|
Darth Walrus posted:I dunno, the last ten episodes of Victory go Maximum Newtype. The Angel Halo is a Newtype superweapon, and the poo poo it does both intentionally and unintentionally is horrifying.  Get me outta this wack rear end second floor apartment window, remaining ignorant of the thief that has crept into my house
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2020 23:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 22:06 |
|
|
jackhunter64 posted:
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2020 23:56
|
|
|
Droyer posted:This is hosed up, the Titans have the best fashion in UC. Only because Harry Ord isn't in the UC.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 00:00
|
|
|
I think it doesn't help that the Titans don't have a single, strong suit aesthetic like Zeon do, which is a fatal blow to your popularity as a faction in a mecha franchise. They really should have gone all-in with an 'evil Federation' look.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 00:02
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:Only because Harry Ord isn't in the UC. Technically CC is n cycles down the line of the UC while remaining in the same universe, soooooooooo I'd say he counts.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 04:27
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:I think it doesn't help that the Titans don't have a single, strong suit aesthetic like Zeon do, which is a fatal blow to your popularity as a faction in a mecha franchise. They really should have gone all-in with an 'evil Federation' look. It was such a missed opportunity
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 04:35
|
|
|
maybe some of those endless, pointless kamille vs. titans fights would have been interesting if he had fought sinister neo-guntanks.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 04:36
|
|
|
Repurposing the mono-eye was a real “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” moment for the Titans.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 05:20
|
|
|
HitTheTargets posted:Repurposing the mono-eye was a real “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” moment for the Titans. Bwwwwoomp-Bwomp.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 08:42
|
|
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:Bwwwwoomp-Bwomp.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 09:05
|
|
|
I think it would of been neat if Titans had slowly transitioned towards more zeon like designs a bit more slowly. Start out with mono-eye'd GM's till their suits get curvier and spikier and then suddenly "Oh hey Barzam"
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 09:46
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:I think it doesn't help that the Titans don't have a single, strong suit aesthetic like Zeon do, which is a fatal blow to your popularity as a faction in a mecha franchise. They really should have gone all-in with an 'evil Federation' look. One contributing factor is the lack of a "mainline" suit. Where Zeon had the Zaku II as its baseline for half the show, with several later designs coalescing around it to form a central aesthetic, the Titans... didn't have a strong central hook. Like, they started with the Hi-Zack, AKA "The worse Zaku", then they just kept having different grunt suits which made very little impact on the flow of battle. Like, say what you will about IBO's flood of Grazes, you knew what line of Mobile Suits Gjallarhorn was about. Individual Titan designs could be great (the color scheme was cool, and I quite like the Gaplant), but they didn't come together so you could say "That's a Titan suit." (The AEUG had a similar problem). I suspect the strong unifying visuals for the Feddies and Zack were a big factor in them staying the face of Gundam. (As for Zakus good, GMs bad, that technically covers early Destiny. Just a shame about it being, you know. Destiny.)
