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His Divine Shadow posted:Enter the euro 
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Mar 17, 2020 13:45
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OwlFancier posted:Are germans supposed to be very frugal or something? I don't know any german stereotypes other than not funny which is extremely wrong imo. It's a stereotype that harkens back to their collective trauma of the Weimar Era, which gets a kind of retcon of "bad finance made us develop Nazis" which is currently true in that they are currently doing bad finance and the Nazis are coming back.
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Mar 17, 2020 13:47
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Dawncloack posted:And then the question is, did they not see this coming because greed and thr shine of the euro or did they presume bailouts? They likely presumed bailouts. Then after 2008, they knew they were guaranteed bailouts, so they've spent the last 10 years doing the same poo poo but harder. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Mar 17, 2020 |
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Mar 17, 2020 13:50
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Tesseraction posted:It's a stereotype that harkens back to their collective trauma of the Weimar Era, which gets a kind of retcon of "bad finance made us develop Nazis" which is currently true in that they are currently doing bad finance and the Nazis are coming back.
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Mar 17, 2020 13:52
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Does Gaussian Copula still read this thread?
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Mar 17, 2020 13:55
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Guavanaut posted:I think it goes back way further as a stereotype. The radical preachers and theologians of the Reformation were stereotyped as being frugal and austere (and possibly joyless) as compared to the joyous and jovial (or lazy and simoniac and idolatrous, depending on which side you were on) Catholics. Interesting, although I'd argue that the hyperinflation era may well have been seen as them breaking the stereotype and therefore they must NEVER do that again.
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Mar 17, 2020 13:55
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Tesseraction posted:It's a stereotype that harkens back to their collective trauma of the Weimar Era, which gets a kind of retcon of "bad finance made us develop Nazis" which is currently true in that they are currently doing bad finance and the Nazis are coming back. And just to reiterate a point I've made many times, the hyperinflation happened in the early twenties. And then it ended. Completely. The Nazi's didn't start really happening until the late 20s and early 30s. Hyperinflation did not in any way lead to the Nazi's. The Great Depression did play an important role, but that had nothing to do with inflation. Basically the Germans have been focusing on avoiding the wrong thing, and in doing so have likely contributed to once again causing the same actual thing as last time. And this is a very widespread misreading of history. For example, the war museum in Caen perpetuates this falsehood in its exhibition on the causes of the rise of Nazism. Both in its exhibits and its tours.
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Mar 17, 2020 13:56
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Dawncloack posted:Does Gaussian Copula still read this thread? Seems he was banned in 2018 for suggesting eradicating Palestinians as a culture.
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Mar 17, 2020 13:57
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I want to buy him a rereg and I woyld even give money to him to livestream himself reading out loud and commenting the news once DB capsizes. Like, for real, anyone want to pool??
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Mar 17, 2020 13:59
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There would be a livechat to tell him he is a dumbass, obvs.
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Mar 17, 2020 14:00
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The pop psychology explanation I've seen is that in Dutch and German guilt and debt are both the same word. So there's supposedly more moral judgement we impart on financial debt than is warranted. I'm neither economist or psychologist, but I'm Dutch and definitely feel some irrational guilt about the debts I've taken on.
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Mar 17, 2020 14:30
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AlexanderCA posted:The pop psychology explanation I've seen is that in Dutch and German guilt and debt are both the same word. So there's supposedly more moral judgement we impart on financial debt than is warranted. I'm neither economist or psychologist, but I'm Dutch and definitely feel some irrational guilt about the debts I've taken on. Read "Debt: The First Five Thousand Years" by David Graeber. Absolutely not pop psychology (professional anthropology actually), and makes some very compelling arguments about our emotional responses to debt. Like for real, if you haven't read it yet, if there's one book you read this year, make it this one.
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Mar 17, 2020 14:35
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Solve your guilt but having only debts of blood.
