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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:S31 in deep space 9 was a small and otherwise inconsequential organization that they could have very well been less than 10 people, if not just one guy, operating between the cracks of bureaucracy, who hosed things up by way of very small maneuvers that were designed to maximize their effect. They were not an omnipresent organization that every authority figure was in on, and you were supposed to treat Sloan's claims that they were with at least a little skepticism. They were small group that was subverting the Federations principles out of a misguided sense that HARD MEN needed to make HARD CHOICES, and Bashir's arc in response to them was a rejection of that belief. Good and accurate post.
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Mar 18, 2020 20:56
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:S31 in deep space 9 was a small and otherwise inconsequential organization that they could have very well been less than 10 people, if not just one guy, operating between the cracks of bureaucracy, who hosed things up by way of very small maneuvers that were designed to maximize their effect. They were not an omnipresent organization that every authority figure was in on, and you were supposed to treat Sloan's claims that they were with at least a little skepticism. They were small group that was subverting the Federations principles out of a misguided sense that HARD MEN needed to make HARD CHOICES, and Bashir's arc in response to them was a rejection of that belief. It's been a while since I last watched DS9, but didn't they engineer the virus to kill the founders? Seems like something that would take a lot of resources. Also they had some special advanced tech too right?
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Mar 18, 2020 21:35
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:It's been a while since I last watched DS9, but didn't they engineer the virus to kill the founders? Seems like something that would take a lot of resources. Also they had some special advanced tech too right? One of them converted the water of life from a swig of changeling, and it all went downhill from there
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Mar 18, 2020 22:03
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What does liquid changeling taste like? I’m going with Irn Bru
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Mar 18, 2020 22:33
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IGN just posted a preview of tonight/tomorrow's episode. Obvious spoilers. Looks like we're getting the gang back together just in time for the finale.
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Mar 18, 2020 23:15
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skasion posted:What does liquid changeling taste like? I’m going with Irn Bru Tastes like kanar that was bottled and shipped a little too early.
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Mar 18, 2020 23:19
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skasion posted:What does liquid changeling taste like? I’m going with Irn Bru Have a sip 
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Mar 18, 2020 23:28
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I've come to see that Section 31's history goes sorta like this Enterprise era Small intelligence organization, secret but operating within the intelligence community. Handles stuff that the regular security doesn't want to touch, focuses on internal issues. Sloan's constant assertion that "its in the Federation Charter" is probably something vague like "The Federation may maintain a intelligence service intended to protect it from internal threats" and that gets taken and twisted. Disco Era Has grown to be its own branch of Starfleet Intelligence. Operates with impunity, as it has cultivated an image among Federation leaders that it is necessary, and that it is the only thing truely holding back the darkness. There are a million knives out and only Section 31 has the resolve to blunt their attacks. It is probably even seen as the primary intelligence organization, with Starfleet Intelligence being seen as more about keeping hands out of the cookie jar. The Disaster of Control made Starfleet rethinking giving a intelligence service unlimited power without oversight is a bad idea, and officially dissolves Section 31 and reabsorbs its opratives. But there are some that think that no, even though Section 31 almost ended all life in the Galaxy, we still need them because in a galaxy of Romulans, Klingons, Gorn and Tholians, and not to mention people who let their good and naiive natures bring ruin to everything, we must have watchers on the wall. Because of this, section 31 goes undergound. It's not unlike Hydra in SHIELD in Winter Soldier, its a cancerous spider in a web pulling the threads behind the scenes, but only true believers know of its existence. It falls into rumor and history. TOS and TNG Nothing Ds9 The war with the Dominion forces them to stop simply acting behind the scenes, quietly in the shadows. They need to go out and recruit people like Bashir to expand their operations. It's probably Sloan and a few goons that are members of Section 31, but has silent allies all over the place, and assets that can be activated whenever needed. The death of Sloan probably ended Section 31. It's secrets lost, and leaderless the cells and assets become dormant to a point they no longer have any power. Though with Picard who knows?
