Everyone's a WarCriminal: the Mil-SciFi Thread

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Everyone's a WarCriminal: the Mil-SciFi Thread

C.M. Kruger: Oct 28, 2013

quantumfoam posted:

I'd call Brigador the best modern mecha game in existence.

Best isometric vehicle action game since Nuclear Strike. The audio book that came with the soundtrack was good too IIRC.

https://twitter.com/gausswerks/status/1017962559713021952
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izPsEMNnKMo

edit:

C.M. Kruger fucked around with this message at 09:15 on Mar 3, 2020

# ? Mar 3, 2020 09:11

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 02:33

Kchama: Jul 25, 2007

Libluini posted:

I've always chalked this up to Manticorans being weird.

Also as a cat person, I'm an absolute sucker for people playing around with their cats. The more, the better I will like your book

And uh I think I know what Weber was coily hinting at with the title, but I don't want to spoil this let's read and will wait to see if you're getting it on your way through the book.

Graysons

They are REALLY weird, if that's suppose to be normal.

I don't mind if you wanna bring it up. I couldn't think of anything the title could be referring to in this book at all.

And I don't mind cats, but Nimitz is just like... kind of forced on you a little much I feel.

Graysons are the loving worst though.

EDIT: You know I had a thought that it seems like a... 'coincidence' that he introduces this weirdly paternal Chief Stewart role on ships in the same book that's all about the super paternalistic and chauvinistic shithead bunch that Weber loves.

quantumfoam posted:

Mil-scifi gaming wise:
Nobody mentioned Terra Nova: Strike Force Centauri or Brigador, so I will mention them. I'd call Brigador the best modern mecha game in existence.

Actually, I feel that belongs to Super Robot Wars, G Generation Gundam, or Ghiren's Greed and games similiar to it like G Generation Gundam G-NEXT.

Kchama fucked around with this message at 10:34 on Mar 3, 2020

# ? Mar 3, 2020 09:59

Ugly In The Morning: Jul 1, 2010; Pillbug

C.M. Kruger posted:

Best isometric vehicle action game since Nuclear Strike. The audio book that came with the soundtrack was good too IIRC.

https://twitter.com/gausswerks/status/1017962559713021952
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izPsEMNnKMo

edit:

The audiobook is available on Kindle Unlimited if you prefer to read text over listen (I don�t know why but I can never really absorb an audiobook). It is indeed way better than a video game novel has any right to be.

# ? Mar 3, 2020 14:25

Aerdan: Apr 14, 2012; Not Dennis NEDry

It's mentioned in the next book that captains are assigned a personal assistant when they achieve that rank, and I think it's also mentioned that light cruisers are too small for the captain of the ship to have one. Here, she doesn't yet have one but apparently one of the many responsibilities chief stewards have on smaller vessels is to provide similar service to the captain of the ship. It's not ever explicitly stated, if so, even when we get narration for other ship captains. Nor do we ever get any narration centered around Mac's life, which would clear some of this up.

# ? Mar 3, 2020 21:22

Gnoman: Feb 12, 2014; Come, all you fair and tender maids
Who flourish in your pri-ime
Beware, take care, keep your garden fair
Let Gnoman steal your thy-y-me
Le-et Gnoman steal your thyme

Kchama posted:

They are REALLY weird, if that's suppose to be normal.

I don't mind if you wanna bring it up. I couldn't think of anything the title could be referring to in this book at all.

It is rather explicit later in the book.

After Houseman issues his illegal order to abandon the Graysons to their fate, and she slaps him, she calls it out.
"He knew the Queen's honor is at stake here, Mr. Houseman. The honor of the entire Kingdom of Manticore. "

((Not using quote tags because it breaks the spoiler, and spoilers disrupt the flow of a Lets Read.))

quote:

EDIT: You know I had a thought that it seems like a... 'coincidence' that he introduces this weirdly paternal Chief Stewart role on ships in the same book that's all about the super paternalistic and chauvinistic shithead bunch that Weber loves.

We see several other captain/steward combinations, in more than one navy, and they all have pretty much the same dynamic regardless of their relative genders.

Aerdan posted:

It's mentioned in the next book that captains are assigned a personal assistant when they achieve that rank, and I think it's also mentioned that light cruisers are too small for the captain of the ship to have one. Here, she doesn't yet have one but apparently one of the many responsibilities chief stewards have on smaller vessels is to provide similar service to the captain of the ship. It's not ever explicitly stated, if so, even when we get narration for other ship captains. Nor do we ever get any narration centered around Mac's life, which would clear some of this up.

This is her first heavy cruiser, so it would make sense to introduce a steward here if light cruisers are too small. I don't remember the passage you're talking about, though.

# ? Mar 3, 2020 21:42

FuturePastNow: May 19, 2014

I assumed the Captain's Steward thing was just British age-of-sail, but I've never looked into it

# ? Mar 3, 2020 22:29

Kchama: Jul 25, 2007

FuturePastNow posted:

I assumed the Captain's Steward thing was just British age-of-sail, but I've never looked into it

Horatio Hornblower did not have an Attractive Older Person tuck him in at night, no.

Like it's a real position on boats, though he's using the American version where they're the top person in the department rather than a senior member of the department (because the Purser is their boss) and I'm shocked he didn't have an 18th century style Purser who gets to sell concessions and supplies to the people on board the ship.

Basically their job is be in charge of the people doing the cooking and cleaning and inventory. The whole "personal nanny" thing is a Weber thing, and being the uncharitable sort I am, is probably only ever mentioned for Honor because it's totally a fetish thing with Honor and father figures for Weber.

Gnoman posted:

We see several other captain/steward combinations, in more than one navy, and they all have pretty much the same dynamic regardless of their relative genders.

It's pretty weird.

Also that quote just makes me groan because you could say that about pretty much any mission Honor is on, that's why I didn't think there was any thing to warrant that being the title.

Since I don't care about spoilers, Houseman is the Suchon of this book. Weber loves having them.

# ? Mar 4, 2020 01:15

TheGreatEvilKing: Mar 28, 2016

Is anyone still reading the Safehold Let's Read? It was only supposed to be book 1, but I'm happy to continue it.

The problem is that there's just so much drivel that it's actively kinda unfun and I'm gonna just fall into the trap of repeating "Nothing is happening", "Weber has written this crap before", "the stock characters are being reused," and "there's no dramatic tension".

It's bad, but it's not entertainingly or interestingly bad.

# ? Mar 4, 2020 07:42

Kchama: Jul 25, 2007

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

Is anyone still reading the Safehold Let's Read? It was only supposed to be book 1, but I'm happy to continue it.

The problem is that there's just so much drivel that it's actively kinda unfun and I'm gonna just fall into the trap of repeating "Nothing is happening", "Weber has written this crap before", "the stock characters are being reused," and "there's no dramatic tension".

It's bad, but it's not entertainingly or interestingly bad.

Keep at it. I will read it until the sun dies. Because gently caress I hate those books.

# ? Mar 4, 2020 09:23

blackmongoose: Mar 31, 2011; DARK INFERNO ROOK!

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

Is anyone still reading the Safehold Let's Read? It was only supposed to be book 1, but I'm happy to continue it.

The problem is that there's just so much drivel that it's actively kinda unfun and I'm gonna just fall into the trap of repeating "Nothing is happening", "Weber has written this crap before", "the stock characters are being reused," and "there's no dramatic tension".

It's bad, but it's not entertainingly or interestingly bad.

I've been enjoying them and I think you do a really great job with them, but if they're not fun and/or cathartic for you then you shouldn't force yourself to write them just for the entertainment of some internet strangers.

# ? Mar 4, 2020 18:13

Lucas Archer: Dec 1, 2007; Falling...

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

Is anyone still reading the Safehold Let's Read? It was only supposed to be book 1, but I'm happy to continue it.

The problem is that there's just so much drivel that it's actively kinda unfun and I'm gonna just fall into the trap of repeating "Nothing is happening", "Weber has written this crap before", "the stock characters are being reused," and "there's no dramatic tension".

It's bad, but it's not entertainingly or interestingly bad.

Don�t torture yourself for our entertainment. Self flagellation is not fun to watch. Abandon ship and never worry about those stupid misspelled names again.

Cayleb? Nahrman? Haarahld? Go gently caress yourself, Weber.

# ? Mar 4, 2020 19:47

quantumfoam: Dec 25, 2003

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

Is anyone still reading the Safehold Let's Read? It was only supposed to be book 1, but I'm happy to continue it.

The problem is that there's just so much drivel that it's actively kinda unfun and I'm gonna just fall into the trap of repeating "Nothing is happening", "Weber has written this crap before", "the stock characters are being reused," and "there's no dramatic tension".

It's bad, but it's not entertainingly or interestingly bad.

Kchama has fully unlocked their personalized Lament Configuration puzzle, however there is still hope for you. Bail out, and let the bailout be a testament to the quality of the writing/content of the writing.

If anyone wants a truly challenging author, I dare them to try and Let's Read Jerry Pournelle. Pournelle's articles in Avalon Hills decades-running/decades-dead The General wargaming newsletter-magazine are bad enough at only 2-4 pages long, a novel of Pournelle is the true Literary WarCrime.

mil-scifi gaming: Still ranking Brigador higher than anything else. Never played any of the Gundam games and Mechwarrior style FPS mecha games seem to devolve into Barbie Dress-up min/maxing while abusing braindead enemy AI/indestructible terrain features.
Really like that, with dedication, 95% of the map in Brigador levels can be reduced to fine rubble, excluding indestructible border walls and water tiles, during any mission.

quantumfoam fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Mar 4, 2020

# ? Mar 4, 2020 20:19

FuturePastNow: May 19, 2014

Read Fallen Angels if you truly want to torture yourself with a Niven/Pournelle novel environmentalists have destroyed the Earth

# ? Mar 4, 2020 21:14

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

As funny as it is watching someone destroy themselves by reading something they hate and making scathing comments on it the entire way, I could never do it. The one book I really hated I threw away. The idea of trying to read it again, even just to mock it, makes me shiver with revulsion.

