|
SirSamVimes posted:The question that the finale of HoS asks the player is "Do you think a repehensible person can change, and do you think someone who has done terrible things deserves the chance to try to do so?" The answer to both those questions can be "yes" and also Geralt could reasonably not intervene. Olgierd doesn't even ask you to.
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2020 21:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 19:07 |
|
|
Look Sir Droids posted:As it stands, they left just enough of a speck for possible redemption/rehabilitation in Olgierd to make it worthwhile for the player to consider. No Wave fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Mar 8, 2020 |
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2020 21:07
|
|
|
I gotta say HOS was amazing no clue how blood and wine can top it. The first step into the painted world was absolutely stunning and mind blowing start to finish both thematically and graphically. Characters, art design, computer graphics, voice acting, and story all working perfectly together. Just a triumph of a dlc.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2020 21:13
|
|
|
The Bloody Baron is a lot more sympathetic piece of poo poo than Olgierd because the Baron seems genuinely remorseful and takes some steps to heal his family. O'Dimm preys on people in desperate situations, sure. But Olgierd was willing to sacrifice a loved one (Vlodimir) and sell his own soul for wealth. I don't remember if Olgierd summoned O'Dimm but he does summon demons later on to try and weasel out of the contract and binds the demons to care for Iris. I don't see anything sympathetic about Olgierd, there's nothing he's done that makes me think he deserves a second chance. But I can't let a literal Satan figure win either.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2020 21:21
|
|
|
Fritz the Horse posted:The Bloody Baron is a lot more sympathetic piece of poo poo than Olgierd because the Baron seems genuinely remorseful and takes some steps to heal his family. Aftet everything he's done Geralt helping Satan trying to ensure a contract properly paid out is the most Witcher thing to do. pentyne fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Mar 8, 2020 |
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2020 21:25
|
|
|
Olgierd, having lost everything, did one extremely bad thing in agreeing to sacrifice his brother. Something he obviously feels very guilty about. But his responsibility for everything bad he did after that is pretty dubious, given that O'Dimm had sucked his emotions out of him. There's good reason to hope he might be much nicer once he's been freed.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2020 21:32
|
|
|
Fritz the Horse posted:The Bloody Baron is a lot more sympathetic piece of poo poo than Olgierd because the Baron seems genuinely remorseful and takes some steps to heal his family. Abusive spouses are all about being sorry until they do it again. Also at the end of that quest - either way - there's not much (or any?) of a family left to heal. Edit: Ravenfood posted:And yeah, he does, but I feel like he still has limits in terms of sane risks. I guess it is a big (more than usual) risk, mostly because of the relative lack of information / precedence. itry fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Mar 8, 2020 |
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2020 21:57
|
|
|
Oh dear me posted:Olgierd, having lost everything, did one extremely bad thing in agreeing to sacrifice his brother. Something he obviously feels very guilty about. Let's not act like the intellectual abilty to understand what does and does not hurt people is somehow tied to feeling bad or good. Olgierd is a spoiled failson who expected the world to fall at his feet thanks to his family's wealth and prestige and live a consequence free life. It didn't happen so he did horrific things to make it happen. Boohoo I'm not happy after I got everything I wanted why cant i get yet another chance? pentyne fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Mar 8, 2020 |
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2020 22:03
|
|
|
