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While it's fair to be reticent about Kennedy theories, it's very well-known that women did get sent to mental institutions or forced into damaging psychiatric treatments just to control their behavior, or even to get them away from their husbands who were done with them. Nellie Bly's "Ten Days in a Madhouse" made more than clear that it wasn't just rumours.
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Mar 7, 2020 02:54
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Btw that Nellie Bly article is a loving pro read and available for free online.
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Mar 7, 2020 03:07
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Elfface posted:Does the tumour squish brain like a sponge and it expands back again, or do you have a baseball sized hollow in you now? it expanded back to normal within a few days, but there is a little scarring around where it was removed. no lightbulbs or metal plates unfortunately. StrixNebulosa posted:Well, I'm unnerved. Congratulations on being alive! thanks! Pigsfeet on Rye posted:Yeah, congratulations on living! Did you have any neurological deficits caused by the tumor? If so, did they recede after surgery? i was slowly/intermittently losing vision in my right eye, and i was constantly dizzy and weak. also had hella migraines. all that went away almost immediately. i still get minor headaches, and my neck tightens up real easily since they had to cut into the muscles to get to where the tumor was. packetmantis posted:That tumor story owns. Did you squirt people with your CSF tube (I hope not because that's unsanitary but it would still be funny) no and thankfully it never spilled while i was toting it around. it had to come with me to physical therapy and the bathroom, so my head was constantly cocked to the left. theres still a pocket of CSF under my skin at the surgery site. i think a mesh was used to cover the hole in my skull and the bone is supposed to close in over it, so essentially im leaking CSF under my scalp. its squishy, and i can make it "breathe" by flexing. I had it drained once last year, and my neurosurgeon shoved like a 400 gauge needle into it without anesthetic and kept scraping it against my skull until i screamed for him to stop. wont be doing that poo poo again, id rather deal with a lumpy head. i sleep on a donut since my head's too sensitive to lay back directly onto a pillow. i went to a foo fighters concert 2 weeks later. $150 floor seats; brain surgery or no, i was going to that concert. i was in the hospital for 9 days, total cost $225k+. i paid about $6300
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Mar 7, 2020 03:08
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The Lone Badger posted:Being medical waste they're probably not allowed to dump it down the sink though. sorry, missed this one. while it wasnt CSF, immediately after surgery i had another drain that siphoned off all the excess blood and whatnot from the surgery site. they straight dumped that poo poo into the toilet and flushed.
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Mar 7, 2020 03:11
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In mortician Caitlin Doughty's book Smoke Gets In Your Eyes, she talks about draining the blood out of a body and just washing it down the drain, the rationale being that all kinds of grosser stuff gets put into the sewer system all the time.
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Mar 7, 2020 04:58
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PetraCore posted:I mean, the argument isn't that she was healthy, because even that theory acknowledges likely mental illness. It's possible the Kennedys thought the lobotomy would help, and then it very much didn't. Like, as far as I understand, there wasn't really a lot of effective psychiatric medication at the time, so people got desperate. i agree with you here, but lobotomies at the time were pitched as a novel, rational way to cure or at least mitigate illness. turns out they suck poo poo and are horrible, but the framing around them was more oriented towards a radical treatment for the differently brained rather than the sort of patriarchical hobbling they came to be interpreted as retrospectively my interest is that we often view the sins of our ancestors as being insincere and reflecting anxieties of our time, when they frequently had a different value system and were trying to be as good as they could be, just with less knowledge. when rosemary kennedy was lobotomized, there was an idea that lobotomies might be a great way to alleviate the anxieties and troubles of mental nonconformance. turns out, lobotomies are horrifying. but it's a mistake to attribute our learned idea - lobotomies are horrifying - with the idea that lobotomizers of the time being horrifying, because they didn't know (until they did it a bunch) just how awful the idea really was. they had to be the people who did it to realize, hey, this is a garbage rear end idea, we should not do this
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Mar 7, 2020 05:39
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DemonDarkhorse posted:sorry, missed this one. while it wasnt CSF, immediately after surgery i had another drain that siphoned off all the excess blood and whatnot from the surgery site. they straight dumped that poo poo into the toilet and flushed. Score one for me  Also Jesus Christ, baseball sized.
