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Brazilianpeanutwar posted:I wanted to like injustice but i hated the controls,i really liked the characters but it was so sluggish. What did you play it on? It always shoots for 60 frames per in-game second. If it can’t make that in an actual second, it slows the game down.
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Mar 14, 2020 12:43
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Kennel posted:Recettear teaches you to set the prices high. In reality you want to avoid any situation where the customer tries to haggle, because it breaks your combo and makes leveling up extremely slow. Also because haggling with NPCs is really bad and they'll just not buy it because they're jerks anyway. Len posted:Does being terminally dumb count? Because the Neir fishing tutorial quest broke that one reviewers brain because he didn't follow the big red x that he'd been following That broke a lot of people's brains and I don't know why. It kind of genuinely irritates me at this point. I know a guy who played nier and quit at that exact point for that exact reason and when I pointed out that he should have just followed the red X like he did the whole game, or tried literally anything else but the thing that did not work his response is "I don't care, it was stupid." Which, I don't loving know; it seems really stupid to blame the game for that kind of screwup.
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Mar 14, 2020 12:49
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Ugly In The Morning posted:What did you play it on? It always shoots for 60 frames per in-game second. If it can’t make that in an actual second, it slows the game down. Even on low settings at a decent framerate the combos always felt poo poo.
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Mar 14, 2020 13:03
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Barudak posted:Does tutorials not including things count? Because Resident Evil 6 doesnt bother to teach you a whole bunch of stuff about how its melee combat mechanics work which did not help the game at all. I think both of these absolutely count; I'm not sure about FFXIII's tutorial, but I know the game itself loved throwing too much contextless information at you, I wouldn't be surprised if that extended to the tutorial. I found a similar problem existed with FFXV's tutorial (which I think was patched in later), it told you basically everything you'd need to know but not why you might need most of it, which led to you forgetting most of it. Probably the most important thing a tutorial has to figure out is the right amount of information to give. RE6 failed to give you enough, FFXIII might've actually given too much.
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Mar 14, 2020 13:10
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John Murdoch posted:I feel like 95+% of strategy game tutorials are just awful. The very worst will only explain what all of the buttons do and how to move units or w/e and nothing else. The slightly better will try to train the player on basic gameplay loops and rhythms. But they basically all fail at communicating the fundamental underpinnings of the game beyond broad strokes (for instance just stating the 4 Xes is not useful). Which leads to beginners needing to tinker and experiment with complicated mechanics in a genre where choices made in the first hour can have ramifications several hours down the line. For some of the Paradox games like Europa Universalis, they release big content patches alongside their expansion packs. Great, except sometimes the patches change the gameplay in fundamental ways! So either the tutorials give you outright wrong information, or break and don't let you progress beyond a certain step. So new players buying the game after a few patches have to find tutorials on external sites to have any idea what to do. Oh, and sometimes the tutorial is narrated by Hitler. Nice one Paradox!
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Mar 14, 2020 13:25
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Said game length also often leads to awkwardly decompressed tutorials, where each step is split up by several, possibly even double digit numbers of turns or open-ended tutorial objectives that leave a player hanging without further guidance.
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Cleretic posted:Have people here come across any noteworthily bad tutorials in games? Either far too demanding like Driver's, outright incorrect like FFVII's Scorpion Tank, or otherwise just detrimental to the whole experience? Final Fantasy Tactic's tutorial is translated poorly enough to be pretty much no help at all.
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Mar 14, 2020 13:57
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The problem with the Nier fishing tutorial is that the guy who gives you the fishing rod gives you a non specific instruction on where to go which is coupled by the way that you can start fishing at a different spot than the tutorial and the game doesn't let you know this.
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Mar 14, 2020 14:14
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Cleretic posted:I think both of these absolutely count; I'm not sure about FFXIII's tutorial, but I know the game itself loved throwing too much contextless information at you, I wouldn't be surprised if that extended to the tutorial. I found a similar problem existed with FFXV's tutorial (which I think was patched in later), it told you basically everything you'd need to know but not why you might need most of it, which led to you forgetting most of it. also I gave my custom character a rapier and it has all this stuff about different stances I can go into that it doesn't explain at all, so I don't actually know how to do any of these unblockable attacks and please show me how to do this, game.