The only stuff I could possible see myself doing a Let's Read on is stuff that's weird, but stuff that I also like. If work stops killing me for a second, I'd probably already started with The Power of the Three for example, but right now I'm still kind of swamped and need relaxing after work, not more work. (Joke is on me, I still work on at least two private projects in parallel after work. I feel so tired)

# ? Mar 4, 2020 22:27

Gnoman: Feb 12, 2014; Come, all you fair and tender maids
Who flourish in your pri-ime
Beware, take care, keep your garden fair
Let Gnoman steal your thy-y-me
Le-et Gnoman steal your thyme

Lets Reads are hard.

# ? Mar 4, 2020 22:45

mllaneza: Apr 28, 2007; Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952

Libluini posted:

The only stuff I could possible see myself doing a Let's Read on is stuff that's weird, but stuff that I also like.

Weird is good !

# ? Mar 5, 2020 00:20

Kchama: Jul 25, 2007

quantumfoam posted:

Kchama has fully unlocked their personalized Lament Configuration puzzle, however there is still hope for you. Bail out, and let the bailout be a testament to the quality of the writing/content of the writing.

If anyone wants a truly challenging author, I dare them to try and Let's Read Jerry Pournelle. Pournelle's articles in Avalon Hills decades-running/decades-dead The General wargaming newsletter-magazine are bad enough at only 2-4 pages long, a novel of Pournelle is the true Literary WarCrime.

mil-scifi gaming: Still ranking Brigador higher than anything else. Never played any of the Gundam games and Mechwarrior style FPS mecha games seem to devolve into Barbie Dress-up min/maxing while abusing braindead enemy AI/indestructible terrain features.
Really like that, with dedication, 95% of the map in Brigador levels can be reduced to fine rubble, excluding indestructible border walls and water tiles, during any mission.

The Gundam games differ between the high-level strategy of the Ghiren's Greed series where you control one of the nations during a specific war period and do all of its military research and construction, to the G Generation Gundam games which are either Super Robot War style medium-scale story-focused turn-based games games or replicating the Gundam stories in SRW-style gameplay.

They're really drat good and it's a shame we've only just started getting them.

Anyways I still say keep going with it. But I need my own enjoying at someone else's cost.

# ? Mar 5, 2020 00:57

TheGreatEvilKing: Mar 28, 2016

I'm out! I'm freeeeeeee!

Thanks for the kind words, all.

# ? Mar 5, 2020 01:09

SardonicTyrant: Feb 26, 2016; BTICH IM A NEWT
熱くなれ夢みた明日を
必ずいつかつかまえる
走り出せ振り向くことなく
&

Half-jokingly adding the Animorphs series of YA novels to this thread.

# ? Mar 5, 2020 01:11

Kchama: Jul 25, 2007

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

I'm out! I'm freeeeeeee!

Thanks for the kind words, all.

I did not free you. Keep doing it for me and me alone!

SardonicTyrant posted:

Half-jokingly adding the Animorphs series of YA novels to this thread.

The problem there is that Animorphs rule.

# ? Mar 5, 2020 01:20

Stereo: Feb 27, 2014; Get rekt son

SardonicTyrant posted:

Half-jokingly adding the Animorphs series of YA novels to this thread.

Is disturbing I want to re read these? Or should I just leave them to annals of nostalgia..

# ? Mar 5, 2020 23:23

Kchama: Jul 25, 2007

Stereo posted:

Is disturbing I want to re read these? Or should I just leave them to annals of nostalgia..

They're still YA books but I feel they hold up pretty well still.

# ? Mar 6, 2020 01:40

SardonicTyrant: Feb 26, 2016; BTICH IM A NEWT
熱くなれ夢みた明日を
必ずいつかつかまえる
走り出せ振り向くことなく
&

Stereo posted:

Is disturbing I want to re read these? Or should I just leave them to annals of nostalgia..

Why would it be disturbing?

But yeah, you should read them. They're a great mix of the horrors of war and 90s humor, the plots are usually clever and fun, and best of all they have none of the creepiness and hang-ups you usually encounter in a mil-scifi story.

# ? Mar 6, 2020 02:26

Khizan: Jul 30, 2013

Stereo posted:

Is disturbing I want to re read these? Or should I just leave them to annals of nostalgia..

I was never particularly into them, but I have friends who used to be and they told me that the entire series is available legally as free ebooks if you go looking for them.

# ? Mar 6, 2020 03:30

SardonicTyrant: Feb 26, 2016; BTICH IM A NEWT
熱くなれ夢みた明日を
必ずいつかつかまえる
走り出せ振り向くことなく
&

Khizan posted:

I was never particularly into them, but I have friends who used to be and they told me that the entire series is available legally as free ebooks if you go looking for them.

It's more of a legal grey area. The author, K.A. Applegate, said she was okay with it, as the books were out of print at the time, but now the first eight or so are currently being sold as ebooks by Scholastic*.

*although they try to "update" some of the 90s references, which as you read the books will learn is an unforgivable sin.

# ? Mar 6, 2020 03:44

Gnoman: Feb 12, 2014; Come, all you fair and tender maids
Who flourish in your pri-ime
Beware, take care, keep your garden fair
Let Gnoman steal your thy-y-me
Le-et Gnoman steal your thyme

That is am annoying trend on kidlit. Some of the Judy Blume and (I think) Beverly Cleary books were similarly "updated".

# ? Mar 6, 2020 05:32

Kchama: Jul 25, 2007

I'm gonna be super real, Animorphs was a huge influence on my own attempts at writing, because as mentioned, they rule.

I still don't know how nobody's ever actually done anything like them. All of Applegate's stuff was huge and amazing and there were no imitators I ever saw.

# ? Mar 6, 2020 06:19

quantumfoam: Dec 25, 2003

Kchama posted:

I did not free you. Keep doing it for me and me alone!

General thread reaction to every new Kchama Let's Read Honor Harrington update-post:
https://www.loc.gov/item/2011647199/

btw, I'm Theodoric in that picture.

# ? Mar 8, 2020 22:42

Kchama: Jul 25, 2007

HONOR OF THE QUEEN CHAPTER THREE

Well, with the HONOR SIGNAL lit, I shall return! In this chapter, we.... basically just have Honor meeting with the Strawman Liberal of the book who is just there to be dunked on by Honor and co. It's not very interesting. Not really even much to talk about.

quote:

White table linens glowed, silver and china gleamed, and conversation hummed as the stewards removed the dessert dishes. MacGuiness moved quietly around the table, personally pouring the wine, and Honor watched the lights glitter deep in the ruby heart of her glass.

Fearless was young, one of the Royal Manticoran Navy's newest and most powerful heavy cruisers. The Star Knight class often served as squadron or flotilla flagships, and BuShips had borne that in mind when they designed their accommodations. Admiral Courvosier's flag cabin was even more splendid than Honor's, and the captain's dining cabin was downright huge by Navy standards. If it wasn't big enough to seat all of Honor's officers�a heavy cruiser was a warship, and no warship had mass to waste�it was more than large enough to accommodate her senior officers and Courvosier's delegation.

It had no mass to waste except for a giant dining cabin to fit dozens of people.

quote:

MacGuiness finished pouring, and Honor glanced around the long table. The Admiral�who, true to his newly acquired status, had exchanged his uniform for formal civilian dress�sat at her right hand. Andreas Venizelos faced him at her left; from there, her guests ran down the sides of the table in descending order of seniority, military and civilian, to Ensign Carolyn Wolcott at its foot. This was Wolcott's first cruise after graduation, and she looked almost like a schoolgirl dressed up in her mother's uniform. Tonight was also the first time she'd joined her new captain for dinner, and her anxiety had been obvious in her over-controlled table manners. But the RMN believed the proper place for an officer to learn her duties, social as well as professional, was in space, and Honor caught the ensign's eye and touched the side of her glass.

Wait what so they don't teach except for by trial by fire? No wonder they're so incompetent.

quote:

Wolcott blushed, reminded of her responsibility as junior officer present, and rose. The rest of the guests fell silent, and her spine straightened as all eyes turned to her.

"Ladies and Gentlemen," she raised her wine, her voice deeper and more melodious�and confident�than Honor had expected, "the Queen!"

"The Queen!" The response rumbled back to her, glasses rose, and Wolcott slipped back into her chair with obvious relief as the formality was completed. She glanced up the table at her captain, and her face relaxed as she saw Honor's approving expression.

"You know," Courvosier murmured in Honor's ear, "I still remember the first time it was my turn to do that. Odd how terrifying it can be, isn't it?"

"Gosh it couldn't be scary because we put them on the spot for their first time instead of giving them actual practice. Practice? For losers!

quote:

"All things are relative, Sir," Honor replied with a smile, "and I suppose it does us good. Weren't you the one who was telling me a Queen's officer has to understand diplomacy as well as tactics?"

"Now that, Captain, is a very true statement," another voice said, and Honor suppressed a grimace. "In fact, I only wish more Navy officers could realize that diplomacy is even more important than tactics and strategy," the Honorable Reginald Houseman continued in his deep, cultured baritone.

"I don't believe I can quite agree with that, Sir," Honor said quietly, hoping her irritation at his intrusion into a private conversation didn't show. "At least, not from the Navy's viewpoint. Important, yes, but it's our job to step in after diplomacy breaks down."

"Indeed?" Houseman smiled the superior smile Honor loathed. "I realize military people often lack the time for the study of history, but an ancient Old Earth soldier got it exactly right when he said war was simply the continuation of diplomacy by non-diplomatic means."

"That's something of a paraphrase, and that 'simply' understates the case a bit, but I'll grant that it sums up the sense of General Clausewitz's remark." Houseman's eyes narrowed as Honor supplied Clausewitz's name and rank, and other conversations flagged as eyes turned toward them. "Of course, Clausewitz came out of the Napoleonic Era on Old Earth, heading into the Final Age of Western Imperialism, and On War isn't really about politics or diplomacy, except inasmuch as they and warfare are all instruments of state policy. Actually, Sun Tzu made the same point over two thousand T-years earlier." A hint of red tinged Houseman's jowls, and Honor smiled pleasantly. "Still, neither of them had a monopoly on the concept, did they? Tanakov said much the same thing in his Tenets of War just after the Warshawski sail made interstellar warfare possible, and Gustav Anderman certainly demonstrated the way in which diplomatic and military means can be used to reinforce one another when he took over New Berlin and built it into the Anderman Empire in the sixteenth century. Have you read his Sternenkrieg, Mr. Houseman? It's an interesting distillation of most of the earlier theorists with a few genuine twists of his own, probably from his personal background as a mercenary. I think Admiral White Haven's translation is probably the best available."

