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IceAgeComing posted:They were close but aren't anymore: Kenny loving him out of some merch money in 2018 didn't exactly help their relationship, nor indeed Kenny's relationship with New Japan. There are reasons why as soon as they left Ibushi, after years of being this freelancer with no fixed ties and who always wanted to have the ability to leave and go do weird poo poo on a whim, ended up signing a "lifetime contract" with New Japan - its not just them not wanting him on a contract before now since they've wanted him for loving years; its almost seemed to be a reaction to him really not liking the offer he got from AEW and in response just going with New Japan who offered a stronger push and who he seems to trust a lot more. What's the story on the merch money bit?
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Mar 18, 2020 02:42
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Memnaelar posted:Weird inquiry all around. Halloween Jack posted:It's not queerbaiting if two gay actors are not actually dating Hopefully that's cleared up.
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Mar 18, 2020 02:55
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Memnaelar posted:What's the story on the merch money bit? Supposedly Matt's wife didn't cut Ibushi in on merch money from the Golden Elite shirt and he was pissed about it.
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Mar 18, 2020 03:01
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Memnaelar posted:What's the story on the merch money bit? Allegedly Matt's wife stiffed Ibushi on Golden Elite shirt royalties and that caused bad vibes between him and the Elite guys, I don't think it's been particularly substantiated though.
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Mar 18, 2020 03:03
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The other thing about this and Japan: They were that open about it in Japan. It wasn’t played for laughs and jokes, like some other characters (both inside and outside wrestling in Japan) have been; the environment isn’t nearly as open to it as the US or UK would be. It’s not actively hostile, it’s just still very closeted for mainstream culture. (I know there are groups and representation but that is my read on what’s seen on mainstream TV and news reporting).
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Mar 18, 2020 03:39
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the entire reason why queerbaiting is an issue is that it's done by straight people to give lip service to being inclusive without being inclusive. kenny isn't straight, so it's not queerbaiting, period. (furthermore neither is anything else done by queer people who can't confirm things explicitly for whatever reason, like "being on mainstream television")
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Mar 18, 2020 03:57
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GEORGE W BUSHI posted:Supposedly Matt's wife didn't cut Ibushi in on merch money from the Golden Elite shirt and he was pissed about it. And when Kota complained to Kenny he took Matt and Dana’s side Which, lol, they made a shirt specifically off of him working with them and then tried to carnie him out of his cut, how the gently caress does someone take the offending party’s side in that situation I mean, if it’s all true, it also would be understandable that Kota wouldn’t want to be in a promotion where one of the guys who hosed you out of money has power over you as an EVP (and probably part of the booking team) and his wife is in charge of your merch. Especially when on the other side of things Hiroshi Tanahashi has been begging you to take his spot in the company since, like, the Nakamura Dome match and the company itself is like “oh hell yes we are fine with that”. Plus the whole “Kota hates international travel/always gets lost overseas” thing.
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Mar 18, 2020 03:58
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also it's kind of gross to rumormonger about people's relationships like this when they've specifically been private about it!
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Mar 18, 2020 04:02
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It looks like it got taken down but there was a big Explainer video of the Golden Lovers by someone who did a lot of NJPW explainer videos that really highlighted the queer subtext of the storyline and called it a love story and Kenny Omega retweeted it when it was posted but I have no idea how to search for that. I don't know if that matters for the context of this conversation, but could someone confirm I'm not making that up?
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Mar 18, 2020 05:41
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Edge & Christian posted:It looks like it got taken down but there was a big Explainer video of the Golden Lovers by someone who did a lot of NJPW explainer videos that really highlighted the queer subtext of the storyline and called it a love story and Kenny Omega retweeted it when it was posted but I have no idea how to search for that. no, it was real, i think showbuckle was the channel name. new japan threw a fit and had most of their poo poo taken down for using footage.
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Mar 18, 2020 06:02
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Didn't he just move his operation off of youtube to some other free site?
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Mar 18, 2020 06:14
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Showbuckle still has a channel on Dailymotion, but not all of his videos are on there https://www.dailymotion.com/showbuckle Unfortunately it looks like the Golden Lovers one is lost to time, unless there's a ripped version out there that I haven't been able to find yet.