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 10:08
|
|
|
ninjewtsu posted:obviously zeon fanboys are a big thing, but are there large groups of people who unironically go "the titans were right" the same way zeon fans do? No, I've only ever seen it jokingly. Everyone seems to accept the Titans as a horrific organization far outstepping its original scope and bounds to essentially become a shadow government (Which is DEFINITELY not like any organizations in real life... ha... ha ha...) The thing that makes so many Zeon fans be Zeon is they tend to only pay attention to the stated reason for Zeon's war, not the actual reason. Zeon: We're fighting for our independence from the Earth Federation. Sounds real sweet, till you pause and ask what they lack regarding independence. To which there's a whole lot of muttering and eventually someone points out that they aren't self-sufficient? I guess? Like even when it comes to the colonies in the Federation, Gundam can't seem to decide if they have representation. A lot of (pro-zeon) media goes "Nope, no representation in parliament at all!" but others make it clear that... yeah, the colonies have reps in the government. And, obviously, this is because Zeon's claim of wanting independence is bullshit. Zeon has its own independent military, industry and everything else to make it a sovereign nation. Side 6 is also an independent nation in space and there's no indication of them not having their own independence. But again, Zeon gets a lot of the Japanese nationalist "It's the Samurai who won't stop fighting after the War has ended, they're loyal to the TRUE Zeon! NOBLE SAMURAI!" Bullshit which is how Gato is somehow a popular character who's death scene is framed as a heroic last stand, not a deluded waste of life after causing mass murder for someone who refuses to put down his gun.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 11:59
|
|
|
It does help Zeon's case that by the time of ZZ, they're the only remaining faction in the solar system with an actual philosophy of government, seeing as the Federation leadership has completely abdicated its responsibilities to its citizenry and is neck-deep in sybaritic apathy, the planet is dying, and humanity is descending into chaos. They're legit your only option if you're from space and want some order and stability in your life.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 12:06
|
|
|
I've met people who legitimately think the Titans were right. Their thought processes are along the lines of "it makes sense that the Feddies would need a force to take out those uppity Spacenoids so we NEVER AGAIN have the OYW". Also they really love the Woundwort.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 12:12
|
|
|
super-redguy posted:I've met people who legitimately think the Titans were right. Their thought processes are along the lines of "it makes sense that the Feddies would need a force to take out those uppity Spacenoids so we NEVER AGAIN have the OYW". To be fair the Woundwort is a beautiful design
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 12:20
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:It does help Zeon's case that by the time of ZZ, they're the only remaining faction in the solar system with an actual philosophy of government, seeing as the Federation leadership has completely abdicated its responsibilities to its citizenry and is neck-deep in sybaritic apathy, the planet is dying, and humanity is descending into chaos. They're legit your only option if you're from space and want some order and stability in your life. Are we talking the Republic Zeon or Neo Zeon? They're... rather different animals.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 13:05
|
|
|
super-redguy posted:I've met people who legitimately think the Titans were right. Their thought processes are along the lines of "it makes sense that the Feddies would need a force to take out those uppity Spacenoids so we NEVER AGAIN have the OYW". The Federation having an anti-terror task force (Which is basically what the concept of the titans is) Perfectly reasonable, especially when, even by ZZ, they're still fighting Zeon remnants hiding on the planet. Especially after Delaz did a Colony. I mean that's what Londo Bell IS. It's the Titans but not run by amoral psychopaths looking to conquer space (for the hidden purpose of driving humanity into space because the leader is a Deikunist and a complete idiot) But the Titans were basically a shadow coup on the federation government performed with the excuse of "Stopping terror attacks"
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 13:10
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:Are we talking the Republic Zeon or Neo Zeon? Neo Zeon. The Republic is a Federation satrapy with the exact same problems of institutional apathy and neglect in the face of encroaching social collapse. We see nothing to suggest they're an island of good government.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 13:12
|
|
|
Onmi posted:Zeon: We're fighting for our independence from the Earth Federation. It's worse than that, Degwin outright confirms that the Federation acknowledged Side 3 as the first autonomous Spacenoid nation 20 odd years ago after Deikun's original uprising, when Degwin reorganized the Side so they already have had independence with 20 odd years. Now, autonomy can be rather an ambiguous term, because empires can grant autonomy to nations within their purview and that allows them only some measure of self determination, but at the same time, Zeon not only had their military etc. but they also had the right to self-governance, given that Deikun's successor could be determined with complete assurance on the part of Degwin solely on Deikun's word. Also, the entire purpose of O'Neill colonies is to be entirely self-sufficient. That's why every colony cylinder has a ring of farming pods at one end. Raw material for industry can also be obtained from pretty much any asteroid you want to reach out and grab in space. As for representation; that's kind of a weird one in UC. There's no mention of it as an issue in 0079, and it's not actually mentioned at all so far as I can determine, until Char's Counterattack, when Bright talks about how some Spacenoids are angry because they have no say in government. However, it