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Mar 17, 2020 14:40
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OwlFancier posted:How the gently caress do you bankrupt a loving bank. People literally give you money for fucks sake. You commit literally ALL THE CRIMES but very stupidly. Also you get a very staid, placid German bank and then unleash it - like a baby fawn in the wild - and tell it to grow a massive Wall Street subsidiary that becomes wayyy bigger than the mothership because your CEO needs to have a bigger dick. Then you hire a whole bunch of reprehensible villains to run your out of control wall street shop and they create so many wild and insane derivatives that no-one knows wtf is up. Then the market crashes in 2008 and then all your bets of European state debt turn up lovely. ( I just finished Dark Towers, a new book on DB, sooo much crime)
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Mar 17, 2020 15:09
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Debt, like theft, is morally dependent on who you're doing it to. But practically bad because the law takes a dim view of it and will put the screws on you for it. If the law is not a problem and the person or organization you're lending from is a shithead, it's actually great!
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Mar 17, 2020 15:12
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Me: crimes, crimes Debtors: crimes, crimes, crimes DB, pounding the clipboard: CRIMES, CRIMES, CRIMES
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Mar 17, 2020 15:15
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Orange Devil posted:And just to reiterate a point I've made many times, the hyperinflation happened in the early twenties. And then it ended. Completely. The Nazi's didn't start really happening until the late 20s and early 30s. Hyperinflation did not in any way lead to the Nazi's. The Great Depression did play an important role, but that had nothing to do with inflation. You're full of poo poo. Read up on the Weltwirtschaftskrise and its effects on the German Reich before posting what looks like a mix of misunderstanding and falsehoods.
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Mar 17, 2020 16:13
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His story lines up well with what I read in Mark Blyths book on austerity so I'm going with that being the right interpretation.
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Mar 17, 2020 16:20
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Reflections85 fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Mar 17, 2020 |
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Mar 17, 2020 17:11
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Dawncloack posted:Are markets stupid Dawncloack posted:or do they just encourage greed? Reflections85 posted:Could you expand on this? I thought the Weltwirtschaftskrise was the Great Depression and that depressions in general (and that one in particular) were associated with deflation. I thought in particular that Brüning chose a policy of deflation in response to the Great Depression. Yeah. Also Hjalmar Schacht, who was a stubborn proponent of austerity and deflation until the Nazis got into power, and then had a change of heart and became a big fan of public spending and investment to put the country back on its feet. Kind of like if the plan all along was to weaken the Weimar Republic with austerity and deflation so as to allow fascism to take control, and then, once this goal was achieved, the self-sabotaging stupidity of austerity was abandoned because they always knew it cannot work.
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Mar 17, 2020 17:27
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Isn't the Weltwirtschaftskrise when all the pubs are closed?
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Mar 17, 2020 17:27
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Libluini posted:You're full of poo poo. Read up on the Weltwirtschaftskrise and its effects on the German Reich before posting what looks like a mix of misunderstanding and falsehoods.
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Mar 17, 2020 17:53
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Cat Mattress posted:Yeah. Also Hjalmar Schacht, who was a stubborn proponent of austerity and deflation until the Nazis got into power, and then had a change of heart and became a big fan of public spending and investment to put the country back on its feet. Kind of like if the plan all along was to weaken the Weimar Republic with austerity and deflation so as to allow fascism to take control, and then, once this goal was achieved, the self-sabotaging stupidity of austerity was abandoned because they always knew it cannot work. I mean that might not have been the precise plan, but it is literally the case that the top brass of German society, especially the aristocracy and their supporters who still held great influence in the military and other public services, were very much explicitly against democracy and wanted to do away with the Weimar Republic and see a return to monarchy and/or aristocratic-military rule. A bunch of them, including top dogs like Hindenburg figured, after ~1930 that they could use and manipulate the Nazis towards this end. There also seem to me to be many narratives that over-emphasize the economic argument and fail to account for just how pervasive the "Stab in the Back" myth was in Germany and how it was further encouraged to develop and grow by those same reactionary politicians and aristocrats. This includes those who were directly responsible (in that they held supreme command) for Germany's military defeat in WWI, who, once they could, shovelled all the blame over on the new democratic authorities, and the associated "Jews, Socialists and Republicans". That was highly influential in the growth and shaping of extremist parties in Weimar Germany, of which the Nazis weren't the only one, but eventually grew to eclipse all the others. Another thing that also drew the ire, and again nurtured the growth of the German far right, was the nature of of the economic success in the 20s, which saw Germany being tightly bound to the American economy*. The extreme nationalists despised this because it implied an abandonment of German independence and self-sufficiency and the ambition to be the supreme European military power and use that to Germany's advantage. There was also the matter of the growing importance of international finance, which the German extreme right and the military aristocracy were united in despising, the Nazis like many of the other extreme nationalists wanted to support (and direct) German industry, and spend massively on military buildups and agricultural programs (they had a real hard-on for autarky). *Which really came home to roost with the Great Depression, and was even further exacerbated as the German government refused to abandon the gold standard and as the Mark grew massively overvalued it essentially collapsed German exports.