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Mar 18, 2020 06:28
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if it's the video i'm thinking of, it was based off a tweet thread whose author collected and annotated said tweets over here: https://medium.com/we-need-to-talk-about-wrestling/that-one-tweet-thread-about-the-golden-lovers-annotated-e9fc604e3a7f
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Mar 18, 2020 08:42
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Benne posted:Showbuckle still has a channel on Dailymotion, but not all of his videos are on there https://www.dailymotion.com/showbuckle Pretty sure this is the same drive I downloaded Showbuckle's stuff from last year. The Golden Lovers video is in this pack. https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1rwDlsrA4Gqs2yTSyBV8uHnblFrMFRUKm e: Just noticed the Young Lions video is not on his Dailymotion account either. Watch that one it's tops SG Bamboo fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Mar 18, 2020 |
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Mar 18, 2020 09:20
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Didn't the Golden Elite merch rumors come from Chase Owens allegedly, who seemed to have genuinely befriended Ibushi? I really wish their match in New Beginning USA had pushed through...
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Mar 18, 2020 09:52
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I'm trying to make a list of possible huge, money making main event angles and storylines WWE managed to gently caress up, within the last 20 years or so. 1) Nexus. 2) Summer of Punk, probably the dumbest one, since it fell into their laps and they went out of their way to gently caress it up. That's all I got so far.
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Mar 18, 2020 10:36
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uhm .. the WCW invasion?
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Mar 18, 2020 10:46
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MrBling posted:uhm .. the WCW invasion? holy poo poo how did i blank on the invasion, jesus Vince might as well have set millions of dollars on loving fire
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Mar 18, 2020 10:56
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I'd put the ECW revival in this category too. If they'd operated it arms-length it could have become their "tame indie" and led to fun stuff, but they operated it like a WWE farm league.
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Mar 18, 2020 11:36
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harperdc posted:The other thing about this and Japan: They were that open about it in Japan. It wasn’t played for laughs and jokes, like some other characters (both inside and outside wrestling in Japan) have been; the environment isn’t nearly as open to it as the US or UK would be. It’s not actively hostile, it’s just still very closeted for mainstream culture. (I know there are groups and representation but that is my read on what’s seen on mainstream TV and news reporting). Yeah, this is basically the crux of it because I don't see how faking being a gay couple in Japan in 2009 would give you any props or a leg up. So why would they do it if there's no benefit? Also I'm pretty sure that nobody ITT actually has any real insight into the sex lives of either Kenny or Kota, so all this just boils down to speculation.
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Mar 18, 2020 12:01
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To be honest I assumed they were an actualy ex couple from the way everyone around here talked about it/them. It never occurred to me that people might be "kayfabing."
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Mar 18, 2020 12:23
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Randaconda posted:I'm trying to make a list of possible huge, money making main event angles and storylines WWE managed to gently caress up, within the last 20 years or so. WCW/ECW Invasion Undisputed Champion Chris Jericho Booker T winning the World Title at Wrestlemania and the complete lack of willingness to go with he or RVD when the two were the hottest acts to stick around after the Invasion Goldberg Devil's Advocate Sean O'Haire (debatable, but everyone thought it was a super cool gimmick for a long time after) Underdog champions Eddie & Benoit having complete nothing feuds post WM20 Randy Orton vs Evolution Guys like Jericho and Christian in locked endless midcard purgatory Making the tag team divisions on each show complete afterthoughts when the TLC Crew and the Smackdown Six were some of the most lauded periods in tag team wrestling history Refusing to pull the trigger on turning Cena heel early on and potentially having another star as beloved and versatile as The Rock because they didn't want to miss out on 6 months of t-shirt sales The Divas era (+ the butterfly belt) Rey's abysmal