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If you're told by black people something is offensive (like Lucas and Baddiel have been) and continue to do the thing (like Lucas and Baddiel have done) I don't think you get to use the "Well I didn't mean anything racist by it" excuse.
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Mar 14, 2020 17:21
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Ya I agree thoughtless racism is perfectly fine actually and should never be challenged because they just werent thinking and didn't really mean anything by it
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Mar 14, 2020 17:48
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Their shows were huge and Lucas and Walliams knowingly took them in an entirely hateful direction. They were just plain making fun of different groups of people in the end and it facilitated and normalised victimisation. I was on the receiving end of it myself with the gay poo poo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zLuGwQyLyE I mean maybe I'm missing something but is there any humour to be derived from that sketch for example, for someone who doesn't think racist caricatures and stereotypes are hilarious?
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Mar 14, 2020 18:04
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Man who isn't hurt defends hurtful bad comedy against people who are genuinely are hurt. This is a strange hill to die on.
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Mar 14, 2020 18:07
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crispix posted:Their shows were huge and Lucas and Walliams knowingly took them in an entirely hateful direction. They were just plain making fun of different groups of people in the end and it facilitated and normalised victimisation. I was on the receiving end of it myself with the gay poo poo. Well the character is called Precious Little because that's what she does, the running gag was she would sabotage her coffee stand in order to get out of doing any work. Not because she happens to be black, the character could have been of any racial background. The joke isn't trying to say people of colour don't do any work (which is what the hysterical media outlets tried to claim.) The fact is Little Britain and Come Fly With Me were both shows where Walliams and Lucas portrayed the vast majority of the characters, and in such situations multiple ethnicities were used. Would you have preferred Lucas and Walliams had written a show where all the characters were CIS, Heterosexual white males instead? It's comedy. It's subjective. It either comes from a good place or a bad place. You can argue about the merits of Little Britain and CFWM (personally I thought Little Britain was excellent at the time, CFWM not so) but at the end of the day it's silly wigs and makeup. Do you find the film White Chicks offensive? If not, why not? It's two black people dressing up and pretending to be white women for comic effect. Same thing. Or, and here's a hot take, are you one of those people that thinks black people can't hold racial prejudices against white people? Dell_Zincht fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Mar 15, 2020 |
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Mar 15, 2020 08:07
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Dell_Zincht posted:Well the character is called Precious Little because that's what she does, the running gag was she would sabotage her coffee stand in order to get out of doing any work. Not because she happens to be black, the character could have been of any racial background. I just watched it, and the only actual "joke" is that she is annoyed that he helps her by fixing his tap. The rest of the "humour" is basically just "haha don't African-Caribbean women sound funny", white men using stereotypes that many people find very offensive. The character couldn't have been from any racial background because the entire gag is about how funny they think African-Caribbean women sound. Changing the racial background would require an entire rewrite of the script. The Bob Mortimer sketches, however, COULD be done completely the same without him blacking up and it wouldn't make any difference at all. Nothing about the humour is race related in those, aside from the initial sight gag of him wearing makeup. I'm still glad he doesn't do it anymore, but it is different to what Lucas/Walliams used to do quote:Do you find the film White Chicks offensive? If not, why not? It's two black people dressing up and pretending to be white women for comic effect. Same thing. No, it isn't.
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Mar 15, 2020 08:30
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Dell_Zincht posted:Well the character is called Precious Little because that's what she does, the running gag was she would sabotage her coffee stand in order to get out of doing any work. Not because she happens to be black, the character could have been of any racial background. I'm actually arguing that Lucas and Walliam's comedy came from a bad place - that they knew perfectly well they were being hateful and racist for cheap laughs and they didn't give a gently caress because they were not exposed to the effects that some of the bile they put out had on society. I'm not responding to any of the questions you asked me directly because you're getting carried away with yourself and also being an arsehole.