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Mar 14, 2020 14:22
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I actually discovered the quest marker thanks to that quest. I had just been sort of naturally figuring out where to go for everything, and here's this guy saying to "fish at the beach" or something along those lines while standing next to a tiny beach so I just assumed he meant next him. Pretty weird to not having the fishing tutorial NPC in the beginner fishing area.
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Mar 14, 2020 14:24
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The Whitechapel level in Medievil 2 was interesting due to the Jack the Ripper stuff, but the cops make it such a chore to get through at least until you have the items (when you have two of the items you need to get to the nightclub the police leave you alone). They're just annoying to deal with, although it is understandable why they are so aggressive
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Mar 14, 2020 14:31
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muscles like this! posted:The problem with the Nier fishing tutorial is that the guy who gives you the fishing rod gives you a non specific instruction on where to go which is coupled by the way that you can start fishing at a different spot than the tutorial and the game doesn't let you know this. Big red X. And he tells you to go to the beach to the side, and he's standing on a pier.
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Mar 14, 2020 14:45
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If just one person does something weird its his fault. If a huge number of people all do the same thing that was not intended, it is a design failure.
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Mar 14, 2020 15:08
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:I just started playing soul calibur 6 and I feel like it has this issue. The tutorial gives you like six different ways to guard and doesn't explain why any of them are better than others. I can intuit some of it since I'm not a complete novice at fighting games but the bewildering range of things that can/do happen during reversal edge parry impact movement recoveries is really not for staying in my head. And there are unblockable attacks that go through any of these six different types of blocking which feels like it undermines the whole thing slightly. Fighting games are a uniquely complicated thing to make tutorials for, and I've thought a bunch about this specifically. Because while plenty of games need to cover a few different experience levels in teaching players, fighting games basically need to offer three entirely different learning experiences for three different audiences that will cross over but not in any specific points for the overall playerbase. You need to be able to cover: -Here's how fighting games work in general, -Here's how to play this fighting game in particular, -Here's how to play this specific character. And while all of those theoretically lead into each other, there's always going to be exceptions. Someone definitely bought Mortal Kombat 11 as their first fighting game solely to play as the Terminator, and he needs to learn, too. I don't know if I've come across a game that's done all of these things well, by itself. Like you said, SCVI does a really good job at the second tier, explaining the game itself, but not a good enough job at the first or third. Injustice, as I mentioned before, falters at the first and second because it leans too far into the third. I remember Dragon Ball FighterZ was really good at the first two, giving you a lot of fundamentals, but basically nothing character specific so you're kinda left going 'poo poo, now what' by yourself. Every Smash Bros game since Brawl has been bad at all of those tiers, and it's a testament to how well Smash is designed that it never feels like a real problem. The best one I've found is actually Street Fighter V; its base mechanics tutorial does really well at explaining things without getting too presumptuous of your skill level, and without going too hard on character-specific moves; it has you play as Ryu, but the only Ryu-specific stuff it teaches are what his V-Skill does, and I believe how to throw a Hadoken, both of which are really transferable. The only place it falters is that its character-specific trainings don't explain the character's V-Skills. All of that said, though, fighting games have been a genre uniquely reliant on learning from other players ever since Street Fighter II and Fatal Fury threw in special moves with weird inputs. Those games, more than any, expect you to learn by looking elsewhere. Cleretic has a new favorite as of 15:12 on Mar 14, 2020 |
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Mar 14, 2020 15:09
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Monster Hunter sort of suffers the same issues - the basics of the game, like rolling, carving, sheathing and unsheathing your weapon, they're that basics. But each weapon is a bevy of new mechanics, timings, combo lists, and often UI elements to learn, and the game's never been great about getting all these concepts across. MH World does the best job with it, but even then I needed to look online for a couple of the more complex weapons to actually find out the good stuff you could do with them.
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Mar 14, 2020 15:13
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Cleretic posted:I remember Dragon Ball FighterZ was really good at the first two, giving you a lot of fundamentals, but basically nothing character specific so you're kinda left going 'poo poo, now what' by yourself. It has character specific combo challenges is about it. The problem is I've done all of them, but doing some prescripted combo with onscreen instructions on a non-moving opponent is completely different than when an even terrible AI is moving around. It felt good when I started reliably executing the more advanced challenges, but I don't think I remembered any of them afterwards (unless you count the combos that are just press the same button again and again).