Ah yes, the Anderman Empire, which honestly is one of the dumbest thing ever. Weber seems to think it's incredibly clever and funny, but it's just lame. So the basic story is this mercenary conquered a planet of culturally and ethnically Chinese individuals and they all decided to spontaneously worship an obviously insane and delusional man who thinks he's a Prussian empire so they all culturally and linguistically changed to Insane German Prussian overnight.

quote:

"Ah, no, I'm afraid I haven't," Houseman said, and Courvosier blotted his lips with his napkin to hide a grin. "My point, however," the diplomat continued doggedly, "is that properly conducted diplomacy renders military strategy irrelevant by precluding the need for war." He sniffed and swirled his wine gently, and his superior smile reasserted itself.

"Reasonable people negotiating in good faith can always reach reasonable compromises, Captain. Take our situation here, for example. Neither Yeltsin's Star nor the Endicott System have any real resources to attract interstellar commerce, but they each have an inhabited world, with almost nine billion people between them, and they lie less than two days apart for a hyper freighter. That gives them ample opportunity to create local prosperity, yet both economies are at best borderline . . . which is why it's so absurd that they've been at one another's throats for so long over some silly religious difference! They should be trading with one another, building a mutually supported, secure economic future, not wasting resources on an arms race." He shook his head sorrowfully. "Once they discover the advantages of peaceful trade�once they each realize their prosperity depends on the other's�the situation will defuse itself without all this saber rattling."

Honor managed not to stare at him in disbelief, but if she hadn't known the admiral so well, she would have assumed someone had failed to brief Houseman. It would certainly be nice to make peace between Masada and Grayson, but her own reading of the download accompanying her orders had confirmed everything the admiral had said about their long-term hostility. And nice as it would be to put that enmity to rest, Manticore's fundamental purpose was to secure an ally against Haven, not engage in a peacemaking effort that was almost certainly doomed to failure.

"I'm sure that would be a desirable outcome, Mr. Houseman," she said after a moment, "but I don't know how realistic it is."

"Indeed?" Houseman bristled.

"They've been enemies for more than six hundred T-years," she pointed out as gently as she could, "and religious hatreds are among the most virulent known to man."

"That's why they need a fresh viewpoint, a third party from outside the basic equation who can bring them together."

"Excuse me, Sir, but I was under the impression our primary goals are to secure an ally and Fleet base rights and to prevent Haven from penetrating the region instead of us."

"Well, of course they are, Captain." Houseman's tone was just short of impatient. "But the best way to do that is to settle the locals' differences. The potential for instability and Havenite interference will remain as long as their hostility does, whatever else we may accomplish. Once we bring them together, however, we'll have two friends in the region, and there won't be any temptation for either of them to invite Haven in for military advantage. The best diplomatic glue is common interest, not simply a common enemy. Indeed," Houseman sipped his wine, "our entire involvement in this region stems from our own failure to find a common interest with the People's Republic, and it is a failure. There's always some way to avoid confrontation if one only looks deep enough and remembers that, in the long run, violence never solves anything. That's why we have diplomats, Captain Harrington�and why a resort to brute force is an indication of failed diplomacy, nothing more and nothing less."

Major Tomas Ramirez, commander of Fearless's Marine detachment, stared at Houseman in disbelief from further down the table. The heavyset, almost squat Marine had been twelve years old when Haven conquered his native Trevor's Star. He, his mother, and his sister had escaped to Manticore in the last refugee convoy through the Manticore Wormhole Junction; his father had stayed behind, on one of the warships that died to cover the retreat. Now his jaw tightened ominously as Houseman smiled at Honor, but Lieutenant Commander Higgins, Fearless's chief engineer, touched his forearm and jerked a tiny headshake. The little scene wasn't lost on Honor, and she sipped her own wine deliberately, then lowered her glass.

"I see," she said, and wondered how the admiral tolerated such a nincompoop as his second in command. Houseman had a reputation as a brilliant economist and, given Grayson's backward economy, sending him made sense, but he was also an ivory-tower intellectual who'd been plucked from a tenured position in Mannheim University's College of Economics for government service. Mannheim wasn't called "Socialist U" for nothing, and Houseman's prominent family was a vocal supporter of the Liberal Party. Neither of those facts were calculated to endear him to Captain Honor Harrington, and his simplistic notion of how to approach the Grayson-Masada hostility was downright frightening.

"I'm afraid I can't quite agree with you, Sir," she said at last, setting her glass down precisely and keeping her voice as pleasant as humanly possible. "Your argument assumes all negotiators are reasonable, first, and second, that they can always agree on what represents a 'reasonable compromise,' but if history demonstrates one thing quite clearly, it's that they aren't and they can't. If you can see the advantage of peaceful trade between these people, then surely it ought to be evident to them, but the record indicates no one on either side has ever even discussed the possibility. That suggests a degree of hostility that makes economic self-interest immaterial, which, in turn, suggests that what we consider rationalism may not play a particularly prominent part in their thinking. Even if it did, mistakes happen, Mr. Houseman, and that's where the people in uniform come in."

" 'Mistakes,' as you put it," Houseman said more coolly, "often happen because 'the people in uniform' act hastily or ill-advisedly."

"Of course they do," Honor agreed, and he blinked at her in surprise. "In fact, the final mistake is almost always made by someone in uniform�either because she gave the wrong advice to her own superiors when they were the aggressors or because she squeezed the trigger too quickly when an enemy made an unexpected move. Sometimes we even make the mistake of projecting threats and responses in too much detail and lock ourselves into war plans we can't break free of, just as Clausewitz's own disciples did. But, Mr. Houseman," her dark eyes met his suddenly across the snowy tablecloth, "the situations which make military mistakes critical, even possible, grow out of political and diplomatic maneuvers which preceded them."

"Indeed?" Houseman regarded her with grudging respect and marked distaste. "Then wars are primarily the fault of the civilians, Captain, and not the pure-hearted military protectors of the realm?"

"I wouldn't go quite that far," Honor said, and a grin lit her face briefly. "I've known quite a few 'military protectors,' and I'm sorry to say all too few of them were 'pure-hearted'!" Her grin vanished. "On the other hand, I'd have to point out that in any society in which the military is controlled by duly constituted civilian authorities�like ours�the ultimate responsibility has to lie with the civilians who make policy between the wars. I don't mean to suggest that those civilians are stupid or incompetent�" after all, she thought, one must be polite "�or that the military gives them unfailingly good advice, but mutually contradictory national goals can present insoluble dilemmas, however much good faith there may be on both sides. And when one side doesn't negotiate in good faith�" She shrugged.

"It was also Clausewitz who said 'Politics is the womb in which war is developed,' Mr. Houseman. My own view is a bit simpler than that. War may represent the failure of diplomacy, but even the best diplomats operate on credit. Sooner or later someone who's less reasonable than you are is going to call you, and if your military can't cover your I.O.U.s, you lose."

"Well," Houseman twitched his own shoulders, "the object of this mission is to avoid being called, isn't it?" He smiled thinly. "I trust you won't object to our avoiding a war if we can?"

Honor started to retort sharply, then made herself shake her head with a smile. She really shouldn't let Houseman get under her skin this way, she scolded herself. It wasn't his fault he'd been reared in a nice, safe, civilized society that protected him from the harsh reality of an older and grimmer set of imperatives. And foolish as she might think he was outside his own undoubted area of expertise, it wasn't as if he were in charge of the mission. That was Admiral Courvosier's responsibility, and she felt no qualms about his judgment.

Venizelos stepped into the brief lull, tactfully engaging Houseman in a discussion of the government's new taxation policies, and she turned her own head to speak to Lieutenant Commander DuMorne.

Blah blah blah blah Houseman gets owned who cares. He's completely unimportant except as an object of ridicule. It's a writing device Weber loves that I hate. He should knock it the gently caress off.

Anyways, next is a big exposition scene.

quote:

A rustle of movement swept the briefing room as Admiral Courvosier followed Honor into the compartment and her officers rose. The two of them walked to their chairs at the head of the table, then sat, followed a moment later by the others, and Honor let her eyes sweep the assembled faces.

Andreas Venizelos and Stephen DuMorne, her own exec and second lieutenant, represented Fearless. Honor's second in command, Commander Alice Truman of the light cruiser Apollo, sat beside Lieutenant Commander Lady Ellen Prevost, Apollo's exec, both of them as golden-haired as Honor was dark, and Commander Jason Alvarez of the destroyer Madrigal sat facing them, accompanied by his exec, Lieutenant Commander Mercedes Brigham. After Admiral Courvosier, Brigham was the oldest person in the compartment, and just as dark and weathered�and competent�looking as Honor remembered her. The escort force's most junior CO sat facing her from the end of the table: Commander Alistair McKeon of the destroyer Troubadour and his exec, Lieutenant Mason Haskins.

None of the admiral's civil service associates were present.

"All right, people," she said. "Thank you all for coming. I'll try not to use up any more of your time than I have to, but, as you all know, we'll be translating back into n-space for Yeltsin's Star tomorrow, and I wanted one last chance to meet with all of you and the Admiral before we do."

Heads nodded, though one or two of Honor's officers had been a bit taken aback initially by her taste for face-to-face meetings. Most senior officers preferred the convenience of electronic conferences, but Honor believed in personal contact. Even the best com conference, in her view, distanced the participants from one another. People sitting around the same table were more likely to feel part of the same unit, to be aware of one another, and spark the sorts of ideas and responses that made a command team more than the sum of its parts.

Or, she thought dryly, it seemed that way to her, anyway.

"In light of the fact that your mission is the primary one, Admiral," she went on, turning to Courvosier, "perhaps you'd care to begin?"

"Thank you, Captain." Courvosier looked around the table and smiled. "I'm sure by this time you're almost depressingly familiar with my mission brief, but I'd like to hit the high points one more time.

"First, of course, is the absolute importance of securing our relationship with Grayson. The government hopes we'll come home with a formal alliance, but they'll settle for anything that brings the Yeltsin System more fully into our sphere of influence and decreases Haven's access here.

"Second, remember that anything we say to the Grayson government will be filtered through their perception of the Masadan threat. Their navy and population are both smaller than Masada's, and whatever certain members of my own delegation may think�" a soft chuckle ran around the table "-they have no doubt that Masadan rhetoric about returning to their planet as conquerors is completely serious. It hasn't been that long since their last shooting war, and the current situation is very, very tense.