first World Title reign Massive devaluing of midcard championships, and even world championships at points Not letting Heyman do what he wanted with WWECW and just making it a lovely C-show Treating indie stars of the era like they weren't worth the time of day Oversaturation of and overreliance on Cena, Orton, and Batista Cena's success in spite of massive negative reaction leading almost directly to the prevailing mindset over the next decade of "gently caress you, you don't know what you want, I'll tell you what you want," which you could argue Vince always had, but got way more stubborn about as time marched on Transitioning Michael Cole to lead announcer, a decision that continues to haunt us to this very day Calendar-locked gimmick PPVs Giving Money in the Bank to Jack Swagger for some reason The Nexus Miz as champion (happened too early, should've been ultimate coward heel champ, feuded with Lawler for some goddamn reason, got concussed & had a bad mania match, etc) Summer of Punk The Coward And Blatant Heel John Cena Coercing A Wounded Rey Mysterio Into Defending His Newly Won Championship Against A Fresh Opponent Less Than 2 Hours After Winning It. We Will Never Forget This Injustice, John. Hall of Pain 18 Seconds Putting a lot of time and energy into Alberto Del Rio and Sheamus as top champions Spitefully killing the self-made grassroots campaign of newly found midcard sensation Zack Ryder because he wasn't supposed to get over and gently caress you for actually grabbing the brass ring we're always telling you to grab Punk's title reign almost always playing second fiddle to Cena + inadvisably turning heel halfway through it Tout (lmfao) Guys like Cody Rhodes and Cesaro locked in endless midcard purgatory Dolph Ziggler (who may have been always bad but he was red loving hot in 2012-2013) Cena vs Orton for the 846th time Cena vs Orton for the 847th time The exhausting, frustrating 8 month ordeal of Daniel Bryan's Summerslam-to-Mania The follow-up feud with...... Kane. The Wyatt Family Ambrose vs Rollins feud interrupted by hologram Triple H and The Authority opening every goddamn episode of Raw like it was 2003 and he finally found a new (worse) Evolution, except this time his wife was there too Lesnar beginning his trend of holding a championship hostage for months at a time, while nothing is done to elevate the midcard belts to potentially take its place whatsoever The Roman Experiment begins in earnest, everyone saw it coming 8 months prior and nobody wanted anything to do with it Bryan is sacrificed at the alter of Roman, which the fans are having exactly none of Seth's title reign kills my personal interest in watching WWE for good (it is also emblematic of WWE's current absolute nonsensical storytelling; The Authority put him in place as their chosen face of WWE, but continuously create obstacles for him while offering no help. Like what do you want from this guy, Steph, it feels like you're secretly training your coward heel champion to become a valiant babyface???) The first victims of the NXT Callup are felt: Bo Dallas, Adam Rose, the Ascension, and Tyler Breeze all completely fail to do anything on the main roster but flounder and make people depressed and dread when the next round of callups would happen. The Quest To Coronate Roman Continues At Wrestlemania 32 Women's wrestling in WWE is taken more seriously; unfortunately this means they now get all the bad, short-sighted booking and flat scripted promos of the men's roster, all while WWE loudly and repeatedly pats themselves on the back for how progressive they are. But hey, no more butterfly belt! Guys like Rusev and Cesaro locked in endless midcard purgatory The second brand split completely overshadows the Shield Triple Threat, and Dean's run as champion is mostly an afterthought The Universal Championship is introduced as WWE's first ever permanently cursed title Cruiserweight Classic is a huge success, and leads to the reintroduction of a Cruiserweight Division on WWE TV. They are segregated from the rest of the roster and treated like a batch of contagious weirdos, and their matches get no time and are never treated with any amount of weight or respect Vince, HHH, and Dunn try as hard as they can to kill the best thing going in WWE at the tail end of 2016 and beginning of 2017, the Kevin Owens/Chris Jericho storyline. This leads to a disappointing US title match 3rd on the card instead of the Universal Championship match they should have had Braun Strowman is sacrificed at the altar of Roman The Quest To Coronate Roman Continues At Wrestlemania 33 Bray Wyatt and Randy Orton have a terrible championship feud, which directly leads to........... Jinder. Jinder. Creative frustrations after the Festival of Friendship debacle lead Jericho to strike a deal with New Japan Pro Wrestling and eventually parting ways for good with WWE, which contributes to the steady rise of NJPW's western following and eventually the birth of AEW Japanese stars Shinsuke