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Mar 14, 2020 15:15
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Cleretic posted:: MK11 actually completely knocked it out of the park. There’s a pretty in-depth tutorial, but the key here? Story Mode. It gets you rotating through characters pretty well, so you get a feel for at the very least each different character archetype, how to do most special moves, all that, with steadily increasing difficulty. NRS has been doing that for all their games since MK9, but MKX and later managed to make the initial tutorial something that wasn’t a frustrating and confusing mess.
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Mar 14, 2020 15:16
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Most fighting game tutorials are overly preoccupied with showing players how to perform the inputs instead of defining & demonstrating concepts like plus/minus on block and neutral, which new players can have a hard time understanding. MK11's tutorial is good for at least explaining what safety on block is but there's still room for improvement.
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Mar 14, 2020 16:15
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DBZF is great for inputs because of the accessibility and conformity but nothing in the training prepares for online play, which is Whoever Does the First 1,000 Hit Combo Wins.
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Mar 14, 2020 16:44
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The worst thing fighting games do is have a movelist, but it uses that stupid high kick/low punch symbols instead of the actual buttons. I'm not that into fighting games, and on the rare occasion that I do play one, I don't want to have to look up what the symbols mean on a wiki, and then also figure out what buttons I press to do that action.
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Mar 14, 2020 16:45
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IShallRiseAgain posted:The worst thing fighting games do is have a movelist, but it uses that stupid high kick/low punch symbols instead of the actual buttons. I'm not that into fighting games, and on the rare occasion that I do play one, I don't want to have to look up what the symbols mean on a wiki, and then also figure out what buttons I press to do that action. It’s another area where NRS games like MK do it right, it tells you what button to hit instead of front punch or whatever. I think that’s a holdover from arcade movelists on cabinets where that’s what the buttons were actually labeled.
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Mar 14, 2020 16:46
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Cleretic posted:I think both of these absolutely count; I'm not sure about FFXIII's tutorial, but I know the game itself loved throwing too much contextless information at you, I wouldn't be surprised if that extended to the tutorial. I found a similar problem existed with FFXV's tutorial (which I think was patched in later), it told you basically everything you'd need to know but not why you might need most of it, which led to you forgetting most of it. FF13 had entire boss fights that were tutorials for specific mechanics (every eidolon fight, for example), to make you learn them and how to use them. When it wanted you to learn something, it made sure, or you weren't going to progress without massive brute force.
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Mar 14, 2020 17:35
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I had no idea until just now that Medievil 2's Health Fountains don't replenish if you return to earlier levels, so the only reliable way to get health back is to replay the levels a million times to get health vials over and over again which takes an eternity. Turning off Health Fountains doesn't work to discourage grinding for health because you always need more health due to how hard enemies hit so it just makes it take forever to get back on your feet after a hard level.
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Mar 14, 2020 19:31
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Cleretic posted:Actually, this comes close to a topic I've been considering starting a project about : South Park Stick of Truth - some of the fart magic tutorials were insanely tough for whatever reason. Also I managed to get stuck in the Stellaris tutorial because if you misclicked, you used up whatever resource you needed for the thing that advanced the tutorial and then had to restart it.
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Mar 14, 2020 20:03
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They added a tutorial to the Enhanced Edition of The Witcher 2. At one point you level up and it tells you put all your points in the ability trees. What it doesn't spell out that it also expects you to add a mutagen, which is a permanent stat boost that you can attach to abilities that give you a mutagen slot. So you end up wondering if the tutorial broke, until you look it up online.
Mierenneuker has a new favorite as of 20:19 on Mar 14, 2020 |
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Mar 14, 2020 20:16
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Pre-Enhanced Edition Witcher 2 was something of a nightmare. The combat was extraordinarily unforgiving (and completely different from Witcher 1, which I had just replayed before the launch so that was my muscle memory). The QTEs stand out in my memory as being particular bad, but I haven't gone back to them. Edit: I can't remember the specifics, but I remember TheLastRoboKy mentioning in his LP that one of the problems in the original Nioh is that one of the controls is localized incorrectly, so the game tells you the wrong button presses to use a mechanic. marshmallow creep has a new favorite as of 20:26 on Mar 14, 2020 |
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Mar 14, 2020 20:22
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Cleretic posted:The fact that it's demanding actual combos is also unfair for a tutorial about base mechanics. It sounds like the right idea, since a fighting game is all about combos, but the problem is it only teaches you Batman combos. The really demanding inputs require you to master those combos, but they're combos that only Batman can do, so it's not a transferable lesson. They haven't effectively taught you how to play the game, they've taught you how to play this one character. In fairness to Injustice 2, it does also have fundamentals and combo lessons for every other character too, accessible after the tutorial. I think they just go for Batman in the tutorial since he's one of the more beginner-friendly characters, lots of stuff you learn from him transfers to other characters. I don't play a lot of fighting games but Injustice 2 was one of the few times where it didn't all feel borderline incomprehensible.
