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GABA ghoul posted:If you think you can run even a midsized university of 10k students in some podunk village then I don't really know what else to tell you here. I guess you could try to make every village inhabitant simultaneously work 50 jobs as a bar tender, plumber, construction worker, cashier, psychiatrist, nurse and engineer. I guess with enough grit and if only we can overcome the evil forces of capital then everything is possible. The sky is the limit. This post is so bad it hurts. A tiny village doesn't need all of that bullshit you're counting. If population was more spread out, a tiny village would only have appropriate facilities for its size. So maybe a small university with a couple dozen students, and working 50 billion jobs is also completely useless, as every village will need only a tiny amount of these jobs. Seriously, where did you think the students in your fantasy town came from? Either they're from the surrounding country and then we're back centralizing, or you have a facility for 10k students in a place with less then that in total population, which is nuts. Now if we're talking the raising costs of transport to get everything where it needs to go when everyone lives in tiny towns, then we have an argument. But decentralization isn't automatically bad
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Mar 15, 2020 19:26
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The college predates the majority of the town, although the town is like, centuries old in one form or another, still follows the plan of the high street though, and there aren't any large cities nearby. There is a larger town nearby that was entirely constructed during the industrial revolution to supply the steelworks and is currently undergoing a slow motion car crash as a result of deindustrialization so this may be colour my views on urbanization somewhat.
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Mar 15, 2020 19:26
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I think we can all agree that country living Vs city living has its advantages and drawbacks, but at least its not living in the suburbs, those resource gusling, demon-raising hellholes.
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Mar 15, 2020 19:55
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Orange Devil posted:The "natural urbanization process" got started due to peasants being kicked off their land by force through the enclosures. Also got a bunch of houses built cheap for landlords by desperate people.
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Mar 15, 2020 20:24
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Libluini posted:So maybe a small university with a couple dozen students, Eh, I can only speak for my own background, but I don't see that ever working at all for any type of engineering education at least, let alone research.
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Mar 15, 2020 20:50
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Look, if you live in a tiny village, you live in a tiny village forever, unless of course you go to the big city so as to study in the university, then you live in the big city forever because you study in the university forever. It's simple.
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Mar 15, 2020 21:02
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can we, like, turn the british isles into a quarantined zone, let no-one off the drat island? https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1239293055209017346
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Mar 15, 2020 23:36
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see: exhibit B in my "reasons I don't like cities" argument 
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Mar 15, 2020 23:39
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double nine posted:can we, like, turn the british isles into a quarantined zone, let no-one off the drat island? 28 days later *was* a documentary.
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Mar 15, 2020 23:51
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Lol Labour has the next election in the bag at this rate, there literally won't be enough angry gammons to flip marginal constituency anymore
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Mar 16, 2020 05:09
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Shame they'll probably just use it to do blair 2.0
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Mar 16, 2020 05:38
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An insane mind posted:28 days later *was* a documentary. I was thinking more Escape From New York myself but with cockney accents.
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Mar 16, 2020 07:32
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Libluini posted:This post is so bad it hurts. A tiny village doesn't need all of that bullshit you're counting. If population was more spread out, a tiny village would only have appropriate facilities for its size. So maybe a small university with a couple dozen students, and working 50 billion jobs is also completely useless, as every village will need only a tiny amount of these jobs. Seriously, where did you think the students in your fantasy town came from? Either they're from the surrounding country and then we're back centralizing, or you have a facility for 10k students in a place with less then that in total population, which is nuts. Cat Mattress posted:
e. OK, air pollution as in the poo poo that ruins your lungs is a fair point against cities, though that's solved by the kind of policies we'd need in a hypothetical "All-village" situation too. A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Mar 16, 2020 |
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Mar 16, 2020 07:53
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An insane mind posted:28 days later *was* a documentary. Doomsday was prophetic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrUKtJvU3G8
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Mar 16, 2020 09:18
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Lol, the Netherlands is closed and there were lines as far as the eye can see in front of the weed dispensaries because people were stocking up on it.KozmoNaut posted:Doomsday was prophetic. That looks like a hilariously bad movie. I love it.
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Mar 16, 2020 12:20
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Oh, you're gonna love it, the cheese factor is at "high and very British".