"Third, and in conjunction with the military balance of power in the region, remember your single small squadron masses seventy percent as much as the entire Grayson Navy. Given the relative backwardness of their technology, Fearless, alone, could annihilate everything they have in a stand-up battle. They're going to realize that, whether they want to admit it or not, but it's essential that we not rub their noses in their 'inferiority.' Make them aware of how useful we could be as allies, by all means, but don't let yourself or any of your people condescend to them."

He held them with level blue eyes, every centimeter the admiral despite his temporary civilian status, and his cherub face was deadly serious until heads nodded around the table.

"Good. And remember this�these people aren't from the same societal matrix as we are. They don't even come close. I know you've all studied your downloads, but be certain your crews are as aware of the differences as you are. In particular, our female personnel are going to have to be extremely careful in any contacts with the Graysons." Commander Truman grimaced, and Courvosier nodded. "I know, and if it seems foolish to us, imagine how much more foolish it's going to seem to some of your junior officers and ratings. But foolish or not, it's the way things are here, and we're the visitors. We must conduct ourselves as guests, and while I don't want anyone acting a millimeter less than fully professional at all times, regardless of gender, the mere fact that we have women in uniform�far less officers' uniforms�is going to be hard for them to accept."

Heads nodded once more, and he sat back in his chair.

"That just about covers it, Captain," he told Honor, "at least until I meet their representatives and have more of a feel for the situation."

"Thank you, Sir." Honor leaned forward and folded her hands on the table. "Aside from endorsing everything Admiral Courvosier just said, I have only one thing to say about Grayson. We're going to have to play things by ear, but our responsibility is to contribute to the Admiral's success, not to make waves. If there are problems with any representative of the Grayson government, or even a private Grayson citizen, I want to hear about it immediately�and not from the locals. There's no room here for prejudice from our side, however merited it may seem, and I'd better not hear about any. Is that clear?"

A quiet murmur of agreement answered, and she nodded.

"Good." She rubbed her left forefinger lightly across the back of her right hand and nodded. "All right, then, let's turn to our own schedule.

"We've got four Mandrake-class freighters to drop off at Yeltsin's Star, but we're not supposed to actually turn their cargoes over to Grayson until Admiral Courvosier's people have begun negotiations and released them. I don't anticipate any problem in that regard, but that means they'll remain our responsibility until we do hand them over, and that means we're going to have to leave at least some of the escort to keep an eye on them. In addition, of course, we're supposed to be a show of force, a sort of pointed reminder to the Grayson government of just how valuable the Navy can be to their security vis-a-vis Masada�or, for that matter, the Peeps.

"On the other hand, we've got five more ships going on to Casca. We'll have to send along a reasonable escort, given the reports of increased 'pirate' activity in the area, so my present thought is to keep Fearless here, as our most impressive unit, and send you and Apollo on to Casca in company with Troubadour, Alice." Commander Truman nodded. "With Alistair to scout for you, you should be able to handle anything you run into, and that will give me Jason and Madrigal to support Fearless. It'll take you a bit over a T-week to get there, but I want you back here ASAP. You won't have any freighters to slow you down on the return voyage, so I'll expect you back in eleven days.

"In the meantime, Jason," she moved her eyes to Alvarez, "you and I will operate on the theory that the Graysons know what they're talking about where Masada is concerned. It wouldn't be very bright of them to try anything against us, but unlike certain members of the Admiral's delegation, we're not going to take their rationality for granted." Another ripple of amusement flowed around the table. "I want our impellers hot at all times, and assuming we can arrange local leave, I don't want more than ten percent of our people dirt-side at any one time."

"Understood, Ma'am."

"All right, then. Does anyone else have anything to add?"

"I do, Skipper," McKeon said, and Honor cocked her head with a smile. "It just occurred to me to wonder, Ma'am�did anyone ever expressly tell the Graysons that, well, that our senior officer is a woman?"

"I don't know," Honor said, and the admission surprised her, for she hadn't even considered it. She turned to Courvosier. "Admiral?"

"No, we haven't," Courvosier replied with a frown. "Ambassador Langtry's been on Grayson for over three local years, and his advice was that making a point of explaining that we have female military personnel might be counterproductive. They're a proud, touchy lot�not least, I suspect, because, scared as they are of Masada, they know the real balance of power between them and the Kingdom as well as we do and resent their weakness. They don't want to be our supplicants, and they go out of their way to refuse to admit they may be. At any rate, Sir Anthony felt they might see it as some sort of slur, as if we were pointedly telling them how uncivilized we consider them. On the other hand, we transmitted a list of our ships and their COs to them, and their colonists came predominately from Old Earth's Western Hemisphere, just as our original settlers did. They certainly ought to recognize feminine names when they see them."

"I see." McKeon frowned, and Honor watched his face carefully. She knew Alistair well enough to see that something about the situation bothered him, but he chose to say nothing more, and she looked around the table again.

"Anything else?" she asked, and heads shook. "Very well, then, ladies and gentlemen, let's be about it."

She and Courvosier stood and led the way to the boat bay to see their visitors to their pinnaces and back to their own ships.

"No we haven't told the stupid chauvinists that we have female personnel, much less female officers, because they're a proud, touchy lot and it would be disrespectful to tell them. That's why we're sending a followup fleet with a female commander to explicitly rub it in their face."

Manticore is a pile of idiots all around.

"Let's Be About It" is Honor's catch phrase basically. I guess it's to make her sound cool or something. It's boring as poo poo. I looked it up to see if there was any source of it but nope it's a Weber origina lwhich explains a lot. And while doing so, I found some forum posts on an article that was called "Let's Be About It".

The Comment That I Wanted To Reproduce posted:

I have always found Weber to be unusual as a member of the Baen pantheon, which runs from pretty right wing (not atypical for hardcore military Science Fiction) to pretty reactionary to insane (eg Oh John Ringo No!). He is not as explicitly political, though he does love free market capitalism a lot.

On the other hand, Weber cannot resist the infodump - there are many long, and sometimes suprisingly complicated, technical descriptions that are presented as the musing or lectures of various characters ("Capt. Thundermountain thought of the advantages of using two rollers to mill grain. By reducing heat that caused grainocentisis, this would change the way flour production worked forever!" - except for 20 pages at a time). There are also some occasionally repetitive or annoying word choices, such as "thunderous thunder," and the fact that everyone is always "quirking" their eyebrows or lips.

If you like Weber, you may also like what I consider the best "fun" military science fiction series ever (also with strong female characters, etc) - The Praxis. Great space battles, sense of humor, and wonderful writing.

'Strong female characters', 'great space battles', 'great sense of humor', 'wonderful writing'. For all they're right in the middle paragraph, everything else is wrong. Especially with the idea that Weber is apoliticial. His politics are SUPER clear and obvious, he just tries to desperately hide behind I'M A CENTRIST when he's not.

Also that's the whole chapter.

Kchama fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Mar 9, 2020

# ? Mar 9, 2020 03:01

Kchama: Jul 25, 2007

Here! Have some more Honorverse!

HONOR OF THE QUEEN CHAPTER FOUR

This chapter is one of Weber's patented "Villian POV" chapters. It's different from the usual because this isn't the villian giving a pile of information, and then the next chapter being Honor learning the information, thus rendering all of his completely superfluous outside of showing the personality of a character who might have one or two scenes in the entire series.

Instead, it's just relaying everything from the previous chapters to the villian. So it kind of has the same problem. It does show off one of the rare things in this series...

quote:

Sword of the Faithful Matthew Simonds stumped angrily down the passage aboard his new flagship and reminded himself not to speak to Captain Yu like the heathen he was. He had no doubt Yu was going to be displeased by what he was about to hear, and though the captain was always exquisitely polite, he couldn't quite hide his feeling of superiority. That was particularly maddening in a man from such an ungodly culture, but the Church needed Yu, for a time, at least. Yet that wouldn't always be true, Simonds promised himself. The time would come when God delivered their true enemies into their hands at last. On that day infidel outsiders would no longer be necessary . . . and if these godless foreigners could create the conditions for Maccabeus to succeed, that day might come far sooner than they suspected.

The bridge hatch opened before him, and he summoned up a smile and made his irritated pace slow as he stepped through it.

Captain Alfredo Yu rose from the chair at the center of the magnificent command deck. He was a tall, slender man, overtopping Simonds by at least fifteen centimeters, comfortable and elegant in the scarlet and gold of the Navy of Masada, yet there was something subtly wrong with the way he came to attention. Not disrespectful or insolent, but simply different, as if he'd learned his military courtesy somewhere else.

Which, of course, was exactly what he had done.

"Good morning, Sir. This is an unexpected honor. How may I serve you?"

"Come into my briefing room, please," Simonds replied, somewhat mollified, despite himself, by Yu's unfailing courtesy.

"Of course, Sir. Commander Manning, you have the watch."

"Aye, Sir," the commander-not, Simonds noted with fresh grumpiness, a Masadan�acknowledged crisply, and Yu followed Simonds into the briefing room and turned an attentive countenance to him as the hatch closed behind them.

He doesn't talk or think identically to literally everyone else, as you'd customarily find in a Weber story. Thinking about it, both Safehold and thus series have it in common that the most likely reasons why two people will have a different voice is that they are of different religions. Which in Weber-verse means that everyone with a Bad-Guy religion talks like a brain-washed zealot.

It's pretty clear this is the case as the Graysons are literally just as much brainwashed fanatics who are mildly moderate compared to Masada, but they basically speak and think more akin to Manticoreans than Masadans.

Also I forgot to mention this last chapter when it was relevant, but the idea that Grayson wasn't aware that Manticore and other places have female officers is pretty funny considering the retcons that Grayson had close contact with everyone else for decades to the point that they were sending their heads of state to be educated across the universe. I don't think they even had FTL ships in this book.

quote:

Simonds studied that bland, waiting expression and wondered, not for the first time, what the mind behind those dark eyes thought. Yu had to know how critical he and his ship were to Masada's plans�or, at least, to the plans he knew about�and a third of Thunder of God's crew were still heathens filling the specialist roles no Masadan could. They looked to Yu for their orders, not Simonds, and not simply because he was the captain of their ship. Simonds had survived thirty years of internecine political and doctrinal warfare within Masada's theocracy, and he knew perfectly well Yu had his own superiors and his own agenda. So far, that agenda had marched side-by-side with the Faith's, yet what would happen on the day that was no longer true? It wasn't something Simonds liked to contemplate, but it was also something he had no choice but to ponder�and the reason it was so critical to handle Yu perfectly. When the time came for their ways to part, it must be on the Faithful's terms, not theirs.