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Mar 7, 2020 06:02
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Yeah, I think the thing to remember about lobotomies is that mental health care was about trying increasingly desperate measures until hopefully something kind of sort of worked. The hospitals were massively overcrowded because, thanks to tax oddities, counties were dumping their elderly and indigent into them as well as the actual mentally ill, because the state payed for that, and the counties had to pay if they stayed home. There were very few effective medications, and the ones that were used often had horrible side effects. Families were told that the absolute best thing they could do for their disabled children and family members was institutionalize and move on with their lives. "Treatments" in the 30s and 40s included putting people in giant centrifuges, insulin shock (overdosing patients with insulin and letting them sweat and shake it out, to the point of causing comas), deliberate infection with malaria (the fever was thought to be potentially curative), ice water shocks, electro-shock treatment, and pretty much mandatory sterilization, especially for women. Lobotomies seemed scientific and even humane. Patients became more docile and easily managed (because their brain functioning was severely impaired, obviously, but to some it was kinder than having someone locked in a room or chained to a bed for pretty much their whole life). It wasn't a long leap to use it with willful or disobedient women, or women whose husbands were tired of them and wanted them to go away.
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Mar 7, 2020 06:21
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Bonster posted:Yeah, I think the thing to remember about lobotomies is that mental health care was about trying increasingly desperate measures until hopefully something kind of sort of worked. The hospitals were massively overcrowded because, thanks to tax oddities, counties were dumping their elderly and indigent into them as well as the actual mentally ill, because the state payed for that, and the counties had to pay if they stayed home. There were very few effective medications, and the ones that were used often had horrible side effects. Families were told that the absolute best thing they could do for their disabled children and family members was institutionalize and move on with their lives. Brings a new meaning to that old line about the road to hell being paved with good intentions
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Mar 7, 2020 06:58
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StrixNebulosa posted:Well, I'm unnerved. Congratulations on being alive! Uhh I'm rather sure that DemonDarkhorse was the one unnerved here 
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Mar 7, 2020 08:30
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DemonDarkhorse posted:it expanded back to normal within a few days. I did not realize that that was a thing, holy poo poo luxury handset posted:i'm just deeply suspicious about any theorycrafting regarding the kennedy family, well known for never being the subject of hack paperback conspiracists and also a family famously untouched by the cruel hand of sudden trauma Brain trauma in particular
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Mar 7, 2020 09:55
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Bonster posted:deliberate infection with malaria (the fever was thought to be potentially curative) Crazily enough, this CAN work, but only for syphilis or other bacterial infections. The increased temperature brought about by the fever kills the bacteria, and is (in theory) controllable with quinine.
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Mar 7, 2020 10:26
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Samovar posted:Crazily enough, this CAN work, but only for syphilis or other bacterial infections. The increased temperature brought about by the fever kills the bacteria, and is (in theory) controllable with quinine. The idea of curing syphilis with malaria and then drinking gin and tonics till you're healthy is my kind of medicine.
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Mar 7, 2020 11:29
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The book My Lobotomy by Howard Dully is an amazing if  read. But also  because the dude showed incredible resilience despite having been abused by the medical and legal systems.
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Mar 7, 2020 17:34
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Bonster posted:electro-shock treatment This one they still use, the clinical term is "electro-convulsive therapy". 
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Mar 7, 2020 19:34
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Modern electroconvulsive therapy (assuming a decent doctor and not a grifter quack so ymmv) does have proven positive outcomes in very specific cases, and is done under general anesthesia as a last resort.
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Mar 7, 2020 19:51
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Isn't it sometimes used to reduce the occurrence of certain types of seizures too?