Nakamura and Asuka win the 2018 Royal Rumbles to great reception by fans only to both fail in their title matches and be made to look like complete buffoons in the months afterward. NXT callups continue to disappoint Guys like Sami Zayn and Cesaro locked in endless midcard purgatory Brock holds Braun Strowman once again sacrificed at the altar of Roman Daniel Bryan makes seemingly impossible comeback to wrestling after being forced to retire 2 years prior, spends most of 2018 being completely wasted in heatless feuds with Big Cass and Miz The Quest To Coronate Roman Continues At Wrestlemania 34 WWE enters a 10 year deal to serve as a propaganda tool for Saudi Arabia, in exchange for money they allegedly haven't actually been paid yet Guys like Finn Balor and Cesaro locked in endless midcard purgatory Shane McMahon is just all over the goddamn show it's a drat disgrace Braun Strowman once again sacrificed at the altar of Roman Seth, Dean, Ziggler, and a returning Drew McIntyre also used as tools for the sole purpose of getting Roman over Joe "Roman Reigns" Anoa'i announces his Leukemia has returned, vacates Universal title, forced to leave for 4 months, possibly exposing a teensy flaw in Vince's grand vision in the process Dean Ambrose made to turn heel at the expense of Roman's leukemia announcement and have poorly booked feud with Seth that neither particularly want, while behind the scenes fighting Vince tooth and nail to prevent the complete assassination of his character while being told "it's such good poo poo! This is YOU!" This leads directly to Jon Moxley's resurgence and career renaissance upon leaving WWE Many rate 2019 as one of the worst years creatively in WWE's history. Kofi Kingston's WWE championship win is widely praised but the ensuing title reign proves lackluster and it ends extremely poorly. The rest of the company is plauged by a series of poorly thought out, reactionary format changes such as the WILDCARD RULE! and the now bi-annual SUPERSTAR SHAKEUP! along with an increased reliance on an ever decreasing pool of nostalgia acts and part-time champions. Also there was that weird poo poo with the 2/3 falls matches Seth Rollins' reigns as champion is marred by an extended Baron Corbin feud, the obnoxious pushing of his relationship with Becky Lynch, and proving to be a real unlikable piece of work on twitter all year Guys like Aleister Black and Andrade (and Cesaro) locked in endless midcard purgatory Baron Corbin is just all over the goddamn show it's a drat disgrace Shorty G. And that leads us into 2020 where I'm sure you know what's happened so far. At some point this morphed from me listing out "WWE's Biggest Missed $$$ Opportunities" and more just typing out all the stupid garbage they've done but I'd like to think most of that stuff at least partially contributed to the spot they've been in recently where the only things keeping them going at the level they are are these outrageous TV deals and Saudi blood money that they probably don't actually have yet
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Mar 18, 2020 12:36
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god i didn't even mention the cucking gently caress this company
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Mar 18, 2020 12:53
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ah yes DDT the home of the GAY World Anal Championship was queerbaiting out of fear of explicit homosexuality
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Mar 18, 2020 13:07
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TriffTshngo posted:god i didn't even mention the cucking after that (entirely accurate and incredibly thought out enormous list) this is just the *chef's kiss* on top of it all I stopped giving WWE my money and time just before the Jinder reign started, and while I still have a cursory knowledge of what's going on, my god putting it all down like that is just further proof we're not going insane, Vince is just this loving bad.
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Mar 18, 2020 13:20
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TriffTshngo posted:WCW/ECW Invasion Jesus loving Christ. I've missed most of this since I stopped watching WWE on any sort of regular basis and 
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Mar 18, 2020 13:47
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Randaconda posted:Jesus loving Christ. I've missed most of this since I stopped watching WWE on any sort of regular basis and You absolutely made the right decision.
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Mar 18, 2020 13:55
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Every time someone says "ECW invasion" I actually briefly forget about that one episode of RAW where they invaded and then joined the Alliance and think of that time in like '97 when they did the invasion angle the first time and WWE never followed up on it. And then I think of the NWA Invasion and I chuckle.