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Mar 14, 2020 20:54
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Metal Gear Rising's tutorial is outright incorrect when it tells you about parrying attacks. The game says parrying is done DMC style where you intercept an attack with an attack of your own, but that is not at all how it works, instead you have to press forward and attack at the same time for a split-second blocking/parrying stance.
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Mar 14, 2020 21:29
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John Murdoch posted:I feel like 95+% of strategy game tutorials are just awful. The very worst will only explain what all of the buttons do and how to move units or w/e and nothing else. The slightly better will try to train the player on basic gameplay loops and rhythms. But they basically all fail at communicating the fundamental underpinnings of the game beyond broad strokes (for instance just stating the 4 Xes is not useful). Which leads to beginners needing to tinker and experiment with complicated mechanics in a genre where choices made in the first hour can have ramifications several hours down the line. This reminds me of Xcom Enemy Unknown/Within's tutorial. It teaches you some aspects of how the game works, but if you want a successful run, it handicaps you pretty hard. It's manageable, of course, but my second game I skipped the tutorial and basically didn't do half of what it wanted for nearly two in-game months because it was easier that way.
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Mar 14, 2020 21:47
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My extremely petty game game dragging complaint is indie games having the stupidest loving titles imaginable. "Hurtworld" "Miscreated" "Genesis Alpha One" "Remothered: Tormented Fathers" "Blood & Bacon" I'm sure these devs put a ton of work and sweat and tears into these projects but holy hell what utterly ghastly titles.
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Mar 14, 2020 21:53
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CJacobs posted:Metal Gear Rising's tutorial is outright incorrect when it tells you about parrying attacks. The game says parrying is done DMC style where you intercept an attack with an attack of your own, but that is not at all how it works, instead you have to press forward and attack at the same time for a split-second blocking/parrying stance. I mean, functionally those play out the same way. Attacking/hitting the attack button conveys almost the exact same information. You're not the first person I've heard mentioning this, so I suppose it's more common than I think, but I found it surprising that anyone had trouble with parrying in MGR because it felt so intuitive and forgiving for me
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Mar 14, 2020 21:55
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Danger - Octopus! posted:South Park Stick of Truth - some of the fart magic tutorials were insanely tough for whatever reason. Yeah for some reason the game wants you to do specific motions with the stick but instead of directly showing what it wants you to do on screen instead the game just has a character describe it to you.
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Mar 14, 2020 21:56
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Kit Walker posted:I mean, functionally those play out the same way. Attacking/hitting the attack button conveys almost the exact same information. You're not the first person I've heard mentioning this, but I found it surprising that anyone had trouble with parrying in MGR because it's so intuitive and forgiving The game says "throw out a series of light attacks of your own" which will just get you damaged.
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Mar 14, 2020 21:56
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I find this topic funny with regards to the Final Fantasy VII Remake demo: They have a tutorial for Cloud's Punisher Mode. Its big feature is he slows down and does big AoE sweeps and automatically counters melee attacks. It does nothing to help you with ranged attacks or magic. The room you are locked in for this tutorial is nothing but grunts with guns. They occasionally will attack you with batons anyway, so it still works to show off the counter attack property, but it's funny to me that the "use this mode to hit hard in close range and counterattack in melee" tutorial is found in a room full of gun-havers. I've also heard complaints about Snap Seeds in Sekiro and how they are introduced before Madame Butterfly. You are told they can dispel her illusions, but they're actually very poor against her. You want to use them on other, completely different illusion-using enemies where they work better, but they are introduced before her fight and lots of people apparently got the impression you had to use them to beat her. marshmallow creep has a new favorite as of 22:12 on Mar 14, 2020 |
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Mar 14, 2020 22:09
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Thres also the matter that you can waste hard-to-find consumables in Sekiro because it's an autosave only game. Used up confetti on a boss and died anyway? Sucks to be you, now beat the boss without that advantage and nothing to show for it.