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Mar 7, 2020 21:14
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Not sure about seizures but I had a good run of it for depression that had been resistant to pretty much every med I'd tried. It worked in the short term (as described to me by my partner), but I think I may have just been too out of it to feel the reality of my situation as I now remember none of that time frame.
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Mar 7, 2020 21:26
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Yeah it should be done for specific seizures, not for what you through.
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Mar 7, 2020 21:33
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according to the mayo clinic, ECT is indeed used for severe and treatment resistant depression https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/electroconvulsive-therapy/about/pac-20393894
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Mar 7, 2020 22:14
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ECT is absolutely indicated for depression that's resisted other types of treatment though  And retrograde amnesia is a known risk.I find it conceptually unnerving just how little we understand about why certain psychiatric medications work. Like, when I was getting my neuroscience PhD I'd attend talks from a lab working on the use of ketamine microdosing to alleviate treatment-resistant depression. It definitely works but they were still doing a lot of basic exploratory science just to figure out what those tiny amount of ketamine actually did to the brain.
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Mar 7, 2020 22:16
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coronatae posted:ECT is absolutely indicated for depression that's resisted other types of treatment though Not only do we not understand their mechanism, pretty much all of them were discovered accidentally!
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Mar 7, 2020 22:26
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That's most of medical science. The cure for cancer will be discovered by some lab trying to 3Dprint a better testicle and needing to invent some kind of heat-resistant artifical pee. Or trying to get high.
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Mar 7, 2020 22:49
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coronatae posted:ECT is absolutely indicated for depression that's resisted other types of treatment though This is a whole lot of things in a variety of fields but especially anything to do with biological sciences. Its both really cool and really freaky.
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Mar 7, 2020 22:57
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Elfface posted:That's most of medical science. The cure for cancer will be discovered by some lab trying to 3Dprint a better testicle and needing to invent some kind of heat-resistant artifical pee. Sounds like I'm well on my way to getting a Nobel Prize for curing cancer.
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Mar 7, 2020 22:58
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xtal posted:Not only do we not understand their mechanism, pretty much all of them were discovered accidentally! There's this cycle of epilepsy/depression/migraine drugs that turn out to treat more than one of the three, or conversely were developed for one but were actually much more effective for one of the others.
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Mar 7, 2020 23:03
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ECT done in a modern manner is very useful for treatment-resistant depression, although the why is still kind of a question mark. The old style electro-shock therapy could cause convulsions so violent patients literally broke bones. It's an interesting anomaly that came out of that era, and is much gentler on the patient now. Still tough to deal with physically, but better than intractible, severe depression.
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Mar 7, 2020 23:43
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AlbieQuirky posted:The book My Lobotomy by Howard Dully is an amazing if Also, here's Irving Wallace's 1951 piece, The Operation of Last Resort, written for the Saturday Evening Post. It was one of first mainstream critical looks at lobotomies. The surgery here, though, was done as a last ditch fix for depression and anxiety. The original title to the piece was apparently They Cut Away His Conscience.
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Mar 8, 2020 03:41
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Elfface posted:That's most of medical science. The cure for cancer will be discovered by some lab trying to 3Dprint a better testicle and needing to invent some kind of heat-resistant artifical pee. Viagra was initially intended to be a treatment for angina. People popping boners was a side effect.
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Mar 8, 2020 20:38
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We wouldn't have a ton of cool ancillary poo poo without the space program either, I think things like MRIs wouldn't exist if we hadn't tried to go to the moon in the 60's. Granted, the space program wasn't a terrible thing with unexpected benefits but it's not unheard of.
