
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OwlFancier posted:The idea that germany needs to subjugate the rest of europe because the rest of europe is full of inferior races who are too fascist is certainly a funny one. Germany needs to insist on the supposed values of the EU, which includes not shooting people at the border and taking in refugees. If that ain't happening (and this includes the fact that Germany isn't doing it itself), then the EU is worth nothing. This has nothing to do with subjugation. Just do a combined France-German (and whoever wants) exit. Let every country do whatever lovely version of a country they wanna run. See how that turns out for them. How can you not be enraged by these events and be angry at everyone, including Germany? I mean gently caress this, seriously. They are shooting it literal refugees. Nobody gives a poo poo.
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Mar 2, 2020 15:46
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I mean what is the EU for if not making rich people richer? Or failing that, what is it for if not for Europe to form a united front against the rest of the world for its own benefit? With the most powerful countries at the reins, of course. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Mar 2, 2020 |
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Mar 2, 2020 15:50
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YF-23 posted:we've been convinced that the state is fundamentally incapable of undertaking any serious crisis management project. This cannot be overstated. We're in a situation where our labour pool is rapidly aging to the point that it's becoming a real issue. At the same time, millions of people who are on average a hell of a lot younger are trying to come to our countries. Obviously there's challenges, as they don't know our language, and there's cultural differences. So the question is if we can educate a couple million people. If only the state had some kind of experience with this type of challenge. If only there was something we could do here to fix this problem. Nope, can't think of anything, let's start killing them. Liberals have successfully managed to atrophy away people's belief that the state can actually do things. Edit: And they've done it, of course, by deliberately loving up every government ministry and responsibility they could get their filthy hands on and then pointing at the mess they just made and saying "See? Government can do nothing right!" Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Mar 2, 2020 |
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Mar 2, 2020 15:56
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Haramstufe Rot posted:By the way if there was any doubt whether individual countries are more willing to help refugees - or what would happen if all borders in the EU would be closed again - there's a nice video in the other thread where Greece coast guard special forces dudes literally shoot at refugee boats filled with women and children. If it is each country for itself, and in particular, Greece against the wave of refugees, then these people are just gonna get got at the Greek border. right now it's not every country for itself, it's greece acting as the EU enforcer which is way better
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Mar 2, 2020 16:04
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Haramstufe Rot posted:Germany needs to insist on the supposed values of the EU, which includes not shooting people at the border and taking in refugees. Buddy, this is who we are. When a social and economic system asserts itself and its continued sustenance is only insured by constant human suffering and predation, then the whole populace and its decision makers only knows how to work and approach problems by the framework of the system.hence, all the human suffering and predation. If only someone had seen this coming or a entire school of knowledgeable had postulated this, but alas. Socialism or barbarism was never a future choice "choose socialism or we'll have barbarism", it's " choose socialism, because what we have IS barbarism"
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Mar 2, 2020 16:09
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the EU's values are and have always been a weird chauvinistic managerial liberalism. that people imagine this to be some sort project of internationalist solidarity is just completely demented and i have no idea how this conviction has managed to infiltrate otherwise reasonable doctrines
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Mar 2, 2020 16:13
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and, to reiterate: everything greece does here, it does as the EU's enforcer. when italy tried to do the right thing they were hung out to dry, so they stopped trying. the camps, the borders, this poo poo is on all of us within the schengen area, and we have no real way of fighting it because the battle lines are so far away
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Mar 2, 2020 16:16
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Like, this is the endgame.hand wringing by the supposed adults in the room at how awful things are and how rude those border countries are and golly we would totally do something about it but the powerhouse of huh Hungary is preventing us from doing something,oh gosh oh golly. It's kabuki theater. Gunning immigrants at the borders while the status quo remains but you can feel vaguely sad while nothing fundamentally changes is the whole ball game.its what the EU is supposed to be doing. So good job, working as intended.
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Mar 2, 2020 16:26
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Replace EU with the governments (and populations) in the "developed" world and I agree. Seriously, is Japan which rejects staggering >99% of asylum cases any better? Is Korea which has massive problems with rampant nationalism, classism and racism, to the point of having separate beaches for "foreigners" and widespread distrust that goes far past simple discrimination to anyone not perceived as Korean? Or is it Australia which redirects all refugee ships heading for it onto islands where said refugees are treated lower than dirt, that is if the ships don't capsize in the process which is considered an acceptable cost? Is it the US with it's annual regional limits for refugees in direct contravention of international treaties, to say nothing of the various other restrictions and ill-treatment they engage in? Is it Britain who left the EU because even the very little it did to help refugees was far too much for them, with literal nazi posters used by the leave campaign except with refugees instead of jews? Where is the compassionate approach of the englightened western liberal states that would be unleashed if the shackles of the EU tying them up were released? The answer is nowhere, if anything the EU at least pays lip service to some international ideals unlike the developed countries which go at it alone. It's far from enough, but also better than what I have no doubt countries left to their own devices would be up to. And of course, the vast majority of developing nations manage to be even more garbage. Though there's a handful of exceptions here and there, but they often come with their own nationalistic rhetoric to justify them. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Mar 2, 2020 |
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Mar 2, 2020 16:27
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Private Speech posted:Replace EU with the governments (and populations) in the "developed" world and I agree. hrm yes tear gas and rubber bullets is certainly the best we can hope for
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Mar 2, 2020 16:30
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Haramstufe Rot posted:Of course the EU will not fix the situation, because neither France nor Germany want to rock the boat, and the UK felt it necessary to increase the instability of this union because they are cunts as well. If Germany demands everyone to take in these refugees, we'll have XYZ-xits all over the place. France is already rocking the boat on other issues, without much success. Personally I think most of the problem will come from the Frugal Four, those countries that have decided that actually the EU should get less funds and do less things, because gently caress you got mine. Here's a chart from 2018. Vertically you have how much a country receives/gives to the EU (net recipient are up, net givers are down), and horizontally you have how rich the countries are (in GDP, the farthest to the right, the richer), both values being per capita. It's pretty interesting how most countries end up being roughly in a line. What's interesting is to look at the countries that aren't on that line. For example, Bulgaria, Croatia, Romania are quite behind, they would need to receive a lot more funds to join the line. On the other hand, Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands and to a lesser extent Austria are comfortably ahead and they would need to spend a lot more to be aligned.  Belgium and especially Luxembourg are massive outliers there because of the disproportionate amount of EU institutions they host. Ireland is an outlier because it's a tax haven so its GDP is grossly inflated by having multinational companies pretending their activity happens on the green island instead of where it actually happens.