He cleared his throat, banishing his moody thoughts, and waved at a chair.

"Sit, sit, Captain!"

Yu waited with punctilious courtesy until Simonds had taken his own seat, then dropped neatly into the indicated chair, and the Sword swallowed the bitter bile of envy at how easily Yu moved. The captain was ten years older than Simonds and looked half his age. Looked? Yu was half Simonds' age, physically, at least, for his people were so lost to God they saw no evil in tampering with His plan for their species. They used the prolong process liberally, among their military and ruling families, at least, and Simonds was disturbed by how much he envied them. The temptation to drink from that spring of youth was a deadly one. Perhaps it was as well Masada's medical community was incapable of duplicating it, even if that inability was one more galling indication of the things these infidels could do and the Faithful couldn't.

You know it's a shame that Simonds is just Generic Fanatic Villian Dude as he could have an actual interesting character arc but nope you've literally seen his entire one-note character. Oh, except for...

quote:

"We have a problem, Captain," he said at length.

"A problem, Sir?" Yu's foreign accent, with its longer vowels and sharper consonants, still fell strangely on Simonds' ear.

"Yes. Our agents on Grayson have just discovered that the convoy will arrive with a powerful escort."

"How powerful, Sir?" Yu asked, sitting straighter, and Simonds smiled sourly.

"We don't know yet�only that it will be 'powerful.' " He snorted. "We should have anticipated it, I suppose. Their bitch of a queen will guard her thirty pieces of silver well until Mayhew sells Grayson to her."

Sexism! The bad Masadan kind, that has a slur! Not the good kind, that Grayson has in spades.

quote:

Alfredo Yu nodded, carefully concealing his reaction to the savagery of Simonds' voice. The mere idea of a woman as a head of state appalled Masada�didn't the Bible itself say it was Eve's corruption which had tainted all humanity with sin?�and Simonds' disgust at the thought that even Grayson might consider allying itself with such a vile and unnatural regime was clear. Yet it probably gave him a certain horrified satisfaction, as well, for it must pander to his own sense of superiority as one more indication of Grayson's apostasy beside the uncorrupted fidelity of the Faithful. But Masadan bigotry was less important at the moment than the information that the convoy had a real escort to worry about, and the captain frowned in thought.

"Have you been able to discover anything about this escort's orders, Sir?"

"How can we?" the Sword grumbled in a deliberately sour voice. "It's hard enough to discover what the Apostate are up to! But we have to assume the Manticorans won't sit idly by while we eliminate their potential ally."

"They might, depending on their orders, Sir." Simonds' eyes flashed, and the captain shrugged. "I didn't say it was likely, Sir, only that it was possible. And I sincerely hope it is the case, under the circumstances."

Yu's quiet tone held a carefully measured bite, and Simonds flushed. Yu and his superiors had pressed the Council of Elders for weeks�respectfully, but strongly�to move forward on Operation Jericho. Simonds was more than a little frightened of taking the plunge himself, but he knew Yu had been right from a purely military viewpoint, and he'd said so. Not that it had mattered. The Council as a whole had been determined to wait until after the Manticoran bribe was delivered to Grayson. Their own ally, unable to match the efficiency of Manticoran industry, would have been hard pressed to provide the same sort of infrastructure boost, and the Elders, intent on gathering in that largess for Masada's benefit, had delayed too long.

Or perhaps not. Not even the majority of the Council of Elders knew everything, and the inner circle had its own reasons to delay. Of course, it was always possible that they'd waited too long, as well, but they had more than one way to their end. And even if it came down to the operation everyone else expected, the escorts would withdraw with their unloaded freighters once the clique ruling Grayson had sold what was left of their souls as the vassals of infidels who let themselves be ruled by women. There would be a window, however brief, between the signing of the draft treaty and its ratification. If the Faithful struck then, before the treaty was formalized, and eliminated the government which would have ratified it . . .

"The Council of Elders is unanimous on this, Captain." The Sword made himself sound pleasant. "Until and unless we can confirm that the Manticoran escort commander has orders not to intervene, we will postpone Jericho."

"With all due respect, Sir, their escort would have to be very powerful to offset Thunder's presence in our own order of battle. Particularly when they don't know we have her."

"But if they intervene, Jericho will result in a shooting confrontation with Manticore, and we can't possibly stand off the Royal Manticoran Navy."

You know, it occurs to me, but it doesn't make any sense that Grayson would instinctively know how bad it is to deal with Haven any better than Masada does. Masada would be the ones less intent on working with Haven, because they are intensely xenophobic. So the idea that Haven went to talk to them first knowing they'd be more interested in it strikes me as just an excuse to have the factions divided up equally.

quote:

"Not alone, no, Sir," Yu agreed, and Simonds bared his teeth in a tight grin of understanding. He knew where Yu was headed�and he had no intention of following him there. The Council of Elders wouldn't thank the Sword for creating a situation in which their continued existence depended upon Yu's true masters dispatching a powerful fleet to "protect" them! They would become little more than prisoners under house arrest if they allowed that to happen�which would no doubt suit their "ally's" purposes perfectly. Not that he could say that to Yu.

"There's too much room for error in precipitate action, Captain," he said instead. "Manticore is much closer than your friends are. If it came to open combat and any of their ships escaped, their reinforcements would get here before yours could. Under those circumstances, even a victory would be a disaster. And, of course," he added, "it's much too late for us to preposition Republican naval units here before we launch Jericho."

"I see." Yu leaned back in his chair and folded his arms. "What does the Council want to do instead, then?"

"We'll proceed with the planning and initial deployments for Jericho, but we won't mount the actual operation until the Manticoran escort withdraws."

"And if it doesn't withdraw, Sir? Or if they replace it with a regular picket force before it does?"

"We believe that to be unlikely�and the risk of precipitating open war with Manticore outweighs the possibility." It was Simonds' turn to lean back. While there were things it would never do for the captain to learn, it was time for a few unambiguous, if carefully chosen, words, he decided.

"Captain Yu, your superiors' objectives and ours are not identical. We both know that, and much as we appreciate your help, the Council isn't blind to the fact that you're helping us because it suits your own purposes."

Simonds paused while Yu cocked his head. Then he nodded, and the Sword's smile turned more genuine. Infidel or not, there was a core of frankness in the captain, and Simonds appreciated it.

"Very well, then," he continued. "We know your fundamental objective is to keep Manticore out of the region, and we're willing to guarantee that outcome after our victory. We are not, however, prepared to risk the survival of the True Faith in pursuit of it. We've waited over six centuries to crush the Apostate; if we must, we can wait another six, because unlike you, if you'll forgive my frankness, we know God is on our side."

"I see." Yu pursed his lips, then shrugged. "Sir, my orders are to support your decisions, but I'm also charged with advising you on the best use of Thunder and Principality in pursuit of our common goals. Obviously, that includes giving you my honest opinion of the best timing for Jericho, and frankly, the best timing has already escaped us. I hope my saying that doesn't offend you, but I'm a military man, not a diplomat. As such, my first concern must be avoiding misunderstandings, not the formal nuances of courtesy."

"I realize that, Captain, and I appreciate it," Simonds said, and, in fact, he did. He might worry about his blood pressure when Yu disagreed too bluntly with him, and keeping him ignorant of Maccabeus made things much harder all around, but it was far better to hear the man out, heathen or no, than drive him into working behind Simonds' back.

"Within those limitations, then," Yu continued, "I must respectfully argue that God helps those who help themselves. This 'escort force' may not withdraw at all, at least until it's time to convey Manticore's diplomats home, and even a draft treaty of alliance might very well bring the Manticorans in against you if you hit Grayson after their delegation leaves. I believe the probability that a binding alliance between them will make any future action far more dangerous must be balanced against the possibility that the escort's current orders are simply to protect the convoy and their own representatives."

"You may be correct, Captain," Simonds admitted, "but that supposes that we act openly at all. The Council believes�rightly, I think�that even if they sign their cursed treaty it will be primarily defensive. Without a Manticoran guarantee to support offensive action, the Apostate won't dare attack us alone, and one thing the Faithful have learned is patience. We would prefer to be your friends and to strike now, but if doing so jeopardizes the security of the Faith, we're prepared to wait. Sooner or later you and Manticore will settle your differences, one way or the other, and Manticore's interest in this region will wane. Either way, our chance will come in time."

"Perhaps, Sir�and perhaps not. As you say, you've waited six centuries, but those have been six centuries of relative peace in this region. The odds are very high that that peace will soon be a thing of the past. My superiors hope and believe that any war with Manticore will be short, but we can't positively guarantee that, and Endicott and Yeltsin's Star will be caught squarely between us when the shooting starts. If Manticore secures base rights in Yeltsin, that shooting is almost certain to move right onto your doorstep, with consequences no one can predict."

Simonds tasted the distant tang of iron in the captain's measured words. Yu was being careful not to say that one of those consequences might well be the annexation of both star systems by Masada's present "ally," but they both knew what he meant.

"Under the circumstances, Sir," Yu went on quietly, "it's my opinion that any operation which promises a significant chance of victory now is well worth a few risks. From our perspective, it relieves us of the necessity of dealing with an advanced enemy base squarely in our path to Manticore; from your perspective, it avoids the high probability that your star system will be caught in the crossfire at a later date."

"There's a great deal of truth in that, Captain," Simonds conceded, "and I'll certainly bear it in mind when next I speak with the Council. On the other hand, some of the Elders may feel your victory over Manticore is less assured than you seem to believe."

"Nothing is ever assured in war, Sir, but we're far bigger than they are, with a much larger fleet. And, as you yourself have pointed out, Manticore is weak and degenerate enough to allow a woman to hold the reins of power."

Simonds twitched, face flushing, and Yu hid a smile. The Sword would undoubtedly recognize the manipulation of that last sentence, but it appealed too strongly to the man's intolerance for him to simply shrug it off as someone from a more civilized culture might.