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Mar 17, 2020 18:03
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Cat Mattress posted:Yeah. Also Hjalmar Schacht, who was a stubborn proponent of austerity and deflation until the Nazis got into power, and then had a change of heart and became a big fan of public spending and investment to put the country back on its feet. Kind of like if the plan all along was to weaken the Weimar Republic with austerity and deflation so as to allow fascism to take control, and then, once this goal was achieved, the self-sabotaging stupidity of austerity was abandoned because they always knew it cannot work. The nazis were thoroughly bankrupting Germany though. It only avoided collapse because it could loot annexed or occupied territories and the property of undesirables. They were practically bankrupt in 1938 but on 9 november there was a sudden and fortuitous influx of cash. Nazi economic policy was, like most things they did, insane.
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Mar 17, 2020 18:05
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The whole 'demanding austerity right until they get in power and spend all the money on things they want' trick might be one of the most enduring legacies.
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Mar 18, 2020 06:57
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Orange Devil posted:It's darkly hilarious that the so-called "German" bank is actually the one being wildly risky and irresponsible with its money, given the German populace's predilections. There's some good Mark Blyth bits about this in his famous youtube talks. We are not good at it  Owling Howl posted:The nazis were thoroughly bankrupting Germany though. It only avoided collapse because it could loot annexed or occupied territories and the property of undesirables. They were practically bankrupt in 1938 but on 9 november there was a sudden and fortuitous influx of cash. Nazi economic policy was, like most things they did, insane. Nektu fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Mar 18, 2020 |
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Mar 18, 2020 08:11
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e: wrong thread!
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Mar 18, 2020 08:42
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The whole 'demanding austerity right until they get in power and spend all the money on things they want' trick might be one of the most enduring legacies. As far as I know the Nazis were never demanding austerity. They specifically wanted to get in power and spend money on re-arming and expanding the miliary, as well as agricultural projects. It is worth emphasizing that the German economy was doing very well in the mid and late 20s, and was then hit excessively hard by the Great Depression due to economic ties with the US (Germany had grown particularly dependent on American capital, which dried up come the Depression) and Germany staying on the gold standard to avoid hyperinflation. Even so the economy was actually showing signs of recovery by the time the Nazis were invited into the government. It needs to be remembered that the Nazis weren't so much swept into government on the wave of a disaster caused by austerity as they were specifically invited into government by reactionary politicians and aristocrats who thought that they could use Hitler and the Nazis to further their own political agenda, which was anti-Weimar and anti-democratic/republican.
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Mar 18, 2020 08:55
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Basically the Junkers get off way too easy when most talk about the Nazi's rise to power. poo poo goes all the way back to the Freikorps.
Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Mar 18, 2020 |
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Mar 18, 2020 08:59
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Orange Devil posted:Basically the Junkers get off way too easy when most talk about the Nazi's rise to power. poo poo goes all the way back to the Freikorps. Yup. Even precedes the Freikorps slightly I would say. People like Ludendorff and Hindenburg were disseminating and encouraging the Stab in the Back Myth almost as soon as they had shovelled responsibility onto civilian authorities, whom Ludendorff specifically tasked with negotiating a ceasefire, because he knew the war was lost. With that safely done, they almost immediately started blaming the new democratic government for having betrayed the undefeated German army, and that insidious domestic forces of Jews, socialists and war-profiteers had sapped domestic morale. That was essentially a start signal for extremist nationalist parties to begin to form, and for the Freikorps to organize.
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Mar 18, 2020 09:16
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Mark Blyth posted:In Germany what happened was, after short term capital from the United States post- the '23 inflation had made Germany the most stable and fastest growing economy in Europe at that point in time, there was a swap in the agreement governing war debts that meant war debts got seniority. The American capital pulled out to take advantage of the stock market boom in 1928-29 and a federal interest rate increase. You get 7% for sticking it in a bank, so why would you put it in Germany, right? A lot of capital goes flying out. The entire talk is absolutely worth a watch, but that part has always stuck in my mind. Austerity breeds fascism, all the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQuHSQXxsjM
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Mar 18, 2020 09:37
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Venomous posted:The entire talk is absolutely worth a watch, but that part has always stuck in my mind. Austerity breeds fascism, all the time. Well, yeah, if the fascists are the only ones opposing it.