is plausible that that's a recent measure as precaution after the One Year War and/or the Gryps conflicts. Maybe not all that likely, but certainly plausible. There's also the fact that Blex Forer in Zeta Gundam, the leader of AEUG, is a member of the Federation assembly and attends meetings at the assembly several times with Char as an assistant. Including mentioning at least once that he's going to try to push for a bill that would have Ereist ideals (i.e. everyone going to space because Earth is hosed up environmentally). It's not clear whether Blex is a Spacenoid though, or who he represents, so whether representation was really an issue Zeon had to contend with at all is kind of ambiguous at best. Darth Walrus posted:It does help Zeon's case that by the time of ZZ, they're the only remaining faction in the solar system with an actual philosophy of government, seeing as the Federation leadership has completely abdicated its responsibilities to its citizenry and is neck-deep in sybaritic apathy, the planet is dying, and humanity is descending into chaos. They're legit your only option if you're from space and want some order and stability in your life. I would argue that that can't be true, because the Federation continued to rule without any real deterioration in stability for 30+ years after that point, and it's only sometime between F91 (UC0123) and Victory (UC0163) that they became so unstable as to no longer be capable of keeping the average citizen from any kind of chaotic lifestyle outside of major uprisings. Which, there weren't even any major ones so far as we know between UC0090(ish) and UC UC0160(ish). The Federation leadership were certainly lazy assholes, but they seemed to have enough power and control regardless of that to keep things going fine for another half century or more.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 13:20
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:Neo Zeon. The Republic is a Federation satrapy with the exact same problems of institutional apathy and neglect in the face of encroaching social collapse. We see nothing to suggest they're an island of good government. We see nothing to suggest they're not. In fact, the Republic of Zeon flat out isn't involved in anything in UC, because they're an independent nation at peace. You're basically going "See how these people literally aren't involved in the wars? That means they're neglectful and causing societal collapse" when nothing in the Republic of Zeon actually implies that. Except for Unicorn, which had to write in a nonsensical Rape of Nanking into the Zinnerman's backstory because otherwise, he's just as patsy fighting for the remnants of remnants. Here's your reminder why the Rape of Side 3 doesn't make any sense 1. The Federation never reached Side 3, the war ended without it even seeing the fart of battle. 2. There's never any indication of the federation occupying the side for any length of time. 3. If the Federation had caused a Rape of Nanking, it's impossible to believe the AEUG wouldn't have formed from that. Given that a major part of the AEUG led by Blex is approval for the federation while focusing on preventing the Titan's from accruing power and revealing them to be the bastards they are. 4. Side 3 has its own army, even after the war. While it's subject to inspection from the Federation, I'm fairly certain the armed forces wouldn't stand by as a colony city is massacred. 5. It's Stupid Evil for the sake of Stupid Evil, it's Fukui desperately trying to justify the bothsidesing of the Federation vs Zeon split when it's not going to work because Zeon were the fuckin' space nazis.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 13:28
|
|
|
I'm a "screw everyone" believer in terms of the UC l established governments, although the big tipping point in terms of that beyond the minor shittiness of the Feds is their leadership seemingly welcoming the Dublin colony drop to keep their citizens under control in ZZ. ZZ in general was a spectacularly poor showing for the Feds even by their standards.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 13:37
|
|
|
Onmi posted:5. It's Stupid Evil for the sake of Stupid Evil, it's Fukui desperately trying to justify the bothsidesing of the Federation vs Zeon split when it's not going to work because Zeon were the fuckin' space nazis. It's so blatant and obvious and I hate it, its one of the worst things about Unicorn.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2020 17:58
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:Neo Zeon. The Republic is a Federation satrapy with the exact same problems of institutional apathy and neglect in the face of encroaching social collapse. We see nothing to suggest they're an island of good government. We do, though. Or at least, enough to suggest they're an island of somewhat-less-bad government. The Prime Minister through all of its existence we've seen chronicled is Darcia Bakharov, a rare exception to the rule that your average Gundam politician is a slimy piece of poo poo. Although the compilation movies only show him as willing to sign the treaty of Granada when Zeon is exhausted, later works flesh him out to a greater extent, and generally in a positive way. In "The Plot to Assassinate Gihren", he discusses how monstrously wrong the road Gihren has lead Zeon down is, and then mentions to his VP that he's planning to negotiate with the Federation. Although this move was supported by Degwin Zabi at the time, it was still legally considered, well, treason. He's not a purely heroic figure, but he does recognize the evils in front of him, and he wants to set them right. Further, in "Space, to the End of a Flash", we see that he's a man of great personal courage, going through an active combat zone to reach Grenada, and attempting to sign a cease fire before A Baoa Qu. Return of Johnny Ridden goes further on the general political landscape, confirming that Zeon's independence, while not as strong as Bakharov's rear end in a top hat son would like, is still enough to give them major political advantages going forward. Several characters even comment that, while the Principality of Zeon lost the war, the Republic of Zeon won the peace. (Plot also ends with the protagonist in Zeon's main legislative body, and he's generally shown to be a good guy.)