Oh dear me posted:Olgierd, having lost everything, did one extremely bad thing in agreeing to sacrifice his brother. Something he obviously feels very guilty about. I kinda disagree, my understanding of what happened to Olgierd is different than yours. Of course, we don't have all the details and your two sources (Olgierd and O'Dimm) are not exactly reliable. I thought that Olgierd wished "to live like there was no tomorrow." O'Dimm fulfills this by making Olgierd immortal, he can't die, there are no consequences for his actions so he can live like there is no tomorrow. And so Olgierd does exactly that, lives it up. He talks about this when you meet him at the manor, he travels the world, fights, seeks out the most extreme experiences. Olgierd basically parties until he gets bored and jaded with life, he doesn't care anymore. He's done everything, nothing has meaning or thrill to him anymore. I don't think O'Dimm actually stripped him of emotions. Olgierd is a selfish rear end in a top hat, what O'Dimm did by making him immortal was enable him to be a selfish pleasure and thrill-seeking prick to the max. O'Dimm is a manipulator, he wants to trap people and watch them self-destruct, it's the self-inflicted pain he gets off on mostly. O'Dimm is incredibly powerful, he's certainly capable of directly loving with Olgierd's emotions but that's no fun. It's more enjoyable for Satan to tempt people into doing bad things on their own than to directly influence them. If that makes sense? That's my interpretation anyway.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2020 22:11
|
|
|
The 'live like there's no tomorrow" wish created his heart of stone. Go'D interpreted the wish as wanting to not give a single poo poo about anything.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2020 22:16
|
|
|
Given what choice Olgierd made its entirely possible his inabilty to feel everything is psychological and not magical. Every single good thing in his life after that is completely defined by him having committed one of the most horrific things possible. I didn't see the Gaunter fight and had no interest in watching it on YouTube so maybe I'm wrong.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2020 22:17
|
|
|
I think he just took away his tomorrows, as it were. Basically creating a simulacrum of a human being, but without any hope/emotions/wants/needs. Edit: pentyne posted:Given what choice Olgierd made its entirely possible his inabilty to feel everything is psychological and not magical. Every single good thing in his life after that is completely defined by him having committed one of the most horrific things possible. That's also a possibility I guess. Also, there is no fight. It's a riddle itry fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Mar 8, 2020 |
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2020 22:24
|
|
|
Tom Tucker posted:I gotta say HOS was amazing no clue how blood and wine can top it. The first step into the painted world was absolutely stunning and mind blowing start to finish both thematically and graphically. Characters, art design, computer graphics, voice acting, and story all working perfectly together. Just a triumph of a dlc. HoS is probably the best DLC I've ever played, but it is clearly DLC. Blood and Wine is more of an epilogue to the series - it's larger, richer, and has more content than entire games from some other studios. Comparing the two is pretty difficult.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2020 23:33
|
|
|
As written, it's a magical curse that suppresses his emotions. After O'Dimm is defeated he immediately begins to feel again. But that's loving dumb, and O'Dimm actually granting his wish for immortality without twisting it in anyway is much closer to the stories it's an homage to.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2020 23:33
|
|
|
It just makes more sense to me that O'Dimm would want to psychologically torture Oligerd than force the torment on him magically. It's entirely a cruel game for O'Dimm's amusement.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2020 23:59
|
|
|
gaunter isnt satan hes the genie from Wishmaster
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 00:01
|
|
|
Flavahbeast posted:gaunter isnt satan hes the genie from Wishmaster He’s clearly God, I mean look at his initials: G O’D And as suspected, God is an rear end in a top hat.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 00:20
|
|
|
It's kinda interesting that O'Dimm probably is the most powerful creature seen in the Witcher universe. Considering how much Geralt tries to be cautious regarding powerful monsters, he really gets wayyyy over his head on this one.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 00:58
|
|
|
Mike the TV posted:It's kinda interesting that O'Dimm probably is the most powerful creature seen in the Witcher universe. Considering how much Geralt tries to be cautious regarding powerful monsters, he really gets wayyyy over his head on this one. What about any of that made it seem like Geralt was even remotely excited or willing? He only ended up taking the deal because he was chained up on his way to get brutally tortured and killed for being tricked into killing a royal prince. And who exactly sent Geralt on that path?