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Mar 18, 2020 09:42
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They seem to be the ones who can mostly capitalize on it.
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Mar 18, 2020 10:13
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Randarkman posted:Well, yeah, if the fascists are the only ones opposing it. I somehow doubt the KPD was not opposing austerity at the time.
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Mar 18, 2020 10:25
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Orange Devil posted:I somehow doubt the KPD was not opposing austerity at the time. Most likely they were. According to Mark Blyth in the quote above though, the Nazis were the only ones. e: Poorly worded. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Mar 18, 2020 |
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Mar 18, 2020 10:27
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Randarkman posted:Likely not. According to Mark Blyth in the quote above though, the Nazis were the only ones. Yeah but I mean, the man does have a penchant for rhetorical flourish. It makes him an effective lecturer.
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Mar 18, 2020 10:31
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Orange Devil posted:I somehow doubt the KPD was not opposing austerity at the time. He said parties, not Soviet infiltration fronts
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Mar 18, 2020 10:42
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Orange Devil posted:I somehow doubt the KPD was not opposing austerity at the time. Did they ever stop trying to poo poo up the SPD for long enough to form a coherent policy package?
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Mar 18, 2020 10:43
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so that means I can be a cheapskate and post about posting instead of having some wit or spending any more on comedy avs for people. Which I'm also incapable of. Comedy.
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quote:We also continue testing the robustness of our analysis and explore whether austerity impacted the Communist party vote share as a falsification test (Table A2 of the Appendix). While austerity is insignificant or statistically and negatively associated with the communists, unemployment is consistently positively and significantly associated with the communist vote share for the different measures of austerity. Improvements in the economy also brought new votes to the KPD. Based on these results it appears that austerity focused attention on the Nazis’ platform while the Communists benefited from high unemployment rates and improvements in the economy. As seen in the introduction, relevant literature also stresses that “the Communist Party was the main party of protest (rather than the Nazi Party) for those workers disenchanted by the Weimar regime” (Satyanath et al. 2017, 486). https://www.anderson.ucla.edu/Documents/areas/fac/gem/nazi_austerity.pdf (I think this is the paper underpinning this recent resurgence of this argument - I have seen it mentioned in Jacobin... it is interesting, but worth noting that is not the mainstream view on the Nazi voting base. Falter's 1991 book "Hitler's Wähler" remains influential on current views, I think; Falter argued convincingly that the NSDAP had no real consistent class basis in its support, saw very volatile swings, and functioned as a catch-all protest party) e: another take, quite similar: https://gking.harvard.edu/files/gking/files/nazivp.pdf quote:Of the two groups most hurt by the economic depression, we find that the working poor—self-employed shopkeepers and professionals, domestic workers, and helping family members—were the main group that wound up moving to support the Nazis. In Catholic precincts, domestic workers remained loyal to the SPD and especially the Zentrum (ronya note: the Centre Party), consistent with the multifaceted incentives encouraging them to do so—in particular, Nazi policies on agriculture unattractive for people living in the South and the West, welfare programs embedded in a network of social and political organizations with close ties to the Zentrum, and the power of incentives emanating from the Catholic Church. The other group fatally hurt was the unemployed, which wound up supporting the Communists (though some Protestant unemployed voted for the SPD). This finding is consistent with current understandings of the incentives of these voters. (note that unemployed support was a particularly intractable problem for the KPD of the time... it clashed sharply with the doctrinal adherence to the general strike. One cannot meaningfully disrupt the economy by striking if one has no job to strike from. The supporters the KPD desperately wanted - those who remained on factory floors - were prone to remaining stubbornly SPD) ronya fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Mar 18, 2020 |
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Mar 18, 2020 11:49
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Retarded Goatee posted:Did they ever stop trying to poo poo up the SPD for long enough to form a coherent policy package? The SPD sent the Freikorps after Liebknecht and Luxemburg. making GBS threads up the class traitors of the SPD is a coherent policy package and a commendable activity for over a century now.
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Mar 18, 2020 12:34
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