Simonds swallowed a harsh remark and looked long and hard at the captain, sensing the smile behind those courteous eyes. He knew Yu didn't believe his own dismissal of Manticore's degeneracy . . . but, then, Yu himself sprang from a degenerate society. The People's Republic of Haven was even more corrupt than most foreigners, yet the Faithful were willing to use any tool that was offered for God's Work. And when one used a tool, one need not tell it of all of one's other tools. Especially not when the object was to use one of them to displace another at the proper time, and Haven's cynical ambition was too barefaced, and far too voracious, for anyone to trust. That was the very reason anything Yu said, however professional and reasonable, must be examined again and again before it was accepted.

"Your point is well taken, Captain," the Sword said after a moment, "and, as I say, the Elders and I will consider it carefully. I believe the decision to wait until the Manticoran escort withdraws will stand, but I also feel certain God will guide us to the correct decision in the end."

"As you say, Sir," Yu replied. "My superiors may not share your religion, Sword Simonds, but we respect your beliefs."

"We're aware of that, Captain." Simonds said, though he didn't for a moment believe Yu's superiors respected the Faith. But that was acceptable. Masada was accustomed to dealing with unbelievers, and if Yu was sincere, if Haven did, indeed, believe in the religious tolerance it prated about, then their society was even more degenerate than Simonds had believed.

There could be no compromise with those who rejected one's own beliefs, for compromise and coexistence only opened the door to schism. A people or a faith divided against itself became the sum of its weaknesses, not its strengths, and anyone who didn't know that was doomed.

About the only good thing to say about Simonds is that he is actually pretty smart for a Weber villain.

Also again, this is basically the only chapter that reads differently than any others.

# ? Mar 9, 2020 05:20

Beefeater1980: Sep 12, 2008; My God, it's full of Horatios!

Ugly In The Morning posted:

The audiobook is available on Kindle Unlimited if you prefer to read text over listen (I don�t know why but I can never really absorb an audiobook). It is indeed way better than a video game novel has any right to be.

�It was ruthless and it was dark and I did not eat it� is the purest poetry and I love everything about this.

# ? Mar 9, 2020 06:07

Stereo: Feb 27, 2014; Get rekt son

Last year I read all of the main series Harrington books up to War of Honor, where I got burnt out again. They're not the worst things I've read but I agree the writing can be lacking and often repetitive.

While I will finish the series one day, does anyone have any recommendations for other good space navy/battle type series?

# ? Mar 9, 2020 20:54

jng2058: Jul 17, 2010; We have the tools, we have the talent!

Stereo posted:

Last year I read all of the main series Harrington books up to War of Honor, where I got burnt out again. They're not the worst things I've read but I agree the writing can be lacking and often repetitive.

While I will finish the series one day, does anyone have any recommendations for other good space navy/battle type series?

I dunno how many good ones there are. If anyone finds one, let me know. The Starfire books "In Death Ground" and "The Shiva Option" by Weber and White are adequate, bordering on pretty good. The rest of the books in the series, not so much, though I haven't read most of the ones that White's done on his own after Weber left for bigger and better things. Maybe they get better? :shrug:

John Campbell's "The Lost Fleet" series has some neat elements to it, but gets astoundingly repetitive from book to book. Pick one book in the series and enjoy it, but then skip the rest....they're pretty much the same book over and over.

The "Vatta's War" books by Elizabeth Moon have some decent space battle stuff, especially in the latter books, but it's like 10% space battles, and 90% a lot of other things, including a whole pile of space merchant stuff in the first book.

# ? Mar 9, 2020 21:18

Stereo: Feb 27, 2014; Get rekt son

jng2058 posted:

I dunno how many good ones there are. If anyone finds one, let me know. The Starfire books "In Death Ground" and "The Shiva Option" by Weber and White are adequate, bordering on pretty good. The rest of the books in the series, not so much, though I haven't read most of the ones that White's done on his own after Weber left for bigger and better things. Maybe they get better?

John Campbell's "The Lost Fleet" series has some neat elements to it, but gets astoundingly repetitive from book to book. Pick one book in the series and enjoy it, but then skip the rest....they're pretty much the same book over and over.

The "Vatta's War" books by Elizabeth Moon have some decent space battle stuff, especially in the latter books, but it's like 10% space battles, and 90% a lot of other things, including a whole pile of space merchant stuff in the first book.

Yep, I read I think the first 3 or 4 Lost Fleet and as you said, got fairly bored.

I'll check the others out! Also not married to the navy battles, I did really enjoy Mark Kloos's frontlines series!

# ? Mar 9, 2020 21:42

90s Cringe Rock: Nov 29, 2006

Stereo posted:

Last year I read all of the main series Harrington books up to War of Honor, where I got burnt out again. They're not the worst things I've read but I agree the writing can be lacking and often repetitive.

While I will finish the series one day, does anyone have any recommendations for other good space navy/battle type series?

Go read The Last Angel and the sequel. Ok they're not published, but the second book's done and third book in the trilogy hasn't started yet so it's a good time.

# ? Mar 9, 2020 21:48

Kchama: Jul 25, 2007

A warning about the Starfire books, they're based on the same tabletop game that the Honorverse is (secretly) based on.

# ? Mar 9, 2020 21:58

Kchama: Jul 25, 2007

I'm going to keep posting these until someone reads them!

HONOR OF THE QUEEN CHAPTER FIVE

In this chapter, Honor finally makes it to Grayson! The plot kind of begins here, which is a lot quicker than On Basilisk Station where the plot basically languished for a long time, even after they got to Basilisk Station.

Thinking about it, Honor never really was ON Basilisk Station, was she? She was actually always doing stuff away from it and just messaged Basilisk Station a lot.

Anyways, let's be about it people! Let's be about it, people! I'm sure it sounds super badass, so I have to say it a lot.

quote:

Hyper space's rippling energy fluxes and flurries of charged particles hashed any sensor beyond a twenty-light-minute radius, but the convoy's clustered light codes were clear and sharp and gratifyingly tight on Honor's maneuvering display as it approached the hyper limit of Yeltsin's Star at a comfortable third of light-speed.

The translation from n-space to hyper was speed critical�at anything above .3 C, dimensional shear would tear a ship apart�but the reverse wasn't true. Which didn't make high-speed downward translations pleasant. The energy bleed as the convoy crossed each hyper wall would slow them to a crawl long before they reached the alpha bands, and shear wasn't a factor as far as hardware was concerned, but the effect on humans was something else again. Naval crews were trained for crash translations, yet there was a limit to what training could do to offset the physical distress and violent nausea, and there was no point in putting anyone�especially her merchant crews�through that.

I don't think that bit is ever relevant. It is, thankfully, put in a place where it is actually a decent place to serve up the information and thankfully brief for Weber.

quote:

"Ready to begin translation in forty-one seconds, Ma'am," Lieutenant Commander DuMorne reported from Astrogation.

"Very well, Mr. DuMorne. The con is yours."

"Aye, aye, Ma'am. I have the con. Helm, prepare for initial translation on my mark."

"Ready for translation, aye," Chief Killian replied, and the helmsman's hand hovered over the manual override, just in case the astrogator's computers dropped the ball, while Honor leaned back to watch.

"Mark!" DuMorne said crisply, and the normally inaudible hum of Fearless's hyper generator became a basso growl.

Honor swallowed against a sudden ripple of nausea as the visual display altered abruptly. The endlessly shifting patterns of hyper space were no longer slow; they flickered, jumping about like poorly executed animation, and her readouts flashed steadily downward as the entire convoy plummeted "down" the hyper space gradient.

Fearless hit the gamma wall, and her Warshawski sails bled transit energy like an azure forest fire. Her velocity dropped almost instantly from .3 C to a mere nine percent of light-speed, and Honor's stomach heaved as her inner ear rebelled against a speed loss the rest of her senses couldn't even detect. DuMorne's calculations had allowed for the energy bleed, and their translation gradient steepened even further as their velocity fell. They hit the beta wall four minutes later, and Honor winced again�less violently this time�as their velocity bled down to less than two percent of light-speed. The visual display was a fierce chaos of heaving light as the convoy fell straight "down" across a "distance" which had no physical existence, and then they hit the alpha bands and flashed across them to the n-space wall like a comet.

Her readouts stopped blinking. The visual display was suddenly still, filled once more with the unwinking pinpricks of normal-space stars, the sense of nausea faded almost as quickly as it had come, and HMS Fearless's velocity had dropped in less than ten minutes from ninety thousand kilometers per second to a bare hundred and forty.

Honor drew a deep breath and suppressed the automatic urge to shake her head in relief. One or two people around the bridge were doing just that, but the old hands were as purposely blas� about it as she herself. It was silly, of course, but there were appearances to maintain.

Her lips twitched at the familiar thought, and she glanced at her astrogation repeater. Stephen had done his usual bang-up job, and Fearless and her charges floated twenty-four light-minutes from Yeltsin's Star, just outside the F6's hyper limit. Even the best hyper log was subject to some error, and the nature of hyper space precluded any observations to correct, but the voyage had been relatively short and DuMorne had shaved his safety margin with an expert touch.

She pressed a com stud on her chair arm while he took normal-space fixes to refine their position, and the voice of her chief engineer answered.

"Engineering, Commander Higgins."

"Reconfigure to impeller drive, please, Mr. Higgins."

"Aye, aye, Ma'am. Reconfiguring now," Higgins acknowledged, and Fearless folded her Warshawski sails into her impeller wedge.

There was no internal sign of the change, but Honor's engineering readouts and visual display told the tale. Unlike Warshawski sails, which were invisible in normal space except for the brief moment in which they radiated the energy bleed of a translation, the stressed gravity bands of an impeller drive were almost painfully obvious. Now they sprang into existence above and below Fearless, angled towards one another in a wedge open both ahead and astern, and stars red-shifted as a gravity differential of a hundred thousand MPS2 grabbed at their photons. The cruiser floated within her wedge, like a surfer poised in the curl of a wave which hadn't yet begun to move, and Honor watched her communications officer.

Lieutenant Metzinger pressed the fingers of her right hand gently against her earbug, then looked up.

"All ships report reconfigured to impeller, Ma'am."

"Thank you, Joyce." Honor's eyes moved to the blue-green light code of the planet Grayson, ten and a half light-minutes further in-system, and then to DuMorne. "May I assume, Mr. DuMorne, that, with your usual efficiency, you now have a course worked out for Grayson?"

