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New Yorp New Yorp posted:My point is you should be capping Ygg and EXP before worrying about capping anything else in Magic NGUs. By cap, do you mean the diminishing returns cap. Or the CAP cap? Inexplicable Humblebrag posted:i am at the beginning of ngu and nothing any of what you say makes any sense Wait til we talk about your PP.
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Mar 16, 2020 02:39
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I got 3000 points more in PP progress gain overnight plus a bunch more stuff. I'll probably be hitting diminishing returns pretty hard soon, but this is still a pretty nice improvement. Don't neglect Normal NGUs when you go into Evil.
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Mar 16, 2020 09:28
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Manuel Calavera posted:By cap, do you mean the diminishing returns cap. Or the CAP cap? Likely BB, when you fill the bar and you are earnings it at Max speed. Hard cap is a bit under a year of BB.
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Mar 16, 2020 12:18
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Cobalt60 posted:Funny story: I just unlocked the 15kQP evilNGU quirk myself, last night. I went on Discord to ask about balancing nNGU E/M vs. eNGU and was hailed as the biggest idiot ever. FWIW you're not the biggest idiot; I had the same confusion when evil mode came out. We are the biggest idiot.
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Mar 16, 2020 13:57
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something posted:I've put my WIP game up in a sort of alpha on kongregate if you guys want to take a poke at it. It's extremely early but feedback on the general concept would be appreciated. The production upgrades that are like +25% production for a tile that produces 1 item, is there any point in purchasing them until you can upgrade them 4 times? I thought I saw a warning about that but it's no longer visible. Feels a bit bad if they do nothing until the 4th.
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Mar 17, 2020 01:59
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xiw posted:The production upgrades that are like +25% production for a tile that produces 1 item, is there any point in purchasing them until you can upgrade them 4 times? I thought I saw a warning about that but it's no longer visible. At the very start no, but once you have beacons unlocked even one upgrade + a beacon could give you +1 production multiplier. I've been reducing research costs a lot lately to get people into the beacon placing portion of the game sooner, so I can some basic feedback on how they feel.
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Mar 17, 2020 03:05
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Does production multipler increase input costs as well as outputs? (Essentially, is it another multiplicative speed option?). That's what it seems to do, unless I'm misremembering what things used to cost. I ask because still needing to dedicate most of your base to raw materials even in the later stages seems like it makes the game hard to scale.
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Mar 17, 2020 03:22
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Jabor posted:Does production multipler increase input costs as well as outputs? (Essentially, is it another multiplicative speed option?). That's what it seems to do, unless I'm misremembering what things used to cost. Yeah, it does. From what I've seen, with people who unlock the 4th tier of items its not that base material heavy (like ore/bar makers), and if it is, production upgrades can be added to smooth out the progression. But of course if you're already feeling otherwise let me know! something fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Mar 17, 2020 |
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Mar 17, 2020 03:27
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It just seems a bit weird that upgrading later machines in a production chain doesn't actually get you anything unless you build more of the machines that feed them (or are upgrading those at the same time). In fact, even though those upgrades are relatively cheap and have big numbers on them, they also don't do very much since you don't have very many of that building anyway. Random feature request: show how many units/second a building produces and consumes in the tooltip.
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Mar 17, 2020 04:03
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well that's sort of the intended mechanics, at some point your bottleneck with either be the raw material, the first stage of refinement, 2nd stage, etc down the recipe chain, and you'll have a bunch of available researches to solve your current production/s problem. At least, some of the testers are telling me they're fine on raw material upgrades are are hankering for more upgrades later in the recipe chains...
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Mar 17, 2020 04:16
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"Each level improves the production of X by 20% per level" I assume one of those "per levels" is unneeded and we don't get exponential growth?
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Mar 17, 2020 04:23
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oh yeah there's bound to be a ton of typos, i mean i did make it after all  It's an additive per level effect, to a multiplicitive stack. so one level is x1.2, then x1.4, x1.6, etc.