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Mar 19, 2020 00:19
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Section 31 is basically Cerberus from Mass Effect. It was officially sanctioned by the Federation/United Earth at one point, got kicked the gently caress out and disavowed after it went rogue, and now is as vast/powerful/wealthy as it needs to be depending on the writer and the story. It even has its own Illusive Man analog in every era: Harris, Marcus, Georgiou, Sloan, etc. nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Mar 19, 2020 |
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Mar 19, 2020 00:25
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In Disco they gave unlimited intelligence service power to a Klingon and a card-carrying villain. Disco really just isn't canon and we shouldn't try to pretend it is. Mushroom drive. MUSHROOM DRIVE
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Mar 19, 2020 00:30
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The problem with Section 31 as introduced in DS9 is that they make too much sense as a full blown integral bit of Starfleet. The joke of TNG is that Starfleet Intelligence is horribly wrong about everything all the time. So how does the Federation get by? Well DS9's answer is that behind the clowns in Starfleet Intelligence is an organisation that so tightly has its poo poo together that it can insert an agent into the Romulan Senate and create a bioweapon that the most powerful empire in the Gamma quadrant is helpless against.
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Mar 19, 2020 00:32
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:It's been a while since I last watched DS9, but didn't they engineer the virus to kill the founders? Seems like something that would take a lot of resources. Also they had some special advanced tech too right? They not only created a bioweapon capable of wiping out the Founders, they also personally placed an S31 operative into the Romulan Senate, and they operate under the tacit approval of Starfleet Command. The whole "Section 31 weren't actually anything at all, maybe it was even just one guy pretending he was more important than he really was" idea is not only a enormous reach, it's one not supported by the text.
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Mar 19, 2020 00:33
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Made some teriyaki udon stir fry, did some laundry, am playing CoD Warzone all night until the new episode of Pickerd.
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Mar 19, 2020 01:10
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nine-gear crow posted:IGN just posted a preview of tonight/tomorrow's episode. Obvious spoilers. That had better not be all there is about Hugh's death. Eight seconds of misleading dialog by Picard before he gets distracted by xBs working on a battery? If they were intent on getting the gang together, why not include Hugh?
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Mar 19, 2020 03:20
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Alchenar posted:The problem with Section 31 as introduced in DS9 is that they make too much sense as a full blown integral bit of Starfleet. The joke of TNG is that Starfleet Intelligence is horribly wrong about everything all the time. So how does the Federation get by? Well DS9's answer is that behind the clowns in Starfleet Intelligence is an organisation that so tightly has its poo poo together that it can insert an agent into the Romulan Senate and create a bioweapon that the most powerful empire in the Gamma quadrant is helpless against. Which makes a mockery of everyone who thinks new trek is too dark. Since DS9 infers that the federation can't actually exist without tyrants running things behind the scenes. Tyrants it claims it is beyond.
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Mar 19, 2020 03:35
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Yeah, the original depiction of S31 is absolutely that hard choices by hard men enacted unilaterally are required for the good of the people. It's fash poo poo that has no place in Trek.
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Mar 19, 2020 03:37
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Sloan is a bad guy. He tried to commit genocide and it didn't even alter the outcome of the war, since the Prophets closed the wormhole. I guess you could argue that it made a peace treaty come sooner but the Dominion did not actually agree to terms until Cardassia was a cinder.
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Mar 19, 2020 03:54
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Arglebargle III posted:Mushroom drive. Obviously King Koopa was elected president of the Federation in the 2260s and purged all fungal drives from memory
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Mar 19, 2020 04:21
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Arglebargle III posted:In Disco they gave unlimited intelligence service power to a Klingon and a card-carrying villain. Disco really just isn't canon and we shouldn't try to pretend it is. Spore Drive is the coolest thing to come from Disco and maybe all of Trek.
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Mar 19, 2020 04:23
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Regarde Aduck posted:Which makes a mockery of everyone who thinks new trek is too dark. Since DS9 infers that the federation can't actually exist without tyrants running things behind the scenes. Tyrants it claims it is beyond. Agreed. Assuming you take Sloan at his word (and he wasn't just trying to give his rogue operation an air of legitimacy) then s31 was an irredeemable addition. Later entries could have retconned or diminished this, but instead went all in because finally they had an outlet for cheap CIA poo poo in Star Trek, and to me that's even worse. Get that fash poo poo out of here, you've got literally every other show on TV to "explore" it in. The Weddle/Thompson partnership brought us the two worst plot threads (s31 and the par-wraiths) late in season 6, and the two expanded on them in season 7. I still believe season 6 was meant to have the big end of the dominion war after the prophets story ended in Sacrifice of Angels, but they got another season and spun it out with the good and evil demons and Sisko being the chosen one garbage - but that's just my pet theory. All that aside, DS9 was always "dark", and it was intentionally so. The whole point of the show was testing Federation ideals under a ratcheting up of pressure. I think "too dark" often gets used when folks can't quite articulate what's wrong with the writing in modern shows and films. It's always conflict arising from contrived plots and characters that don't use their conflict to comment on anything bigger than itself. An episode where Worf asks Riker to assist in his suicide is really about respecting vs participating in culture incompatible with your own and the ethics of using vulnerable patients to further medical advances (even those that may benefit them) vs the best chance for quality of life improvement. Was it subtle? Not in the slightest. It was extremely clear because it had things it wanted to communicate to an audience of any age. A suicide attempt in modern Trek would be very dramatic, and the actors would give it their all, but it'd likely focus entirely on its impact to character and plot. The drama becomes the point. Which is fine, but it's not quite what people expect from the franchise at its best. Yes you get purely character developing episodes, but generally interpersonal conflict served a wider point. You start getting more of it in Voyager (Enterprise I can't comment on, haven't seen it) and by Discovery/Picard it's become the new norm. And if it's also so contrived that you can see the writer pulling the strings, then people will roll their eyes and find a phrase to dismiss it as not Trek. In Star Trek there is no subject matter that is "too dark", it's how it's handled and what point it is being used to make. Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Mar 19, 2020 |
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Mar 19, 2020 05:14
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Yeah, the original depiction of S31 is absolutely that hard choices by hard men enacted unilaterally are required for the good of the people. It's fash poo poo that has no place in Trek. That's not true at all. They are literally the villain and shown to be wrong.