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Mar 15, 2020 11:49
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crispix posted:I'm actually arguing that Lucas and Walliam's comedy came from a bad place - that they knew perfectly well they were being hateful and racist for cheap laughs and they didn't give a gently caress because they were not exposed to the effects that some of the bile they put out had on society. Don't know if you got the memo, but Lucas is gay and the thought of coming out had affected his mental health for years. They made fun of everyone in Little Britain, which is how comedy should be. Nothing should be sacrosanct in comedy and I make no apologies for having that opinion.
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Mar 15, 2020 12:08
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Dell_Zincht posted:Don't know if you got the memo, but Lucas is gay and the thought of coming out had affected his mental health for years. They made fun of everyone in Little Britain, which is how comedy should be. Nothing should be sacrosanct in comedy and I make no apologies for having that opinion. So you're not arguing that it's not racist any more, you're saying that promoting racial stereotypes for cheap laughs is fine because 'nothing should be sacrosanct in comedy'?
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Mar 15, 2020 12:20
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Strawman posted:So you're not arguing that it's not racist any more, you're saying that promoting racial stereotypes for cheap laughs is fine because 'nothing should be sacrosanct in comedy'? It all depends on where the comedy is coming from. Was Precious Little really created to mock West Indian people? Lucas has apologised for it, so perhaps so, I don't honestly know the answer to that. CFWM had a diverse range of characters though, it's not like the piss-taking was aimed at just people of colour. I'm not saying it's the height of comedy or even particularly clever comedy but I will absolutely defend the right for people to enjoy it. I hate Mrs Brown's Boys with a passion and think it's the worst kind of lowest common denominator comedy produced, but I'm not going to argue that people who find it funny shouldn't.
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Mar 15, 2020 12:54
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Dell_Zincht posted:It all depends on where the comedy is coming from. Was Precious Little really created to mock West Indian people? Lucas has apologised for it, so perhaps so, I don't honestly know the answer to that. CFWM had a diverse range of characters though, it's not like the piss-taking was aimed at just people of colour. It's not about who it's aimed at, it's about what it makes people feel who are part of the communities they're effectively making fun of. Why are you coming into a UK thread on SA to be a big racist, I don't really get this line.
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Mar 15, 2020 14:03
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Taear posted:It's not about who it's aimed at, it's about what it makes people feel who are part of the communities they're effectively making fun of. I'm not being racist, I haven't said anything racist, and i'm a citizen of the UK who likes to watch UK TV and discuss it on an internet forum. Not quite sure what you're getting at, to be honest.
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Mar 15, 2020 14:20
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Dell_Zincht posted:Don't know if you got the memo, but Lucas is gay and the thought of coming out had affected his mental health for years. They made fun of everyone in Little Britain, which is how comedy should be. Nothing should be sacrosanct in comedy and I make no apologies for having that opinion. What bearing does Lucas's own sexuality have on the fact that he knowingly created sketches for a television programme watched by millions that gave hateful people pre-packaged stereotypes that they could use to abuse people and evade the consequences that would have accompanied doing so without reference to a comedy programme on television? Dell_Zincht posted:I'm not saying it's the height of comedy or even particularly clever comedy but I will absolutely defend the right for people to enjoy it. It's a strange cause to have imo but I wasn't actually arguing about anyone's right to enjoy anything. How you get your laughs is your business. My point is that when you have television programmes watched by millions you have a duty to be responsible with what you create and Lucas and Walliams fell well short of that.
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Mar 15, 2020 14:22
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crispix posted:What bearing does Lucas's own sexuality have on the fact that he knowingly created sketches for a television programme watched by millions that gave hateful people pre-packaged stereotypes that they could use to abuse people and evade the consequences that would have accompanied doing so without reference to a comedy programme on television? This is a bit like saying movies with guns are responsible for kids shooting up schools, and it's a dangerous path to travel down if you ask me. quote:It's a strange cause to have imo but I wasn't actually arguing about anyone's right to enjoy anything. How you get your laughs is your business. My point is that when you have television programmes watched by millions you have a duty to be responsible with what you create and Lucas and Walliams fell well short of that. Really I'd say the onus is on the BBC, after all they're the ones who commissioned and broadcast it. Also both programmes are currently available on Netflix, maybe you should direct your anger towards them too while you're at it. Dell_Zincht fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Mar 15, 2020 |
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Mar 15, 2020 14:43
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I'm not angry at all, thanks.