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Mar 17, 2020 04:27
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I think the resource per minute view is broken. Other times work though.
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Mar 17, 2020 05:29
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A ctrl-click on a building to fill every space with that building would be nice, also a keybind for clear everything.
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Mar 17, 2020 08:46
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As a casual player I'm finding that there's simultaneously too much reading and not enough information: I rarely understand what's going on, the tooltip information often isn't self-explanatory, and it feels like the flavor text to useful information ratio is too high. Some of the labels are very hard to parse: in the research window, what does "Level: 1/1 (8 max)" mean? "1/1" makes me thinks it's maxed out (e.g. current level 1, max level 1), but "8 max" and an updated research cost implies it can keep going up. This might just be personal taste, but I'm really not a fan of all the tooltips- more information should be available in the icons or labels themselves. It is neat though, it gives off a neat mobile Factorio/production chain vibe right off the bat. Edit: Oh no, research is on a timer. This might be because I'm pretty heavily burned out on NGU (which is rad btw), but I would advise against making every single interaction a bottleneck: if I have to wait to earn the resources to get a thing, then wait to spend that thing, then wait to get the benefits of that thing, my lizard brain recognizes that I'm playing a mobile f2p treadmill and quits. Omi no Kami fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Mar 18, 2020 |
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Mar 18, 2020 02:04
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Omi no Kami posted:As a casual player I'm finding that there's simultaneously too much reading and not enough information: I rarely understand what's going on, the tooltip information often isn't self-explanatory, and it feels like the flavor text to useful information ratio is too high. I don't really see how you would express all the information a building has about it on an object other than a tooltip -you're certainly not cramming more than about 3 characters into each tile's 60x60 pixel space. After playing a bit of the game directly myself I kinda agree about the timers on research - i'm considering doing exactly as you say and just getting rid of the time delay altogether.
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Mar 18, 2020 02:19
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Blattdorf posted:I got 3000 points more in PP progress gain overnight plus a bunch more stuff. I'll probably be hitting diminishing returns pretty hard soon, but this is still a pretty nice improvement. Don't neglect Normal NGUs when you go into Evil. I've found that I've had good success in running evil NGUs for like 6-8 hours at the start of a run, then swapping to normals. You can even disable the ngu diggers and run something else without needing to commit a ton of resources to BB your normal NGUs and can shuffle the extras into blood/augs/TM until it's time to rebirth. The evil multipliers are huge but you make a lot of progress for BB normals over the span of a 12+ hour stretch. Some folks prefer not to mess around with swapping and reallocating mid run and will have separate evil and normal NGU days; it's effectively the same, just a function of your availability and how much you like to fiddle with your runs.
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Mar 18, 2020 03:25
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something posted:I don't really see how you would express all the information a building has about it on an object other than a tooltip -you're certainly not cramming more than about 3 characters into each tile's 60x60 pixel space. I've only tinkered with it for a bit so I don't have a good grasp on what I'll eventually wanna know as a player, but the two pieces of information I most frequently want from buildings are their tickrate, and their logistics dependencies. The latter is optional and I wouldn't worry about it except maybe as a QoL feature, but it'd be nice to see at a glance what my cardboard to glue ration is- I get the feeling that as the game goes on I'll want to get more and more precise about how many thingies I have, and as-is the easiest way to do that feels like doing the math in a spreadsheet, writing down my ideal ratio, then bulldozing everything and building what I planned. It's not really a city building game, so this might just be a crazy blind alley I'm thinking myself down, but I think the core takeaway is that production lines and building things on a map are fun, but 45 minutes of playing left me feeling like I didn't really have the information to explore or tinker with efficiency inside the game itself. For the timers this is something you wanna think your rear end off about, because pinch points/bottlenecks and sense of progression are critical to getting and keeping players. It's not something I know anything about, but offhand I would suggest trying to strike a natural rhythm of near-term goals and payoffs. That's part of why early NGU is so easy to keep playing: you have a quasi-timer in your equipment levels and number, you gradually raise those, then once you push over the top you get to a new area/titan, unlock a new feature/area, and get that quick sense of progress before restarting the loop and/or rebalancing what you've got. I don't know what'll both feel good and keep conversion rates high- just playing a few minutes my natural expectation was that building production chains and grinding resources would be the big thing, and resources gained through that process would instantly convert to new stuff through purchases, but most modern clickers have a ton of interlocking timers and constraints, so I might be too simplistic in my thinking.