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Mar 2, 2020 16:31
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V. Illych L. posted:hrm yes tear gas and rubber bullets is certainly the best we can hope for I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying you'd be lucky if it were just that if the US were in a similar position. So maybe lets try to work together (or individually, since the EU does not prevent states from taking in refugees if they so wish, whatsoever) to solve the problem.
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Mar 2, 2020 16:33
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the worst part of it is, i actually agree. i think a lot of our countries would be behaving like the greeks are. but, like, i could conceivably influence the norwegian line on this if it was norwegian troops making themselves murderers on my behalf. with the EU it's so far away and so completely out of anyone's control that you just sort of end up throwing your hands up and resigning to bullshit like "well, it's not like not killing innocent people is an option"
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Mar 2, 2020 16:33
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Well maybe campaign for Norway to take in refugees from Turkey directly. They could just do that, in fact some countries did do so in a limited fashion (including the accursed Britain, albeit it went from tens of thousands to a lot less in the end). I mean yeah it's harder to advocate for than if it were norwegians troops doing the atrocities, but the moral argument is the same.
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Mar 2, 2020 16:37
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Haramstufe Rot posted:Germany needs to insist on the supposed values of the EU, which includes not shooting people at the border and taking in refugees. LOL, Merkel did that once and the result was the CDU crumbling like a cold soufflé and passing deals with the Official Hitler Did Nothing Wrong Party. Ever since Merkel's "Wir Schaffen Das" blew up in her face, Germany's position has been "let's do nothing, except for preventing other people from attempting to do things, and just wait it out". There's a reason for that: doing things would cost money. And money exists so as to not be spent, it's the entire reason why it was created. Schwarze Null!
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Mar 2, 2020 16:43
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Private Speech posted:Well maybe campaign for Norway to take in refugees from Turkey directly. They could just do that, in fact some countries did do so in a limited fashion (including the accursed Britain, albeit it went from tens of thousands to a lot less in the end). i literally am and my organisation is making zero headway except locally some places it's not an issue in norway because, well, it's not our problem, since the hot border is between greece and turkey. we've been prioritising the fight to make our asylum processing less obviously hostile, and that's hard enough tbh
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Mar 2, 2020 16:47
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V. Illych L. posted:i literally am and my organisation is making zero headway except locally some places Lol yours too?ours are not so much hostile, but everything takes so much goddamn time, and there's no money. Seriously, the social workers supporting refugees are loving unsung heroes, EMT', fireman, social workers, let them run everything.
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Mar 2, 2020 16:56
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OwlFancier posted:I mean what is the EU for if not making rich people richer? Ensuring that only white people are allowed to live on the continent of course
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Mar 2, 2020 16:57
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:Lol yours too?ours are not so much hostile, but everything takes so much goddamn time, and there's no money. we've had the right-wing populists in government for the past six and a half years, and since norwegian immigration laws are about as tight as they can be without violating international conventions, they've made it as hard as possible to get here and made the asylum process just incredibly hostile and inneficient. they keep talking about integration etc, while literally cutting resources for that. the processing centres are run based on who can keep the most people for the least money while meeting some incredibly paltry minimums it's as though they're trying to create an underclass of people who hate and resent norwegian society it's loving infuriating
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Mar 2, 2020 16:59
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:Lol yours too?ours are not so much hostile, but everything takes so much goddamn time, and there's no money. Wanna bet that a large amount of those same EMTs, firemen and social workers vote for absolutely horrendous political parties? That's the real conundrum of our time, people should know better, but nope, more neoliberals get voted in, and if that fails, well let's just give it to the fash instead.
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Mar 2, 2020 17:00
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Orange Devil posted:Wanna bet that a large amount of those same EMTs, firemen and social workers vote for absolutely horrendous political parties? public sector workers are typically the left's most reliable voter base, and these groups are typically not high-income, so i'd take that bet tbh except insofar as, well, almost all parties suck poo poo of course
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Mar 2, 2020 17:01
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forkboy84 posted:Ensuring that only white people are allowed to live on the continent of course It's a lot more classist than racist. Non-white people are perfectly welcome, as long as they arrive on their private jet. They can even get instant citizenship if they have enough money to buy it. There are two kinds of people: billionaires, and those politicians don't care about.
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Mar 2, 2020 17:24
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I guess it's time to accept that our society has failed and all that lip service to human rights is a sham. But the disappointing thing isn't the EU institutions doing this. Because even the left wing posters here are now going: "well, if we do this, then everyone will swing to the right". What this says is simply that it's the entire population that operates on gently caress you, got mine. It doesn't matter if it is the EU, countries, counties or whoever. The people will not accept any Brown people or Muslims if that costs a couple of percent of GDP growth. There's no humanitarians here if it ain't easy and free. Erdogan was right to open the borders. At least we can't pretend anymore to have any sort of moral high ground.
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Mar 2, 2020 17:28
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