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Mar 15, 2020 14:44
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I'm reminded of conversations between my parents of about The Benny Hill Show, one thinks its a classic of British comedy and the other thinks its a hateful example of how women were portrayed and treated by establisment media in the 1970s. As to nothing being Sacrosanct in comedy, nothing is? Like you can do material about anything, its just that nothing is beyond criticism also. Like blackface isn't even something comedians must never do its just that thoughtlessly, unironically blacking up and putting on a funny accent is unlikely to go down well. Like nobodys coming after this Mitchel and webb sketch for example: https://youtu.be/Vkzox_t3Z-Q
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Mar 15, 2020 15:05
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Dell_Zincht posted:This is a bit like saying movies with guns are responsible for kids shooting up schools, and it's a dangerous path to travel down if you ask me. Do you seriously believe that decades of "good guy with a gun" action movies have had zero impact on American gun culture and said culture is also not at least in part responsible for the lax gun laws that allow school shootings to be an almost weekly occurrence in America?
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Mar 15, 2020 15:14
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Blackface is not inherently racist. In the example of the white child who loved Obama, and then blacked up in order to dress up as his favourite president for Halloween, that kid was not a racist. It could be theoretically possible to just do blackface in order to more accurately represent a black person on character in a way that is completely respectful. However, blackface has a long and terrible history of being used to ridicule and oppress black people. It is extremely understandable that black people are very touchy about it. It’s a little like the swastika - a technically innocent little geometric symbol that has been a good luck charm for millennia, and has religious significance in the East. But we all know what it represents today. If you wear a swastika on your t-shirt people are going to be upset and very understandably so. In a completely abstract world, there would be nothing wrong with the swastika, or blackface. But we don’t live in an abstract world, we live in one full of context and history. People like Matt Lucas should admit that at best, they simply didn’t know or care about the history of blackface, and they should have, and they’re sorry. Comrade Fakename fucked around with this message at 12:45 on Mar 16, 2020 |
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Mar 16, 2020 02:34
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Wasn’t there a Little Britain sketch where the entire joke was it was Williams and Lucas dressed up (and made up) as minstrels whilst they ate breakfast cereal? Like, that was the entire joke.
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Mar 16, 2020 08:58
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Dell_Zincht posted:
gently caress. You are so loving wrong, I hope you are trolling
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Mar 16, 2020 09:42
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Comrade Fakename posted:Blackface is not inherently racist. In the example of the white child who loved Obama, and then blacked up in order to dress up as his favourite president for Halloween, that kid was not a racist. It could be theoretically possible to just do blackface in order to more accurately represent a black person on character in a way that is completely respectful. Only time I've seen blackface that in my (white guy) opinion was 'acceptable' was in Jeeves and Wooster, and that's because the characters doing the blackface were absolute idiots and were made look like absolute idiots.
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Mar 16, 2020 09:48
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Samovar posted:Only time I've seen blackface that in my (white guy) opinion was 'acceptable' was in Jeeves and Wooster, and that's because the characters doing the blackface were absolute idiots and were made look like absolute idiots. Yea this is how it's played in always sunny too.
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Mar 16, 2020 11:51
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2 1 4 6
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Mar 17, 2020 02:25
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Adolf Glitter posted:gently caress. You are so loving wrong, I hope you are trolling Thank you for your contribution, Adolf Glitter.
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Mar 17, 2020 02:58
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Adolf Glitter posted:gently caress. You are so loving wrong, I hope you are trolling I'm not trolling. Feel free to explain why I'm so wrong, though.
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Mar 17, 2020 08:40
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What's the thread's take on Papa Lazarou?
Pablo Bluth fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Mar 17, 2020 |
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Mar 17, 2020 09:01
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Pablo Bluth posted:What's the thread's take on Papa Lazarou? Hilarious. The character is too surreal and grotesque that to simply call it blackface is somewhat missing the point. (Interestingly enough The League revealed that the character actually has black and white skin, and uses pink foundation in an attempt to appear caucasian.)