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2020 00:18
|
|
|
Decided to break out the ol' gif tools for the first time in a while. I'm really, really enjoying 0079, way more than expected to be honest. Before this I watched War in the Pocket and Unicorn, and people warned me the original MSG might be a bit dated (especially if watching the series instead of the movies), but that shouldn't stop anyone.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2020 01:07
|
|
|
Of course a large part of the incompetence of the Federation comes from the fact that they were dealt a lethal blow the moment Zeon first declared war, it's just that it took them an incredibly long time to actually die from it(until the general timeframe that either G-Savior or Gaia Gear take place in) cause every time they fought anyone who could upset the status quo of them being technically in charge they managed to squeak by with a win
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2020 01:09
|
|
|
Black Griffon posted:Decided to break out the ol' gif tools for the first time in a while. I'm really, really enjoying 0079, way more than expected to be honest. I remember watching through 0079, must have been around 2010-2011. loving loved it. Designs may be a little wonky, but altogether I thought it looked good episode to episode. I am a sucker for that soundtrack though.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2020 02:11
|
|
|
i think when i first watched msg i liked a lot of it ironically, what with all of the silliness. now i love it sincerely.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2020 02:13
|
|
|
drrockso20 posted:Of course a large part of the incompetence of the Federation comes from the fact that they were dealt a lethal blow the moment Zeon first declared war, it's just that it took them an incredibly long time to actually die from it(until the general timeframe that either G-Savior or Gaia Gear take place in) cause every time they fought anyone who could upset the status quo of them being technically in charge they managed to squeak by with a win It didn't help that the war ended with the near annihilation of the Revil faction. But Return shows a lot of Gopp and his desire to keep the federation alive. Arguing that he may be a parasite, but a parasite that does not provide for its host won't survive. He's searching for a forceful, positive figure to bring about a resurgence. EDIT: the thing I hate about the Grand Conspiracy Evil Federation is it makes them way, WAY more boring. The Federation is an interesting figure to me because it's essentially dying and evil not through malice and action, but inaction. The Federation has no will to be proactive and on the ball, people suffer and the environment goes to poo poo because they can't put themselves forward to DO anything about it. Like by Victory, they can't even bring themselves to resist the Zanscare. That's interesting to me, whereas them just being evil conspiracy theory nut jobs who're totes evil is... dull. Onmi fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Mar 17, 2020 |
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2020 02:44
|
|
|
The Federation is just Late Stage Capitalism.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2020 06:09
|
|
|
gimme the GOD drat candy posted:i think when i first watched msg i liked a lot of it ironically, what with all of the silliness. now i love it sincerely. I really want to see a Mobile Suit Gundam get the same kind of remake that Star Blazers got with 2199. That show just sincerely adored its original 70's style and soundtrack  .Pity about 2202 though  .