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Mar 18, 2020 14:25
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Lamuella posted:You absolutely made the right decision. I quit watching anything current after they totally hosed up the Summer of Punk, when I (finally) realized they had no idea what they were doing, and had no idea what to do when a hot storyline fell into their laps. You'd think the Invasion and Nexus would have taught me
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Mar 18, 2020 14:36
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STAC Goat posted:Every time someone says "ECW invasion" I actually briefly forget about that one episode of RAW where they invaded and then joined the Alliance and think of that time in like '97 when they did the invasion angle the first time and WWE never followed up on it. Seeing Cornette managing the Rock and Roll Express was just bizarre
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Mar 18, 2020 14:37
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At least I can still watch old NWA and WCW stuff and AEW for my pro wrasslin' fix. I prefer southern style wrestling anyway
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Mar 18, 2020 14:39
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STAC Goat posted:Every time someone says "ECW invasion" I actually briefly forget about that one episode of RAW where they invaded and then joined the Alliance and think of that time in like '97 when they did the invasion angle the first time and WWE never followed up on it. They continued the promotional feud in ECW with Lawler invading their turf (with help from Sabu, RVD, and I want to say Louie Spicolli). Some people like Jim Cornette, Sunny, Rick Rude, and I really want to say Jake Roberts, were also involved with the feud on the WWF's side. The blowoff was Tommy Dreamer beating Jerry Lawler at Hardcore Heaven.
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Mar 18, 2020 15:29
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TriffTshngo posted:WCW/ECW Invasion Look pal you can make anything look bad if you just cherry-pick all the bad stuff
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Mar 18, 2020 15:58
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Randaconda posted:Seeing Cornette managing the Rock and Roll Express was just bizarre he didn't manage the Rock and Roll Express, he managed the New Midnight Express of Bob Holly and Bart Gunn and then got peeved when they had the two of them fight in the Brawl 4 All without any buildup
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Mar 18, 2020 18:00
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Cornette brought in the Rock n Roll express then kicked them out of his stable for the new Midnights. He also probably thought everyone cared a great deal about his history and the symbolism in doing so
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Mar 18, 2020 18:07
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Aku posted:They continued the promotional feud in ECW with Lawler invading their turf (with help from Sabu, RVD, and I want to say Louie Spicolli). Some people like Jim Cornette, Sunny, Rick Rude, and I really want to say Jake Roberts, were also involved with the feud on the WWF's side. The blowoff was Tommy Dreamer beating Jerry Lawler at Hardcore Heaven. I believe Spicolli was an ECW guy at the time. I think they briefly used Brakkus because he was there on loan to get seasoning. I don't remember Sunny but I guess maybe she did a one off or two because of Candido. Lawler and Cornette did multiple stuff in ECW but that was more of a USWA/Smokey Mountain vs ECW feud really with RVD and Sabu carrying all the weight for the "invader" side in ECW. But there was no followup in WWF beyond that one RAW where the ECW crew took over and the crowd went crazy. Then after that it was just over in WWF. Its like the ROH vs CZW feud where ROH did a whole angle and blowoff and CZW just... forgot it was happening. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Mar 18, 2020 |
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Mar 18, 2020 18:18
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TriffTshngo posted:WCW/ECW Invasion You forgot Sting!
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Mar 18, 2020 19:23
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Let's hire Sting, have him lose to Triple H at WrestleMania, then send Rollins out to end his career!
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Mar 18, 2020 19:45
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I don't really count Sting because, as much as he should've won at Wrestlemania, I don't think it really hurt him that much as a potential draw. The injury against Seth was an accident so while in hindsight the run feels underwhelming because it was 2 losses and then it was over, it was kind of out of their control.
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Mar 18, 2020 19:50
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Pope Corky the IX posted:Let's hire Sting, have him lose to Triple H at WrestleMania, then send Rollins out to end his career! The most WWE sentence on Earth.
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Mar 18, 2020 20:00
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