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The Democrats suck, as do the Republicans. But it is loving pathetic that the Republicans are winning the messaging war during what should be a slam dunk for the Democrats. "Help the poor, gently caress rich people who can absorb the shock", bam, done, easy peasy. But no we've got to hand wring over means testing and earned income tax credits. It's loving pathetic that the Democrats can't put together a real solution that would actually help people, and have failed so utterly that Trump's plan of "we'll give you a grand once, I guess, that'll solve this right?" actually looks better to the average person. e. Here's my cat: 
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Mar 19, 2020 04:38
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Sydin posted:The Democrats suck, as do the Republicans. But it is loving pathetic that the Republicans are winning the messaging war during what should be a slam dunk for the Democrats. "Help the poor, gently caress rich people who can absorb the shock", bam, done, easy peasy. But no we've got to hand wring over means testing and earned income tax credits. It's loving pathetic that the Democrats can't put together a real solution that would actually help people, and have failed so utterly that Trump's plan of "we'll give you a grand once, I guess, that'll solve this right?" actually looks better to the average person. BUT I FEEL SMART when we means test, isn't that the most important!?
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Mar 19, 2020 04:39
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Lemming posted:That's where my goal posts have been from the start! That's explicitly the angle I've been arguing from for this entire conversation! They successfully won the messaging war last week, about guaranteed sick leave for people amidst other things, and it ended up with the House legislation getting passed by the Senate this week! They did a pretty good job on that! It worked, and they got credit for pushing a good thing forward! Clearly Republicans have won the messaging war among uninformed "leftists" who aren't going to vote It'll unfortunately be a kindness to close this thread. It looks like Bernie is going to concede tomorrow in the face of either that or losing/giving primary voters coronavirus, barring a revolutionary change to primary rules. Certain people on the left have a problem with trying to emulate Trumpism as their winning strategy. We saw this is in the totally unrealistic and cynical expectation that Bernie would ride a divided primary to victory. We see it in calls to embrace Republican messaging strategy. We see it in leftists eating up Fox News and Friends as the new revolutionary vanguard if they can string together a socialist bingo amid Trump's amorphous doublethink messaging. Predictably, the rest of the voters are not on board.
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Mar 19, 2020 04:46
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Clearly Republicans have won the messaging war among uninformed "leftists" who aren't going to vote The suburbs will come out for Trump and you will still be left holding Pelosi’s dialysis bag.
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Mar 19, 2020 04:47
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Clearly Republicans have won the messaging war among uninformed "leftists" who aren't going to vote what is Trumpism
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Mar 19, 2020 04:47
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Clearly Republicans have won the messaging war among uninformed "leftists" who aren't going to vote lol you've yet to actually make an argument right? You've just told people they're wrong by intentionally twisting what they've said, and when they try to correct you  about how they're moving goalposts. Take a break from the internet for a bit.
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Mar 19, 2020 04:50
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Clearly Republicans have won the messaging war among uninformed "leftists" who aren't going to vote https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1240013057721597953?s=20 Headlines from Google news yesterday (in an incognito, to remove as much of the personalization as possible):  Yes they were winning the messaging war on this topic. This is how things were getting reported in a widespread way. This is different from how last week, the headlines were about how Democrats were trying to expand guaranteed sick leave for workers and they were fighting with Republicans over getting it done. Saying that we need to be realistic about how things play out in the public consciousness among poorly informed people is pretty eminently reasonable. I really don't know why you have to defend the mistakes the Democrats are making. Like it's really straightforward, the Democrats did a bad job this week, they did a better job last week, they shouldn't have flubbed this issue as bad as they did.
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Mar 19, 2020 04:51
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As pointed out in the main discussion thread, "apparently" is doing a shitload of work here. When one goes looking for the Republican plan one comes back empty-handed. There's certainly a lot of words. Democrats can't prevent Trump from lying at the bully pulpit.
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Mar 19, 2020 04:56
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Like yeah extremely online people and party hardliners aren't going to defect to Trump regardless of messaging snafus. But to your average working class voter who's only somewhat plugged into politics they're currently facing down the specter of being laid off or having their hours cut to zero, while they're expected to still pay their bills, pay their rent, and potentially now take care of any kids they have who are suddenly not in school. The GOP is saying "we'll front you some cash", and the Dems are saying "no we can't front you any cash." You can scream from the rooftops all day about inflation, or how direct subsidies are bad monetary policy and not true redistribution of wealth, and how a one time payment of $1K isn't enough (and to be fair it's not) but that DOESN'T loving MATTER. One side is offering people in desperate straits a lifeline, even a very meager one. The other side is saying that they can't offer a lifeline because the economy is most important. Gee, I wonder which side will engender loyalty and votes come the general election among the working class???
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Mar 19, 2020 04:57
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https://twitter.com/neeratanden/status/1240479976283164681?s=21 Can you imagine writing out the same argument as Neera Tanden? God can you imagine how embarrassed you’d be, holy poo poo.
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Mar 19, 2020 05:05
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God drat that is some fantastic writing. I honestly couldn't state it better myself.