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Mar 16, 2020 12:26
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YF-23 posted:I'm sure that's entirely due to urbanisation and not a population/consumption boom. it was, op then fukushima happened, and now it's just as bad as the next place
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Mar 16, 2020 12:36
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Even if nobody was relocated following Fukushima then they'd still be healthier than if they lived in London, which keeps being told by the highest courts that they've got illegal levels of air pollution.
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Mar 16, 2020 13:20
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Sadly all our poilticians have terminal lead brain so they carry on regardless.
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Mar 16, 2020 13:35
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the pollution thing isn't really a point anyone much cares about, for practical purposes it's a lever for city-dwellers to make their lifestyle the ethical one and it's stupid as poo poo because it creates severe and unnecessary divisions. i don't think anybody is proposing we abandon paris, just that continually undermining people's ability to live where they grew up is bad
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Mar 16, 2020 13:35
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let's abandon paris
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Mar 16, 2020 13:37
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I second the motion of leaving the gently caress away from paris
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Mar 16, 2020 13:40
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Guavanaut posted:Even if nobody was relocated following Fukushima then they'd still be healthier than if they lived in London, which keeps being told by the highest courts that they've got illegal levels of air pollution. OTOH Finland has some of the best if not the best air and water quality on earth and we're a sparsely populated nation. And it rules.
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Mar 16, 2020 13:40
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Let's just leave all the skeletons and their lsd in the catacombs and walk away, it's for the best
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Mar 16, 2020 13:42
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Finland isn't real which explains why it keeps achieving these metrics.
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Mar 16, 2020 13:42
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The estimated average loss of life for Fukushima using the J-value method was about 3 months, compared to 4.5 months for living in London and I'd guess similar for Paris. So either only a small fraction of Fukushima residents needed moving, or London and Paris should be evacuated immediately. It's both.
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Mar 16, 2020 13:52
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I'm actually curious to see what the pollution data is gonna be like for Rome, since it's already been one week of total stoppage. Like, it is known for having atrocious air quality, second only to Milan (colloquially known as Mordor among anyone living even slightly to the south of it) and Taranto, where there's a city-sized steel plant. Even more interesting will be to see Paris, Madrid or London after (if, for the UK) containment measures are taken. Coronavirus containment measures may just show people a whole different world.
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Mar 16, 2020 14:43
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Cities centralize pollution, doesn't mean that per capita they're worse. But per capita isn't the only useful measure, actually. Concentration is important. The environment has a natural capacity to absorb most types of pollution up to a certain amount. If you concentrate pollution in one spot, that amount is going to be exceeded. Antifa Poltergeist posted:I second the motion of leaving the gently caress away from paris This was Chirac's primary objective during his long stint as mayor of the city: expel every (non-millionaire) resident, leave only offices and boutiques.
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Mar 16, 2020 15:21
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Guavanaut posted:Even if nobody was relocated following Fukushima then they'd still be healthier than if they lived in London, which keeps being told by the highest courts that they've got illegal levels of air pollution. yeah, it's not due to fukushima itself, it's due to the fact that they now burn coal/natgas for all their power needs. fukushima exclusion zone is probably the healthiest place in japan now lmao
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Mar 16, 2020 15:32
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having lived in Europe and now america lol if you think rural living will save anything, concentrating people leads to less emissions as not everyone has to drive to pick up a tomato, its benefits far outweigh its cons if you look at japan which is concentrated in mega cities and due to that has thriving forests and quite good air quality in cities.
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Mar 16, 2020 15:34
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V. Illych L. posted:the pollution thing isn't really a point anyone much cares about, for practical purposes it's a lever for city-dwellers to make their lifestyle the ethical one and it's stupid as poo poo because it creates severe and unnecessary divisions. i don't think anybody is proposing we abandon paris, just that continually undermining people's ability to live where they grew up is bad How are we underming it? Agricultural subsidies are a non-trivial part of the federal and EU budgets and infrastructure in rural areas are subsidized by city dwellers in that it costs more to service rural areas but everybody pay the same taxes. Services like ambulances, policing and fire fighting are similarly subsidized. Realistically you can't place public institutions in every little village. Manufacturing generally prefer to locate at trade hubs aka cities so they can ship their goods while service based companies favor large populations for the specialized labor. Not a lot we can do about that. Meanwhile automation is decimating jobs in the primary sector. That we can do something about but I doubt anyone really want to. So what du you propose we do?