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 01:10
|
|
|
I wonder if that Ofieri mage had made a deal with O'Dimm. It's a pretty huge coincidence they turn up at the same time, and turning up to find him dead is a very O'Dimm wish.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 01:13
|
|
|
Reminder that Gaunter O'Dimm is the Master of Mirrors, the Man of Glass. That's important: he exploits human weakness. He knows what people desire and manipulates with that. You look in the mirror and Master Mirror O'Dimm stares back, promising you wealth and immortality if only you sacrifice your brother and your eternal soul. He delights in mortal humans tormenting themselves. O'Dimm is probably the most powerful and dangerous entity Geralt encounters. He doesn't give a poo poo about mortals other than they're toys in his game. Geralt and Olgierd are playthings for him.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 01:52
|
|
|
pentyne posted:Let's not act like the intellectual abilty to understand what does and does not hurt people is somehow tied to feeling bad or good. If you commit a purely intellectual error, it's simply called a mistake. Emotions are essential to morality - there's no purely intellectual reason to think hurting people is bad. Oh dear me fucked around with this message at 14:13 on Mar 9, 2020 |
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 01:56
|
|
|
He probably has a grudge against Geralt now though.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 02:27
|
|
|
Mike the TV posted:It's kinda interesting that O'Dimm probably is the most powerful creature seen in the Witcher universe. Considering how much Geralt tries to be cautious regarding powerful monsters, he really gets wayyyy over his head on this one. It's also important to note that O'Dimm is sentient. While his motives aren't exactly laudable, he doesn't immediately fit the definition of "monster" as Geralt sees it - it's the same reason that killing godlings, dopplers, and friendly trolls is an individual choice vs. just a fight. He also doesn't really know what O'Dimm is. He's kind of outside the Witcher lore, I don't think that's a being that Vesemir ever taught him. That's also why you get the chance to face the riddle at the end - the choice is which is the greater evil. Olgierd, who has done some truly despicable poo poo, but has never done Geralt wrong directly (that I can think of, I haven't played HoS in quite awhile), or O'Dimm, who killed a guy with a spoon just for bumping into him - a needlessly cruel and inhumane act. It's an excellent piece of DLC.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 02:56
|
|
|
Shooting Blanks posted:It's also important to note that O'Dimm is sentient. While his motives aren't exactly laudable, he doesn't immediately fit the definition of "monster" as Geralt sees it - it's the same reason that killing godlings, dopplers, and friendly trolls is an individual choice vs. just a fight. He also doesn't really know what O'Dimm is. He's kind of outside the Witcher lore, I don't think that's a being that Vesemir ever taught him. Ehhh, wouldn't this also fit something like higher vampires? If sentience gives way to sadism and murder Geralt seems inclined to snuff it out.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 03:13
|
|
|
Shooting Blanks posted:Olgierd, who has done some truly despicable poo poo, but has never done Geralt wrong directly (that I can think of, Olgierd is the one that started the whole thing in motion sending you to slay the monster in the sewer. The he *knew* was a transformed Olferi prince. Because he’s the one that did it. And it directly led to Geralt being put in a position where he really had no choice but to bargain with Gunter from a position of weakness. In summation, gently caress Olgierd. He got what was coming to him. Shooting Blanks posted:It's an excellent piece of DLC. Absolutely.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 03:17
|
|
|
Wolfsheim posted:Ehhh, wouldn't this also fit something like higher vampires? If sentience gives way to sadism and murder Geralt seems inclined to snuff it out. This is where actions come in - Regis is a bro, whereas Detlaff is a higher vampire still driven by base instinct on a certain level. He lacks the capacity to see shades of grey and you have the choice to fight him or not. At the same time, true to character, O'Dimm forced Geralt into a lovely situation and was vague about the consequences. At the time, Geralt's back was up against the proverbial wall. Proteus Jones posted:Olgierd is the one that started the whole thing in motion sending you to slay the monster in the sewer. The he *knew* was a transformed Olferi prince. Because he’s the one that did it. And it directly led to Geralt being put in a position where he really had no choice but to bargain with Gunter from a position of weakness. Forgot about that part, whoops.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 03:25
|
|
|
Olgierd is pretty cool and we hang out and I like him.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 04:32
|
|
|
Gaetan did nothing wrong.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 04:55
|
|
|