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2020 06:34
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:The Federation is just Late Stage Capitalism. It really isn't. Since that implies the Federation's problems are putting money over the wellbeing of its citizenry and everything it does is only to accrue wealth. Where as the actual federation does have a bribery problem, but their issue is entirely being to god damned lazy to even make money. That's why traditional cyberpunk aesthetics of advertisements and corporations ruling the world aren't things in Gundam. Not that Gundam is Cyberpunk, but I'm directly drawing a comparison that the "Oh man money rules the world, it's all about those dollars from capitalism" isn't even the fart of a thing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2020 06:37
|
|
|
The problem is that the Federation basically never recovered from the damage sustained to it economically, and honestly it's kinda hard to blame them, not exactly easy to recover from losing more than half of your population as well as multiple colony structures and various other resources, not to mention that every couple of years it seems as if some new group of assholes emerge and cause even more damage, they basically had no real chance at recovery from between 0079 and 0100 and by that point I figure there was just too much damage done to the system for them to really do anything about it even with the several decades of relative peace they had till Mars Zeon and the Crossbone Vanguard emerged
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2020 07:09
|
|
|
The Federation is socialist, not hyper-capitalist. The infamous "Char bribes Federation officials with Nazi Gold" scene in CCA occurs specifically because the Federation is scrabbling to find money to fund exorbitant social welfare and reconstruction projects in the colonies despite the global economy, population, and environment being loving shattered and ruined by 15 years of genocide-level warfare. Selling off an old derelict colony hulk to Char in exchange for a desperately needed cash injection only makes sense. The Federation has problems with corrupt and inept officials, but that's an unavoidable feature of literally any big governmental body in history, and the Federation government is unimaginably vast. drrockso20 posted:The problem is that the Federation basically never recovered from the damage sustained to it economically, and honestly it's kinda hard to blame them, not exactly easy to recover from losing more than half of your population as well as multiple colony structures and various other resources, not to mention that every couple of years it seems as if some new group of assholes emerge and cause even more damage, they basically had no real chance at recovery from between 0079 and 0100 and by that point I figure there was just too much damage done to the system for them to really do anything about it even with the several decades of relative peace they had till Mars Zeon and the Crossbone Vanguard emerged Basically this. Recovering from a shock the size of the OYW would take literally generations - and yet the Federation was dragged into crisis-level disasters over and over and over on a regular basis with no room to breathe or rebuild anything. After the OYW you had Operation Stardust dropping a colony into middle America(the Federation's primary agricultural region!), then the Gryps Conflict which amounted to a Federation civil war where the Federation military basically self-immolated, then the Neo Zeon conflict where Neo Zeon destroyed Dublin and effectively invaded the planet, then CCA, etc, etc, etc. Kanos fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Mar 17, 2020 |
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2020 07:18
|
|
|
All I know is that if I were a Federation officer by the time of Unicorn it'd be a struggle for me to muster the willpower to give a poo poo anymore.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2020 07:27
|
|
|
Pureauthor posted:All I know is that if I were a Federation officer by the time of Unicorn it'd be a struggle for me to muster the willpower to give a poo poo anymore. Thus why Bright's response was "yeah sure let the loving kid pilot the Gundam"
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2020 07:29
|
|
|
If they wanted to keep milking the UC cow, some kind of attempt to use Newtype-powered time divers to revisit and try to prevent/ameliorate the One Year War would be pretty internally consistent. The Earth Federation that managed to build hundreds of enormous, mostly-autonomous space colonies was probably worth saving, even if the tired old dog wasn't.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2020 07:40
|
|
|
https://bigmanga.net/manga/kidou-senshi-gundam-msv-r-johnny-ridden-no-kikan/vol-6-chapter-34/ Here's the chapter of Johnny Ridden where Gopp and Yazan talk about the state of the Earth Sphere after the war. This manga is really good, and for one that lavishes old designs and goes "Oh they're been refitted to be modern on the inside" I didn't find there to be too much "ZEON SO COOL AND GOOD" more "Johnny Ridden is like the loving best"
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2020 08:52
|
|
Black Griffon posted:Decided to break out the ol' gif tools for the first time in a while. I'm really, really enjoying 0079, way more than expected to be honest. I love MSG, and I've always found actually convincing someone to give it a try is always the hardest part. Whether it's a mecha fan who has only watched Gurren Lagann style stuff and is considering branching out, or someone who's never really tried gundam but isn't sure if they should watch a classic, or something more recently like 00. I've never met someone who took the recommendation, watched it and came away disliking it. But so many people are put off by the idea that it's old, that they just won't watch it. Which is a shame because I feel it's still probably one of the strongest gundam series as a whole.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2020 12:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 22:06 |
|
|
The point is the Federation is an colonial power with all the baggage that comes with that. It is inherintly linked to Earth and after all the damage done to the planet they need the colonies but the colonies don't really need Earth anymore. So they can't ever really allow the sides to be independent
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2020 13:53
|
|