"You, may, Ma'am." DuMorne returned her smile. "Course is one-one-five by�" he double-checked his position and tapped a minute correction into his computers "�zero-zero-four-point-zero-niner. Acceleration is two-zero-zero gravities with turnover in approximately two-point-seven hours."

"Lay it in, Chief Killian."

"Aye, aye, Ma'am. Coming to one-one-five, zero-zero-four-point-zero-niner."

"Thank you. Com, pass our course to all ships, please."

"Aye, aye, Ma'am." Metzinger dumped figures from DuMorne's computers to the rest of the convoy. "Course acknowledged and validated by all units," she reported a moment later. "Convoy ready to proceed."

"Very good. Are we ready, Helm?"

"Yes, Ma'am. Standing by for two-zero-zero gravities."

"Then let's be on our way, Chief."

"Aye, aye, Ma'am. Underway."

There was no discernible sense of movement as Fearless gathered speed at just under two kilometers per second per second, for her inertial compensator allowed her to cheat Newton shamelessly.

Two hundred gravities was a leisurely lope for Fearless, less than half of what she could have turned out even at the eighty percent "max" power settings the Manticoran Navy normally used, but it was the highest safe acceleration for Honor's freighters. Merchantmen were far larger yet had much weaker impeller drives than warships, with proportionately less powerful compensators.

She looked back at Metzinger.

"Hail Grayson Traffic Control, please, Joyce."

"Aye, aye, Ma'am. Transmitting now."

"Thank you." Honor leaned back in her command chair, propped her elbows on its arms, and steepled her fingers under her pointed chin. It would take her hail over ten minutes to reach Grayson, and as she watched the distant, gleaming marble swell with infinitesimal speed in the visual display, she wondered how much of a problem her gender would actually be.

... Until you read the rest of this and discover that the entire scene is just a long "This is how hypering works". Pretty pointless otherwise.

Anyways they reach Grayson and POV goes to Grayson. I will note that this book has actually had proper scene seperators, unlike the first one. I don't know if they just got better at making these official e-books.

quote:

High Admiral Bernard Yanakov looked up from his reader as his aide rapped gently on the frame of the open door.

"Yes, Jason?"

"Tracking just picked up a hyper footprint right on the limit, Sir. We don't have impeller confirmation yet, but I thought you'd want to know."

"You thought correctly." Yanakov switched off the reader and rose, twitched his blue tunic straight, and picked up his peaked cap. Lieutenant Andrews moved out of his way, then fell in beside and slightly behind him as he strode briskly towards Command Central.

The chatter of voices and old-fashioned impact printers met them as they stepped through the soundproofed door, and Yanakov hid a grimace, for the clattering printers were even more primitive than those the original colonists had brought from Old Earth. They did the job, but they were one more indication of how far Grayson's technology had backslid. It wasn't something that usually bothered the Admiral, but today wasn't usual. That footprint almost had to be the Manticoran convoy, and his planet's backwardness would be embarrassingly apparent to their visitors.

They aren't 'old-fashioned' then. They're CURRENT-fashioned. I don't mind him being embarrassed that his tech is backwards but there's no indication that they have lesser technology because they haven't met the Manticoreans yet.

Also the later books reveal that actually Grayson is actually more advanced than the rest of the universe in a bunch of fields, which doesn't really make sense.

quote:

Crimson status lights caught his eye, and he nodded in satisfaction. Until they knew for certain that that footprint was the convoy, the Grayson Navy would assume it was a Masadan attack force. The unscheduled drill would do all hands good . . . and given the current levels of tension, Yanakov had no intention of taking any chances with his home world's security.

Commodore Brentworth looked up as Yanakov crossed to him.

"Passive sensors just registered incoming impeller drives, Admiral," he said briskly, and a light glowed on the master system display behind him. Tiny letters and numerals beside it detailed numbers and accelerations, and Yanakov grunted softly as he studied them.

"Numbers and formation match the Manticoran convoy, Sir. Of course, we only have them on gravitics now, not light-speed sensors. We won't hear anything from the com for another eight minutes or so."

"Understood, Walt." Yanakov watched the board a moment longer, then glanced at his aide. "Alert my cutter for immediate liftoff, Jason, and inform Grayson I'll be arriving aboard shortly."

"Yes, Sir." Andrews vanished, and Yanakov turned back to the board. Austin Grayson would be small and antiquated beside the Star Knight cruiser heading the Manticoran escort, but she was still the flagship of the Grayson Navy, and he would greet their guests from his flag deck, where he belonged.

As I talked about before, Grayson's people talk and think just like Manticoreans, despite the fact that their religion is just as paramount in their lives as it is in the Masadans. In one of the Pearls of Weber I'll have to find - the regular page for them is down and they're only at Weber's own page without any sort of index now - Weber tries to say that the Grayson's have been so successful theologically because they're incredibly tolerant - except, of course, he specifies that their toleration basically goes as far as 'slight differences in believes' and if you actually aren't all-in for their religion, then bad things will happen to you. Which paints a very different picture than the one Weber wants to give Grayson, who he doesn't think are religious fanatics for some reason.

quote:

Grayson looked oddly patchy in the visual display as Fearless and her brood settled into their parking orbit, and Honor had been amazed on the trip in-system by the scale of Grayson's spaceborne industry. For a technically backward system, Yeltsin's Star boasted an amazing number of bulk carriers and processing ships. None of them appeared hyper capable, and the largest massed barely a million tons, but they were everywhere, and some of the orbital structures circling Grayson itself were at least a third the size of Hephaestus or Vulcan back home. No doubt the scale of the orbital construction projects also explained the plethora of energy sources and drive signatures plying between Grayson and the local asteroid belt, but the sheer numbers of them still came as a shock.

I'm not sure why it's such a shock. Surely Manticore would have a massive plethora of much bigger ships. It'd be more likely Honor would have a more Solarian League view of "Impressive, for neo-barbs".

quote:

Fearless cut her wedge as Chief Killian signaled "done with engines" and station-keeping thrusters took over, and Honor frowned over her displays while a corner of her mind monitored the flow of communications between the planetary authorities and Admiral Courvosier's staff on the heavy cruiser's flag bridge. Everything she saw only seemed to underscore the strange�to Manticoran eyes, at least�dichotomy between the almost incredible energy of Grayson's activities and the crudity with which they were carried out.

Old-fashioned electric arc and laser welders glared and sputtered, despite the wastefulness of such primitive, energy-intensive techniques compared to modern chem-catalyst welders. Hard-suited construction crews heaved massive frame members around, overcoming mass and momentum by brute muscle power without the tractor/counter-grav exo-suits Manticoran workers would have used as a matter of course, and it took her a while to realize (and even longer to accept) that some of them were using rivet guns. The local orbital power receptors were huge and clumsy and looked none too efficient, and her sensors said at least half the structures out there were using fission power plants! Fission plants weren't just old-fashioned; they were dangerous technical antiques, and their presence baffled her. The original Church of Humanity's colony ship had used fusion power, so why were the colonists' descendants using fission power nine hundred years later?

Modern chem-catalyst welders, huh?

quote:

She shook her head and turned her attention to the nearest complete habitat. It rotated slowly about its central axis, but it obviously boasted internal grav generators, for the spin was far too slow to produce anything like a useful gravity. In fact, there was something peculiar about that leisurely, almost trickling movement. Could it be that�?

She punched a query into her tactical display, and her puzzlement grew as CIC confirmed her suspicion. That structure was spinning on its axis exactly once per local planetary day, which seemed very odd, and it glittered like a huge, faceted gem as Yeltsin's light bounced off unusually vast stretches of transparent hull. She frowned and leaned closer to her visual display, zooming in on an enormous surface dome, a blister of transparency over a kilometer across, and her eyes widened. The designers had used something like old-fashioned Venetian blinds, not the self-polarizing anti-rad armorplast Honor was used to; now the "blinds" were half-open on the nearer side of the dome as it rotated its way towards "evening," and she stared at the image for a long, disbelieving moment.

That wasn't an orbital habitat after all. Or, rather, it wasn't a habitat for people. She watched the herd of cattle graze across a knee-high meadow on what had to be one of the most expensive "farms" in the explored galaxy, then shook her head again�this time with slowly dawning comprehension. So that was why they were building so many orbital installations!

She turned back to the planet, and the peculiar splotchiness of its coloration really registered for the first time. Grayson's land surface was the life-breathing green of chlorophyll, with very few patches of desert, but most of it was a rich, blue-toned green, darker than anything Honor was used to seeing. Lighter patches, with suspiciously neat and regular boundaries, broke the darkness up, but the lighter areas were centered on what were obviously cities and towns, and all of those habitations were well inland. Grayson's seas were a deep and sparkling blue, painfully similar to those of Honor's native Sphinx, yet there were no cities along those bright, white beaches, and she nodded to herself as she realized why.

Grayson was, as Admiral Courvosier had said, a lovely planet. Its colors had a rich, jewel-like tone rare even among life-bearing worlds, and despite its thirteen and a half light-minute orbital radius, its brilliant star and minimal axial tilt gave it surface temperatures and weather patterns any resort planet might envy. But beautiful as it was, Grayson had never been intended as a home for man. It was considerably smaller than Old Earth, yet its mass was almost Earth Standard, for it was rich in heavy elements. Dangerously rich. So rich its plant life fixed arsenic and cadmium, mercury and lead, and passed those same elements on to the herbivores who ate it. So rich its seas weren't merely "salt" but a brew of naturally occurring toxins that made merely swimming in them potentially lethal. No wonder Grayson's people lived inland, and Honor hated even to think of the unremitting struggle they must face to "decontaminate" the soil that supported those lighter green patches of terrestrial food crops.

Honor's parents were doctors, and she shuddered at the potential for neural and genetic damage Grayson's environment offered. It must be like living in a chemical waste dump, and these people had lived here for nine centuries. No wonder they built farms in outer space�if she'd been they, she would have moved her entire population into orbit! The sheer beauty of their planet must make its dangers even harder to endure . . . and a still more bitter cosmic joke. Austin Grayson's followers had come five hundred and thirty light-years to escape the technology they believed polluted their birth world and racial soul only to find this poisonous jewel of a planet at journey's end.