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Mar 8, 2020 20:47
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Bonster posted:Yeah, I think the thing to remember about lobotomies is that mental health care was about trying increasingly desperate measures until hopefully something kind of sort of worked. The hospitals were massively overcrowded because, thanks to tax oddities, counties were dumping their elderly and indigent into them as well as the actual mentally ill, because the state payed for that, and the counties had to pay if they stayed home. There were very few effective medications, and the ones that were used often had horrible side effects. Families were told that the absolute best thing they could do for their disabled children and family members was institutionalize and move on with their lives. EDIT: One of my favorite highly-specific actually effective historical treatments is smoking to treat tuberculosis, since the smoke helps... kill the stuff infesting the lungs, I guess? The downside is you've spent your period of rehabilitation chain-smoking and now you're super addicted.
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Mar 8, 2020 21:03
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SacrificialGoat posted:Viagra was initially intended to be a treatment for angina. People popping boners was a side effect. Yup. Went to school in the town where it was invented. The school's science building was offically the Pfizer building. The lab is all-but shuttered now. It's a textbook example of corporate 'gratitude' and why places shouldn't bend over to try and attract corporations. You can give them a billion-a-year invention, they'll still move away when somewhere else looks more appealing.
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Mar 9, 2020 00:34
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A Couple’s Last Words to Each Other
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Mar 9, 2020 01:52
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 Heartwrenching 
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Mar 9, 2020 01:57
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Baby shoes, never worn We're sorry, something went wrong
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Mar 9, 2020 04:59
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Jesus Christ that was heart breaking.
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Mar 9, 2020 05:07
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Yeah I started reading it and kind of noped out a few lines in, I legit didn’t feel comfortable with intruding on a conversation that personal
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Mar 9, 2020 06:17
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PetraCore posted:It's also interesting that electro-shock therapy is actually a viable and effective treatment for depression, although my understanding is it's reserved for severe medication-resistant cases these days because we do have a fair amount of antidepressant options to try first. Sometimes Bad Medicine is just highly specific Good Medicine that gets expanded waaaay past its effectiveness because if it works for one thing, it works for another, right? Right?? Convulsive therapy was used broadly before they added the voltage-to-brain part; adding the abusiveness of the 1930's medical and psychological establishment meant a bad rep for a complex treatment. It may be the first, only or emergency option for a patient with severe depression who is a high suicide risk, has depression along with a difficult disorder like MS or Parkinson's, is suffering from prolonged or severe mania or has life-threatening or non-responsive catatonia. Results might be miraculous or just stabilizing, and usually require repeat visits. Temporary confusion or memory loss are common side effects, death rate is very low, seems not much worse than being anesthetized, however effects on brain structure and cognitive ability are a bit ??? With a thankfully healthy mind, I think I'd go with ECT if it meant avoiding the sorts of disorders it actually treats effectively, even if it means knowing your doctor probably isn't 100% on why it's working either.
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Mar 9, 2020 08:10
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Aesop Poprock posted:Yeah I started reading it and kind of noped out a few lines in, I legit didn’t feel comfortable with intruding on a conversation that personal It's presented in documentary style so the conversation itself isn't shared until the end - what you're reading at the top of the transcript there is just narration. The recording itself is actually a fairly mundane but sweet conversation between a man stuck in the hospital and his Alzheimer's-ridden wife at home. They tell each other they miss each other. The patter of their normal conversation gets cruelly cut off by the recording machine in what is a clear allegory for life. That's pretty much it. I think it's a cute story but not worth the mini-doc, but that's probably because I lived through a relative with Alzheimer's so there's nothing heartwarming there for me anymore. It's just a destructive disease that takes everything from you. At least this woman was well-loved and had the proper social and medical support to live her last days in relative comfort. This is literally the best situation for a someone like this, so to me this is less heartbreaking than it could have turned out. StrangersInTheNight has a new favorite as of 13:48 on Mar 26, 2020 |
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Mar 9, 2020 10:00
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Are you having too nice a day? Watch this comprehensive and very information video on the Tulsa race riots! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WyRU1ZfQ2k It's a seriously well done video from a relatively unknown YouTuber who mostly sticks to paranormal stuff. She really did her research on this one and did the topic well. It does sound like she recorded it in a closet, though.
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Mar 9, 2020 15:21
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