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Mar 19, 2020 05:22
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socialsecurity posted:That's not true at all. They are literally the villain and shown to be wrong. The point is that if Sloan is telling the truth (which I'll concede there was room to suggest that he wasn't before later entries went all in) then the implication is that the Federation hasn't survived this long without their mechinations. It robs the Federation of its accomplishments if there's always been a secret organisation pre-chewing the tougher meat for them.
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Mar 19, 2020 05:26
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Lizard Combatant posted:The point is that if Sloan is telling the truth (which I'll concede there was room to suggest that he wasn't before later entries went all in) then the implication is that the Federation hasn't survived this long without their mechinations. It robs the Federation of its accomplishments if there's always been a secret organisation pre-chewing the tougher meat for them. What does he say Section 31 actually accomplished in their first episode?
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Mar 19, 2020 05:28
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Khanstant posted:Spore Drive is the coolest thing to come from Disco and maybe all of Trek. It reminded me of  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxy_filament at a superficial level
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Mar 19, 2020 05:29
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socialsecurity posted:What does he say Section 31 actually accomplished in their first episode? Nothing specific (hence the possibly that he's full of poo poo and trying to start his own thing) but he states that they covertly eliminate potential threats by any means necessary. The end of the episode really tanks it by implying that the organisation does in fact exist by Starleet's non answer.
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Mar 19, 2020 05:37
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I might buy the “Sloan is full of poo poo” interpretation if his next appearance, “Inter Arma Enim Silence Leges” doesn't show him being just as effective as he claims. It's an entire episode about how Naive Idealist Bashir is a useful idiot for the guy who's really making a difference for the Federation, and that for all his protests, that's just how the system works. (And, of course, DS9 also decided to set up it's mirror universe with the idea that the brutality of the Terran Empire was necessary to ensure its survival, and Spock's liberal reforms just doomed humanity. You keep doing that story, it's hard to claim you're just kidding.)
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Mar 19, 2020 05:54
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Yup. They couldn't resist. It's funny that Disco even bothered with s31 since their Starfleet cooked up a plan to blow up a planet on its own and put space Hitler in charge. Really took the wind out of section 31s sails there (who apparently have a fleet of the super best ships, loving lol)
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Mar 19, 2020 06:01
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galenanorth posted:It reminded me of That's a big part of why I like it. A lot of things in nature follow really simple patterns that repeat and build on each other to make all the complex things from tiny scales to imperceivable vast ones. If there's going to be extra dimensional lifeforms out there, I can totally buy some sort of cosmic ecology to go along with it. Hell, I kind of need it. Some species transcends their physical body, okay, yeah, but what do they eat? Where do they poo poo? What decomposes their cosmic turds, huh?
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Mar 19, 2020 06:19
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I thought the whole point of Section 31 in DS9 was to show how easily fascism can infect democratic societies when they succumb to paranoia. There will always be people who think that they know better than everyone else, and they appoint themselves the protector of those who are too stupid and liberal to protect themselves from the dangers out there. Its funny how that kind of stuff would be all over the place in fiction a few years later. Lots of sci fi did thinly veiled analogs for Bush era style conservatives who thought anyone left of LaRouche was going to lead the country into being taken over by Muslims with their tolerance and not supporting genocide.