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Mar 16, 2020 15:57
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Fully Automated Luxury Communes.
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Mar 16, 2020 16:17
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Guavanaut posted:Fully Automated Luxury Communes. With lots of Space.
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Mar 16, 2020 16:19
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Owling Howl posted:How are we underming it? Agricultural subsidies are a non-trivial part of the federal and EU budgets and infrastructure in rural areas are subsidized by city dwellers in that it costs more to service rural areas but everybody pay the same taxes. Services like ambulances, policing and fire fighting are similarly subsidized. idk this isn't my specialty, i'm responding to people proposing we shut down PO programmes to more effectively kill off countryside living it has been done, though, but i expect it would take state interventionism to manage. stuff like planned colocalisation of power-intense industry and power generation, for instance hell, making international shipping slightly less obscenely cheap would help a lot
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Mar 16, 2020 16:47
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Cat Mattress posted:But per capita isn't the only useful measure, actually. Concentration is important. The environment has a natural capacity to absorb most types of pollution up to a certain amount. If you concentrate pollution in one spot, that amount is going to be exceeded.
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Mar 16, 2020 18:40
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The seemingly inherent reactionary nature of rural areas can not. That's a gross and borderline racist generalization. I live in a rural area that has been solidly on the left until very recently (the European elections of 2019 were the first time the right-wing took first place as far as I can remember since I moved there). But even then, it might be interesting to wonder why rural areas would tend to be reactionary, besides of course "those dumb backward inbred rednecks don't deserve the right to live, so says I, an educated intellectual from the city".
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Mar 16, 2020 20:01
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Might have something to do with how after the fall of the Soviet Union the "left" parties slowly decided that exploiting the labor/capital cleavage was now strictly Verboten so they had to turn to something else to define their political identity and conveniently the urban/rural cleavage had remained there and pretty much unsolved since the creation of liberal democracy. Also a few years later, with how capital cities started to become the magnet for all the goddamn capital and population of a country it was easy to see: money and power comes from courting the city-dwellers, so rural society got the gently caress you, move to a city/stop being poor if you want to count for something treatment that today cartel parties reserve for demographics and clienteles that have outlived their usefulness.
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Mar 16, 2020 20:12
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mortons stork posted:Might have something to do with how after the fall of the Soviet Union the "left" parties slowly decided that exploiting the labor/capital cleavage was now strictly Verboten so they had to turn to something else to define their political identity and conveniently the urban/rural cleavage had remained there and pretty much unsolved since the creation of liberal democracy. Did they, though? It feels like the rural areas abandoned the center-left before the center-left abandoned them. And in any case, agricultural and other rural interests, in both the US and Europe, are, if anything disproportionately subsidized by the government, and in the US they have disproportionate political power as well. And in general, right-wing politicians seem to express a lot more contempt for city people than center-left politicians do for rural people. IMO, the resentment a lot of rural people feel is really about culture rather than economics. I'm not wholly committed to what I just wrote above, though; obviously a lot depends on the definition of key terms like "rural" and "reactionary," as well as some quantitative information I'm not particularly familiar with. I'd love to read a more scholarly take on the global urban/rural cultural/political divide, if anyone can recommend one. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Mar 16, 2020 |
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Mar 16, 2020 20:33
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lots of smaller places are in terminal decline and seeing their service provisions increasingly cut in the name of efficiency, they've got very good reasons to be skeptical of the technocratic liberalism of our day they're not a reliable constituency for the left, but they are absolutely available as an ally of convenience and we should try hard to avoid alienating them
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Mar 16, 2020 20:43
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Cat Mattress posted:That's a gross and borderline racist generalization. I live in a rural area that has been solidly on the left until very recently (the European elections of 2019 were the first time the right-wing took first place as far as I can remember since I moved there). But even then, it might be interesting to wonder why rural areas would tend to be reactionary, besides of course "those dumb backward inbred rednecks don't deserve the right to live, so says I, an educated intellectual from the city". The average age in rural areas is something like 10 years above cities. There are also very few immigrants and education level is relatively low. It's not exactly a mystery.
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Mar 16, 2020 20:54
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