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Mar 18, 2020 03:54
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Something I think would be very helpful for NGU Industries - the ability to put a cap on how much of a stockpile you want of a material, that causes your producers to stop producing. I almost went  on how this compares to what happens in factorio, but the short of it is, between the production, speed, and beacons, trying to math out proper ratios for production seems like it's going to be VERY hard, and it might be easier for the player to just experiment instead. Since many intermediates use the same base reagents, if you could put a cap on one or more of the intermediates, you can make sure one intermediate product doesn't accidentally eat more base reagent than it needs. This is becoming especially noticeable in tier 3, where everything is eating computer chips and it's very easy to accidentally have more of some of them than the other. This also should make it easier to determine if a production problem is being caused by having not enough preceding reagent or an improper ratio of parallel intermediates.
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Mar 18, 2020 04:23
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Yeah that's a good point- I played around a bit more after unlocking the first new set of tech (the electronics stuff and blue research), and the process of rebuilding my base and figuring out the supply ratios was immensely frustrating. I feel like I'm half-blind, and since I don't really have the tools or information I need to see how I'm doing, I just kinda barfed some stuff everywhere and walked away. This may not be the kind of game you wanna make, but if you like the supply chain and factorio stuff it might be worth taking a look at how https://www.kongregate.com/games/upturngames/supply-chain-idle does it and giving the player more capacity to very explicitly customize and control how raw resources are getting routed to refineries. Edit: I just thought of something, probably the easiest-to-implement, most useful metric for me right now would be if every resource in the middle column showed its net change/second. Edit to edit: That's already in there, awesome! I had no idea that the View Production thing was an interactable button, or what it did. Omi no Kami fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Mar 18, 2020 |
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Mar 18, 2020 04:48
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Am I correct in thinking that the upgrade that increases the speed of everything doesn't work on stuff that are already showing a cyan speed (eg mines appear to cap out at 300% quickly) It's a bit weird that I have an upgrade (24) to increase the speed of chips that's at 15/20, but as far as i can tell that upgrade will never be worth improving again because the combination of that and faster everything means chips are already at 333% and capped. Unless I'm going to encounter beacons that lower speed in exchange for something later?
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Mar 18, 2020 09:28
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For now cyan is the cap and yeah, no more speed helps. beacons that take from one aspect and give it to another is potentially an option for later, for sure. Any way to make the fact that there's production/net gain trackers in the game more visible? I kinda thought the button would entice players to click it but apparently not :p Musluk had his way with me and now the outer UI looks like this:  (Also, i have indeed removed the timer system from research, and somehow it hasn't seemed to have broken saves so,  )
something fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Mar 18, 2020 |
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Mar 18, 2020 14:41
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It also has a few tweaks for the depth perception on the islands  e:  HMMM...  
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Mar 18, 2020 14:46
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something posted:Any way to make the fact that there's production/net gain trackers in the game more visible? I kinda thought the button would entice players to click it but apparently not :p You could show all three options as separate buttons, and have the currently-selected one highlighted.
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Mar 18, 2020 14:50
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UI space is at a premium as you can see, or else i'd consider that yeah :c
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Mar 18, 2020 14:50
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You'd gain back the space currently occupied by the "view" text. Let me mock something up:  You could do like, a darker grey background instead of the garish yellow border to indicate the current selection, if you really wanted to.