Oh dear me posted:If you commit a purely intellectual error, it's simply called a mistake. Emotions are essential to morality - there's no purely intellectual reason to think people is bad. Emotions are not essential to morality. The core idea of ethics and morality bound to some abstract feeling hasn't been a thing since the philosophers of the age of enlightenment. Even someone somehow purged of all their emotions can still understand that killing a loved one in front of someone is a bad thing to do. Shooting Blanks posted:This is where actions come in - Regis is a bro, whereas Detlaff is a higher vampire still driven by base instinct on a certain level. He lacks the capacity to see shades of grey and you have the choice to fight him or not. The higher vampires are much more interesting then Olgierd. They exist with an entirely different understanding of life and mortality with centuries of radically different perceptions on the value of a life of a human being. Living to emotional extremes, having a completely different concept of death, seeing mortal life as a curiosity, etc. All other vampires to that point in the Witcher games came off as barely civilized beasts just skulking around and preying on people. Even listening to Regis talk about vampire society its so interesting because at best humans could be a buzzing mosquito of an annoyance if they went all out trying to kill them. They would care more about their infrastructure being impacted then an army bearing down on them. What goes down with Detlaff I killed him and gave Sylvia the ribbon. Sylvia was an actual victim, singled out by a wandering mage as a cursed child and treated as such until she was cast out to die alone in a forest. Her rage and anger at the people responsible wasn't some whim. Detlaff was a victim too but was too powerful to just let run wild exterminating an entire country to sate his anger.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 05:02
|
|
|
It's been a while, but I seem to recall that Olgierd didn't know his brother would be the one to pay the price for his bargain, just that someone would. And, sorry to be cynical, but I think a lot of people would happily trade away some rando's life for happiness in theirs. But I might be mis-remembering how the story goes.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 08:42
|
|
|
Assuming the wiki is accurate " Gaunter agreed to grant three wishes, but in return Olgierd had to choose to sacrifice someone he loved: Iris or Vlodimir. He chose Vlodimir and the next day, during a raid, Vlodirmir was incidentally killed while trying to escape, having been overwhelmed by soldiers."
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 08:57
|
|
|
Comte de Saint-Germain posted:It's been a while, but I seem to recall that Olgierd didn't know his brother would be the one to pay the price for his bargain, just that someone would. And, sorry to be cynical, but I think a lot of people would happily trade away some rando's life for happiness in theirs. He was given a choice between Iris and Vlodimir.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 09:40
|
|
|
Ravenfood posted:He was given a choice between Iris and Vlodimir. Well, nevermind then, gently caress him.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 09:55
|
|
|
I’d still argue that when trying to pick the lesser evil between a really awful dude and literally the devil you don’t go with the devil.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 10:07
|
|
|
Avalerion posted:I’d still argue that when trying to pick the lesser evil between a really awful dude and literally the devil you don’t go with the devil.  However bad Olgierd is, he's bad in a human way and he is capable of being redeemed and if you save him he regains the ability to feel and the enormity of just how badly he hosed up sinks in. He has to live with himself and that is his punishment, knowing that his actions led to him losing everything that mattered to him. Gaunter O'Dimm, on the other hand, is an actual loving devil!
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 10:14
|
|
|
Helith posted:Gaunter O'Dimm, on the other hand, is an actual loving devil! Agreed. Everyone who sides with Gaunter is acting out of selfishness. Either because they don't want to mess with him or because they personally dislike Olgierd and want to punish him via The Devil. (Or they want that sweet, sweet boon Gaunter offers.) 
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 10:56
|
|
|
pentyne posted:Emotions are not essential to morality. The core idea of ethics and morality bound to some abstract feeling hasn't been a thing since the philosophers of the age of enlightenment. Even someone somehow purged of all their emotions can still understand that killing a loved one in front of someone is a bad thing to do. "Reason is and ought to be a slave of the passions" - Hume, a notable Enlightenment thinker, and modern ethical theory is certainly not devoid of emotions, but discussing that's too off-topic. The last sentence of your that I've quoted though is not an answer to me, since I wasn't suggesting Olgierd made an intellectual error. For me the consideration that matters is whether Olgierd is likely to murder people in future, and in that context not attributing importance to his emotional state when he committed his previous crimes would be absurd.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 11:04
|
|
|
Lt. Lizard posted:Agreed. Not really. When Geralt agrees to terms with O'Dimm, he has no idea that winning the riddle will banish O'Dimm. He only agrees to a double or nothing game. Which means he's choosing to let an evil man continue to walk the world, at great risk to himself, on the hope that Olgierd will gain redemption during that time. Which, fine, but Olgierd entered into a contract pretty voluntarily because he thought he could out-cheat the devil and suffered for it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 12:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 19:07 |
|
|
You are letting a literal devil accomplish his goals under the rationale of "well the other guy is an rear end in a top hat and TOTALLY deserved that".
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2020 12:58
|
|