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Mar 17, 2020 09:17
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rip the Vicars fitbit.
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Mar 17, 2020 22:49
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I didn't expect to read a defense of blackface in the UK TV thread but then again this is the racist shithole of a country that had hilarious comedy blackface on tv in the 21st century with Little Britian.Pablo Bluth posted:What's the thread's take on Papa Lazarou? Filed next to Babs the cab driver as things from League of Gentlemen I found hilarious 20 years ago as a stupid teenager but now realise are not cool.
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Mar 18, 2020 15:47
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I am sad next week will be the last of This Country.
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Mar 18, 2020 16:16
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marktheando posted:Filed next to Babs the cab driver as things from League of Gentlemen I found hilarious 20 years ago as a stupid teenager but now realise are not cool. I saw them live last year and the stuff they said about trans issues really bothered me. All these rich slightly older comedians are tossers pretty much.
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Mar 18, 2020 16:22
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SeanBeansShako posted:I am sad next week will be the last of This Country. It's really great and I don't understand why the BBC keeps it on iplayer only.
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Mar 18, 2020 17:45
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iPlayer is clearly scared of Mandy. Like we all are.
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Mar 18, 2020 18:13
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That argument that ended with the shoe chucked on the train slayed me. I've been rewatching Him & Her recently as well. Stands up really well in my opinion, still absolutely hilarious. Weirdly dated with the phones the characters use but I suppose it is ten years old. Also, randomly read on the IMDb trivia for the show that Russel Tovey is Stephen Fry's nephew - that's got to be bollocks, right?
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Mar 18, 2020 20:22
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Bogmonster posted:That argument that ended with the shoe chucked on the train slayed me. No mention of it on his wikipedia page, for whatever that's worth.
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Mar 18, 2020 20:34
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marktheando posted:I didn't expect to read a defense of blackface in the UK TV thread but then again this is the racist shithole of a country that had hilarious comedy blackface on tv in the 21st century with Little Britian. As for Babs, yeah. I loved everything about the Specials except the bits when Babs was on(off?)screen doing the lamest attack chopper type humour. Just really bad and lazy, especialky jarring when other returning characters had like actual pathos and were handled pretty well by the show.
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Mar 19, 2020 00:30
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Mr Phillby posted:I knida feel Lazarou is a little removed from like actual blackface, like its using the aesthetics of minstrels to like give an unsettling unpleasant edge to the character rather than unironically portraying a stereotype. I do understand how it could put the wind up some people just by looking that way though. I'm really disappointed because I always figured the joke with Babs was that she overshares. Nobody in town who wasn't a raging arsehole ever doubted her identity, everyone accepted her as a woman, and she was just comically over-intense about describing personal things. But no, it was just Man Want Be Woman?? HILARIOUS all the time apparently.
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Mar 19, 2020 00:39
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Paperhouse posted:The Bob Mortimer sketches, however, COULD be done completely the same without him blacking up and it wouldn't make any difference at all. Nothing about the humour is race related in those, aside from the initial sight gag of him wearing makeup. This. It feels like they literally just wanted to joke about the toilet scene in Lethal Weapon, and to do that one of them had to black up to play Murtaugh. He doesn't even try to act like a black caricature or Danny Glover. Its even shittily done blackface to boot.
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Mar 19, 2020 12:04
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HopperUK posted:I'm really disappointed because I always figured the joke with Babs was that she overshares. Nobody in town who wasn't a raging arsehole ever doubted her identity, everyone accepted her as a woman, and she was just comically over-intense about describing personal things. But no, it was just Man Want Be Woman?? HILARIOUS all the time apparently. Yea same. But nope. It's frustrating.
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Mar 19, 2020 13:35
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That one bit that is grotesque but oddly sweet in Psychoville ruined by the phrase 'Tina Turner impression'. I am pretty sure that joke could have been done with any other singer.
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Mar 19, 2020 14:58
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