She shuddered and turned away from that gorgeous, deadly view to concentrate on her tactical display. The local naval units which had come out to greet them had decelerated to match vectors with the convoy; now they shared Fearless's orbit, and she knew she was studying them to avoid looking at their homeworld until she could come to terms with its reality.

Most of them were light attack craft, purely sublight intrasystem vessels, the largest massing barely eleven thousand tons. The LACs were dwarfed by their light cruiser flagship, yet however large she might be beside her diminutive consorts, the cruiser was only a little over ninety thousand tons, barely two-thirds the size of Alice Truman's Apollo. She was also thirty years old, but Honor's last command had been even smaller and older, and she could only approve of the crisp deft way the Graysons had maneuvered to rendezvous with her own command. Those ships might be old and technically inferior, but their crews knew what they were doing.

She sighed and leaned back, glancing around her bridge once more. Admiral Courvosier's staff had handled all message traffic, but she'd monitored it at his invitation, and she'd been relieved by the genuine welcome in Admiral Yanakov's voice. Maybe this wasn't going to be as bad as she'd feared�and even if it was, her new insight into the environment from whence these people sprang should certainly temper her own reaction.

"Admiral Yanakov will arrive in six minutes, Skipper," Lieutenant Metzinger said suddenly, and Honor nodded. She pressed a button, and her command chair displays folded into their storage positions.

"I think it's time you and I got down to the boat bay to join the Admiral and greet our guests, Exec."

"Yes, Ma'am." Andreas Venizelos climbed out of his own chair and joined her as she headed for the bridge lift.

"Mr. DuMorne, you have the watch."

"Aye, aye, Ma'am. I have the watch," DuMorne replied, and moved from his station to the command chair as the lift door slid shut behind her.

Basically another infodump scene, but it's honestly better than stopping a far more important scene for it. That's your introduction to the good guy chauvinists.

quote:

High Admiral Yanakov tasted pure, undiluted envy as HMS Fearless swelled before him. Now that was a warship, he thought, drinking in the sleek, double-ended spindle appreciatively. The big, powerful ship hung against the bottomless stars, gleaming with reflected sunlight, and she was the most beautiful thing he'd ever seen. Her impeller wedge and defensive sidewalls were down, displaying her arrogant grace to the naked eye, and her midships section swelled smoothly between the bands of her fore and aft impeller rings, bristling with state-of-the-art radar and gravitic arrays and passive sensor systems. Her hull number�CA 286�stood out boldly against the white hull just aft of her forward impeller nodes, and weapon bays ran down her armored flank like watching eyes.

His cutter shivered as one of the cruiser's tractors locked on, and his pilot cut his thrusters as they slid into the bright cavern of Fearless's boat bay. The tractor deposited the small craft neatly in a cradle, the docking collar nestled into place, and the pressure signal buzzed, indicating a solid seal.

Lieutenant Andrews and his staff fell in behind him as the Admiral swam down the access tube, and he smiled as he saw the Manticoran rating stationed diplomatically by the scarlet-hued grab bar just short of the tube's end. The rating started to speak, but stopped himself as he saw Yanakov already reaching for the bar. The Grayson Navy used green, not scarlet, but the Admiral recognized the meaning of the color code and swung himself nimbly across the interface into the cruiser's internal gravity. He stepped out of the way, moving forward to make room for his staff, and the shrill of the bosun's pipes greeted him as he cleared the tube hatch.

The boat bay gallery was huge compared to the one he'd left behind aboard Grayson, but it seemed absolutely filled with people. The Marine honor guard snapped to attention in its green-and-black dress uniforms, naval personnel in the black and gold of the Royal Manticoran Navy saluted sharply, and Yanakov blinked in surprise.

The damned ship was crewed by children! The oldest person in sight couldn't be over thirty T-years old, and most of them looked like they were barely out of high school!

Trained reflex took his hand through an answering salute even as the thought flashed through his mind, and then he kicked himself. Of course they weren't children; he'd forgotten the prolong treatment was universally available to Manticorans. But what did he do now? He wasn't that familiar with Manticoran naval insignia, and how did he pick the senior officers out of this morass of juvenile delinquents?

Part of the problem answered itself as a small, round-faced man in civilian clothing stepped forward. Logic suggested he had to be the delegation head, and that meant he was Admiral Raoul Courvosier. At least he looked like an adult�there was even gray in his hair�but he was far less impressive than Yanakov had anticipated. He'd read every article and lecture of Courvosier's he could find, and this smiling man looked more like an elf than the brilliant, sharp-eyed strategist the admiral had anticipated, but-

"Welcome aboard, High Admiral," Courvosier said, clasping Yanakov's hand firmly, and his deep voice, unlike his face, was exactly what Yanakov had envisioned. The crisp accent sounded odd�Grayson's long isolation had produced one which was much softer and slower paced�but its very oddness was somehow right and fitting.

"Thank you, Admiral Courvosier, and allow me, in the name of my government and people, to welcome you to our system."

Yanakov returned the handclasp while his staff assembled itself behind him. Then he glanced around the crowded gallery once more and stiffened. He'd known Manticore allowed women to serve in its military, but it had been an intellectual thing. Now he realized almost half the people around him�even some of the Marines!�were female. He'd tried to prepare himself for the alien concept, but the deep, visceral shock echoing deep inside him told him he'd failed. It wasn't just alien, it was unnatural, and he tried to hide his instinctive repugnance as he dragged his eyes back to Courvosier's face.

"On behalf of my Queen, I thank you," his host said, and Yanakov managed to bow pleasantly despite the reminder that a woman ruled Manticore. "I hope my visit will bring our two nations still closer together," Courvosier continued, "and I'd like to present my staff to you. But first, permit me to introduce Fearless's captain and our escort commander."

Someone stepped up beside Courvosier, and Yanakov turned to extend his hand, then froze. He felt his smile congeal as he saw the strong, beautiful, young face under the white beret and the tight-curled fuzz of silky brown hair. Yanakov was unusually tall for a Grayson, but the officer before him was at least twelve centimeters taller than he was, and that made it irrationally worse. He fought his sense of shock as he stared into the Manticoran captain's dark, almond eyes, furious that no one had warned him, knowing he was gaping and embarrassed by his own frozen immobility�and perversely angry with himself because of his embarrassment.

"High Admiral Yanakov, allow me to present Captain Honor Harrington," Courvosier said, and Yanakov heard the hissing gasp of his staff's utter disbelief behind him.

This is where the chapter ends. Also, you heard it here, folks: Manticoreans are ELVES.

# ? Mar 10, 2020 00:37

FuturePastNow: May 19, 2014

Kchama posted:

A warning about the Starfire books, they're based on the same tabletop game that the Honorverse is (secretly) based on.

They're prototypes for this series in many ways; many of the Starfire characters are clearly the same people in the Honorverse, down to the similar names.

That said, it's closer to its source material, and Weber has a co-author to keep him on track, so Starfire is better at getting down to the business of fleets of starships shooting missiles at each other without the B-plots Honor has.

# ? Mar 10, 2020 00:55

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

Kchama posted:

Thinking about it, Honor never really was ON Basilisk Station, was she? She was actually always doing stuff away from it and just messaged Basilisk Station a lot.

"Basilisk Station" isn't a piece of physical infrastructure like, say, Deep Space Nine. She was stationed at the Basilisk System, and therefore was "on Basilisk station".

Kchama posted:

I don't think that bit is ever relevant. It is, thankfully, put in a place where it is actually a decent place to serve up the information and thankfully brief for Weber.

I think you're right that the speed limit for going into hyper never comes up again, but crash downward translations and the physical discomfort they cause do show up with some frequency.

Kchama posted:

They aren't 'old-fashioned' then. They're CURRENT-fashioned. I don't mind him being embarrassed that his tech is backwards but there's no indication that they have lesser technology because they haven't met the Manticoreans yet.

Also the later books reveal that actually Grayson is actually more advanced than the rest of the universe in a bunch of fields, which doesn't really make sense.

Uh, as I believe you yourself pointed out, Grayson clearly has had prior contact with the rest of human space, since some of their upper crust were sent to Harvard, so it's perfectly plausible they'd be aware of the tech imbalance.

As for their advancements, I can only remember two things the Graysons are credited for being better at: inertial compensators and fission generators, the former because they stumbled onto a more effective design, and the latter because they kept using and refining fission while everyone else switched to fusion.

Kchama posted:

I'm not sure why it's such a shock. Surely Manticore would have a massive plethora of much bigger ships. It'd be more likely Honor would have a more Solarian League view of "Impressive, for neo-barbs".

... Yes. The text literally told you that was why she was impressed, in the very passage you quoted: "For a technically backward system, Yeltsin's Star boasted an amazing number of bulk carriers and processing ships." You're so determined to find fault with Weber's writing that you invent them where they don't exist.

# ? Mar 10, 2020 01:38

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 02:33

Kchama: Jul 25, 2007

Anshu posted:

"Basilisk Station" isn't a piece of physical infrastructure like, say, Deep Space Nine. She was stationed at the Basilisk System, and therefore was "on Basilisk station".

I think you're right that the speed limit for going into hyper never comes up again, but crash downward translations and the physical discomfort they cause do show up with some frequency.

Uh, as I believe you yourself pointed out, Grayson clearly has had prior contact with the rest of human space, since some of their upper crust were sent to Harvard, so it's perfectly plausible they'd be aware of the tech imbalance.

As for their advancements, I can only remember two things the Graysons are credited for being better at: inertial compensators and fission generators, the former because they stumbled onto a more effective design, and the latter because they kept using and refining fission while everyone else switched to fusion.

... Yes. The text literally told you that was why she was impressed, in the very passage you quoted: "For a technically backward system, Yeltsin's Star boasted an amazing number of bulk carriers and processing ships." You're so determined to find fault with Weber's writing that you invent them where they don't exist.

That only comes up later as a retcon, and the High Admiral is not one of those people in any case, as indicated by this book. Since after all, he states that he only INTELLECTUALLY knows about Manticore having women but it's still a shock to him, which wouldn't be the case if he had spent his youth on a planet where women not being babymakers was a thing.

Also that's not the part I was talking about. I said she should have JUST been impressed with how much they had, instead of adding on that she's shocked to see so many, as it reads that she hasn't seen so many ships together like that.

Kchama fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Mar 10, 2020

# ? Mar 10, 2020 01:41

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Everyone's a WarCriminal: the Mil-SciFi Thread

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