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Mar 14, 2020 23:21
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Atelier Ryza So the Atelier games are by and large tonally light and fluffy. The early part of Atelier Ryza's big theme is how Ryza and her teenaged friends are trying to spread their wings and build lives for themselves. The problem is, your big sword jock guy's plotline is all about how his drunken abusive piece-of-poo poo dad beats him badly enough to break bones, which is played for laughs and is kinda hosed up.
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Mar 14, 2020 23:34
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marshmallow creep posted:
That's funny because yeah, they are introduced to you literally outside of the entrance to her boss battle.
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Mar 14, 2020 23:50
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Al Cu Ad Solte posted:My extremely petty game game dragging complaint is indie games having the stupidest loving titles imaginable. "Hurtworld" "Miscreated" "Genesis Alpha One" "Remothered: Tormented Fathers" "Blood & Bacon" I'm sure these devs put a ton of work and sweat and tears into these projects but holy hell what utterly ghastly titles. Blood and Bacon is a genius game
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Mar 14, 2020 23:57
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monster hunter world is a great game with an atrocious tutorial
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Mar 15, 2020 00:30
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Pathfinder Kingmaker Restoration, cure blindness, and probably other similar spells like remove curse and remove disease, are not cast automatically on rest when needed. This is especially odd as Lesser Restoration is cast automatically. It's super annoying because you can't form a party or control your party members other than the protagonist in the capital. So unless your protagonist is capable of it you cannot cure negative levels, permanent ability drain, blindness and who knows what else without having to: form a party, run over to the nearest encounter area, cast your heals, run back to the capital. And it can easily take multiple trips if things went really badly for you. And that's a load screen to the map, a load screen for the nearby hill, and load screen back to the map, and another load screen back into your capital for each trip. Also the game is just loving relentless with the time critical poo poo. Everything needs to be done right loving now or you'll suffer the consequences. Which is incredibly annoying as there's so many little side quests and exploration areas and poo poo I want to go play with but the game wont let me cuz here's thirty different time critical quests all at the same time get on it! I never thought I'd find a game more annoying about that than Baldur's Gate 2, it was already terrible about being all "oh go rescue Imoen immediately, who knows how badly she's suffering" at the same time as presenting gameplay that wanted me to waste 2 weeks exploring a sewer and 3 months doing some random side quest out in the forest and so on. Then you rescue her and it's a whole new time critical story arc at the same time as (ingame)years and years worth of random sidequests to do. But at least in BG2 the time critical aspect of the main quest was a lie and you could ignore it if you wanted for as long as you want. It just made the game seem real stupid when you're still "rushing" to rescue Imoen after 3 in game years of faffing about. I guess what I'm saying is if you're going to make the best part of your game the sidequests and other ancillary mechanics don't make the main quest constantly have time pressures. It'll always be somewhere between silly, annoying, and frustrating. It doesn't help that the main quest is most of the time the worst part of RPGs. The further I get in the game the worse the performance is getting. There's a palpable delay every time I move, sell, equip, drop, do whatever with, an item that just keeps getting longer as I play. The load times similarly just keep getting longer. The sitting framerate in a mostly empty area is 90ish on a new savefile but 30ish on my current 50ish hour save and often drops to 10ish in actual action situations. It also hitches much of the time when I select/deselect/whatever a character or select a spell, open my inventory, open my character screen, open my spell book, look at the map, or basically any other UI pane. At this point I'm basically racing to see if I can finish the game before it becomes completely unplayable. At least it's not crashing for me, yet anyway, a friend of mine who played it said she ended up having to quit as it just started crashing more and more often the further she got in the game. It's frustrating because I'm still enjoying it despite the performance issues and design annoyances. The kingdom management stuff is interesting and I want to see where it goes. Pathfinder's system seems fun to gently caress around with and I often think "oh this would be interesting if I'd played this build" and so could see myself coming back to it in the future if it just didnt run so poorly. Idk maybe with luck the next game they're making will run better and someone will find a way to get it to load the data files like people got Baldur's Gate to run in Baldur's Gate 2. Probably not though games are too complicated nowadays for that sort of thing I expect.
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Mar 15, 2020 01:04
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CJacobs posted:The game says "throw out a series of light attacks of your own" which will just get you damaged. It says this:  I remember being briefly confused because "in the direction of an enemy attack" kinda sounds like I have to aim for their sword as it swings towards me or something. Really it should have said "in the direction of an enemy attacker" because all you have to do is aim at the enemy.
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Mar 15, 2020 05:50
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