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Mar 18, 2020 14:58
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Hm possiby... I was thinking about the other idea too, to add a limiter to production, and I would probably roll it up into like a 4th view mode where you click the building pods to enter in a limit or something. You've given me some interesting ideas to think about! edit: oh wait, you removed the current selected building part to make that space. RIP edit 2: i need to learn to read the entire post. something fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Mar 18, 2020 |
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Mar 18, 2020 15:01
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Yeah, I figured a highlight that takes up zero space makes more sense than that enormous thing given the pretty minimal amount of information it actually conveys. Especially if you're finding yourself cramped for UI space elsewhere. I guess it is the only spot in the game where the item art is visible in large size though, or maybe you have other reasons to want to keep it.
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Mar 18, 2020 15:05
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I've got something like this now: And with the research time delay thing gone, the research menu looks like this now: 
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Mar 18, 2020 16:36
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Two bugs: 1. When you removed the timer, my research that was in progress got reset with no refund. Oh well. 2. This slider is stuck.  Edit If you're feeling sadistic, make it so the slider starts in the middle, and as soon as you move it to either the extreme right or extreme left, it clicks into place, turns on the adjacent light and is stuck there permanently. Maybe a Sellout shop option to unlock the slider. No other function.
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Mar 18, 2020 18:48
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Two bugs: That sounds like a funny Easter Egg and most people wont try it until they see it in the sellout shop then get mad that it is in fact stuck.
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Mar 18, 2020 18:54
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No "lol"?
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Mar 18, 2020 19:04
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Two bugs: Not sure if you're serious or if i'm whooshing, but that stuff on the edges is just for aesthetic, it's not a real slider.
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Mar 18, 2020 19:10
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something posted:Not sure if you're serious or if i'm whooshing, but that stuff on the edges is just for aesthetic, it's not a real slider. He is saying to make it one and make it a shop purchase.
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Mar 18, 2020 19:17
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something posted:Not sure if you're serious or if i'm whooshing, but that stuff on the edges is just for aesthetic, it's not a real slider. 
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Mar 18, 2020 19:18
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Mar 18, 2020 20:04
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I'm not in a huge rush because I've still got goals to work towards, but I did want to get a quick sanity check on where I'm at in NGU. I'm working my way up to auto-killing Godmother V2 and eventually breaking into the Typo Zonw, but at the beginning of a rebirth I'm not quite at 16 Quintillion power out of 100 needed to start the auto-kill. My base adventure stats are at 31 million each, Energy Adventure NGU is at 74 million normal and 2 million evil, Magic Adventure NGU is at 43.5 million normal and 85 thousand evil, and here's my overall stat breakdown: Does anything seem wildly off, or do I just need to keep steadily plugging away at raising various sources of stats?
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Mar 19, 2020 03:27
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I thought of a few more things for NGU Industries! 1) I noticed some research now has actual jokes, which I may have missed while spamming upgrades, so a way to view all completed research might be cool. 2) None of the tooltips for beacons mention exactly how much they improve their stats, although you probably know this and you're just keeping it blank in case you change it during testing. 3) Maybe the ability to filter research by types of Juice needed by clicking the juice icons? Also, with the changes to the production speed gain/loss screen, I'm not sure capping resources would still be useful. But maybe!
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Mar 20, 2020 01:07
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1) Planned! 2) done and i think in the latest build on kong? It's tiny text though, i'll need to mess with my tooltip system to improve the display. 3) Awesome idea - i think i see how i could do it. Similar system as the building menu, where i keep bright the think juices being searched for and dim if not? probably a negative filter, as in you turn off a specific think juice, and anything that requires it won't show. But a very doable idea for sure!
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Mar 20, 2020 01:20
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For fractional productivity boosts, would it really hurt to just give a hidden fractional resource? Having to get 5 levels of research to see any improvement is a bummer.
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Mar 20, 2020 02:20
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