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Mar 19, 2020 06:45
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Angry Salami posted:(And, of course, DS9 also decided to set up it's mirror universe with the idea that the brutality of the Terran Empire was necessary to ensure its survival, and Spock's liberal reforms just doomed humanity. You keep doing that story, it's hard to claim you're just kidding.) The Terrans enslaved and brutalized a chunk of the galaxy for a few centuries, then went peaceful and were all 'Okay, we good now?'. Of course they fell, that is basic logic, all of the oppressed didn't suddenly forget.
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Mar 19, 2020 07:41
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Picard episode 9: Flower defense system owns. Borg cube to the rescue! Oh no it's been disabled by 4 giant space flowers! I did like the reveal that the admonishing wasn't for organics, but synthetics. "Call us so we can escort you to the rest of the cool robot lifeforms so the dumb meatbags don't hunt you down because we are going to burn the entire galaxy." Whoops turns out the Romulans are accidentally correct because the synths will activate a beacon to call the super synths which will lead to the death of everything.
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Mar 19, 2020 07:59
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Altan Inigo Soong Alter Ego Soong That fucker is Lore.
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Mar 19, 2020 08:20
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Hey can someone give me a synonym for Arcana
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Mar 19, 2020 08:21
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J33uk posted:Hey can someone give me a synonym for Arcana 
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Mar 19, 2020 08:35
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Lmao This was the most Star Trek thing that’s been on TV since TNG. Weird old man and his sexy androids living in slightly color shifted not-California utopia. This owned. Gene would be proud.
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Mar 19, 2020 09:24
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 i swear to fuckin god if the super advanced synths are control from discovery 
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Mar 19, 2020 09:56
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Fuckin robot sex commune. Also I see we’re back to weirdly paced episodes with blueball plot development. Oh well, it all wraps up next week so hopefully the end the season on a real banger. The first ten minutes in space was an absolute blast. Also three cheers for continuing the tradition from Enterprise of pulling new Soongs out of thin air and having them be assholes so that Brent Spiner can flex is acting muscles. E: I think Jurati is playing Alton and is gonna screw him over by using the golem body to bring Data back instead of swapping Alton into it. nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 10:03 on Mar 19, 2020 |
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Mar 19, 2020 10:00
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nine-gear crow posted:Fuckin robot sex commune. I'm 99% sure that Alton is Lore, but this makes sense, too.
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Mar 19, 2020 10:32
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twistedmentat posted:I thought the whole point of Section 31 in DS9 was to show how easily fascism can infect democratic societies when they succumb to paranoia. There will always be people who think that they know better than everyone else, and they appoint themselves the protector of those who are too stupid and liberal to protect themselves from the dangers out there. Its funny how that kind of stuff would be all over the place in fiction a few years later. Lots of sci fi did thinly veiled analogs for Bush era style conservatives who thought anyone left of LaRouche was going to lead the country into being taken over by Muslims with their tolerance and not supporting genocide. It is, but as written in the text Section 31 isn't something the emerges out of the requirements of the Dominion War (I think that would be fine and create a Picard-esque dilemma for the cast over how far they are willing to compromise their ideals), it's something the Federation has always been. I'm also pretty sure that the writers kept Kira well away from any episode including S31 because her character would absolutely think they're great and necessary (other than for killing Odo). S31 is presented as evil from the perspective of our protagonists, but the two plans they have that we are made aware of in DS9 are wildly successful. They do manage to sneak an operative into the Senate of the Romulan Empire (everything Trek has said about the Romulans says that's the hardest thing ever). They do manage to create a bioweapon against the Founders that the Dominion can't cure (that's even more impressive given that bioweapons and genetic manipulation/cloning are things the Dominion do particularly well), and they manage to arrange a successful infection of the Founder homeworld. DS9 doesn't say that S31 is evil and screwing things up, it's says they're evil and they get poo poo done that people like Picard couldn't face dirtying their hands with. The show also puts Sisko on shifty ground trying to oppose them, given a) In the Pale Moonlight, and b) he authorises the illegal mind probes Bashir uses to condemn Sloane. If you assume that all of Trek is well written and meticulously consistent (it is not), then I think the only tenable conclusion is that it's only the exploration wing of Starfleet that holds the ideals we see in our protagonists, while back home the Federation works pretty much as politics does now except everyone is clearly on board with a domestic agenda of fully automated luxury communism.
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Mar 19, 2020 11:12
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One thing fiction consistently gets wrong is how competent all the spies are. Meanwhile the real life CIA is a loving dumpster fire in hell.
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Mar 19, 2020 12:36
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