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Mar 19, 2020 05:06
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Sodomy Hussein posted:As pointed out in the main discussion thread, "apparently" is doing a shitload of work here. OH MY GOD NO poo poo THE REPUBLICANS ARE LYING REAALLLLYYY!?!??!?! WOWOW THANKS FOR LETTING ME KNOW! Jesus does anyone read before they post? No poo poo Trump and every Republican are lying. They lie about everything. I literally just gave an example about how Democrats aren't completely powerless in the face of Trump standing like a dipshit and making random things up on the spot; they LITERALLY WON the messaging battle on expanding sick leave last week, and that's because they quickly outlined a plan, unified behind it, and then forced the Republicans to be the ones who were fighting back against it, and the Republicans were forced to roll over and pass it this week. The Democrats can fight back. The entire criticism is that on this topic, giving cash to people who need it, the Democrats lost that battle. They didn't have a plan and they had no unity. This gave space for Trump to lie and then a bunch of low information people who just see the headlines and catch snippets on TV to come away with the false idea that Trump was gonna give a bunch of people money. Jesus christ.
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Mar 19, 2020 05:08
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rko posted:https://twitter.com/neeratanden/status/1240479976283164681?s=21 Literally who the gently caress thought or told anyone that Trump was for single payer lol
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Mar 19, 2020 05:10
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https://twitter.com/brianthehuman/status/1240483168362225665
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Mar 19, 2020 05:12
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Streak posted:Literally who the gently caress thought or told anyone that Trump was for single payer lol 2015 was a strange year. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/sep/11/reid-ribble/donald-trump-wants-replace-obamacare-single-payer-/
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Mar 19, 2020 05:15
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Lemming posted:OH MY GOD NO poo poo THE REPUBLICANS ARE LYING REAALLLLYYY!?!??!?! WOWOW THANKS FOR LETTING ME KNOW! Ah yes the very existent cut-everyone-a-check plan that is extremely happening and we're convinced is to the left of Democrats despite being every bit of a one-time Bush era tax cut (provided it even happens), back to this. Whereas the succdems have some sort of "plan" that actually exists and better addresses the problem, omg lol who's going to vote for that? Not me. I'm on the left, pay attention to meeeee
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Mar 19, 2020 05:15
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Ah yes the very existent cut-everyone-a-check plan that is extremely happening and we're convinced is to the left of Democrats despite being every bit of a one-time Bush era tax cut (provided it even happens), back to this. Whereas the succdems have some sort of "plan" that actually exists and better addresses the problem, omg lol who's going to vote for that? Not me. I'm on the left, pay attention to meeeee Jesus the person who bought you that really was spot on.
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Mar 19, 2020 05:17
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Ah yes the very existent cut-everyone-a-check plan that is extremely happening and we're convinced is to the left of Democrats despite being every bit of a one-time Bush era tax cut (provided it even happens), back to this. Whereas the succdems have some sort of "plan" that actually exists and better addresses the problem, omg lol who's going to vote for that? Not me. I'm on the left, pay attention to meeeee How on earth did you read that post and come away with the conclusion that I think the Republican plan is real and happening? Is the part where I said "No poo poo Trump and every Republican are lying. They lie about everything"? Was it the part where I said "This gave space for Trump to lie and then a bunch of low information people who just see the headlines and catch snippets on TV to come away with the false idea that Trump was gonna give a bunch of people money."? Please explain it to me, the only conclusion I can come to is that you didn't read a loving word I said and just got excited about what you assumed I said, but surely you wouldn't do that
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Mar 19, 2020 05:18
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turnip kid posted:You’re betting on a party with guys like Rand Paul and Ted Cruz allowing any of this poo poo. Cmon. I could see them doing it at least temporarily so that they could then tear it down after having successfully destroyed the democratic party forever by stealing their signature accomplishments, making them fight against them, and then instituting them as the DNC tried to stop them. Though, they'll probably find a much more evil way to do the same thing.
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Mar 19, 2020 05:18
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Propaganda Hour posted:2015 was a strange year. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/sep/11/reid-ribble/donald-trump-wants-replace-obamacare-single-payer-/ quote:Trump continues to praise single payer -- a health care system in which the government pays for care for all citizens -- at least as it used in other countries. But he has spoken a number of times, if vaguely, about a private system and at one point said he does not support single payer in the United States. Since then, his responses have been less clear.  If the dems don't want to get outflanked "from the left" by Trump on this relief plan & they believe he's bluffing maybe they should call his bluff instead of going "ummmm well we can't just GIVE people money, what are you crazy?"
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Mar 19, 2020 05:18
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Ah yes the very existent cut-everyone-a-check plan that is extremely happening and we're convinced is to the left of Democrats despite being every bit of a one-time Bush era tax cut (provided it even happens), back to this. Whereas the succdems have some sort of "plan" that actually exists and better addresses the problem, omg lol who's going to vote for that? Not me. I'm on the left, pay attention to meeeee "Yes the Republicans are lying but it doesn't matter because their lies are better than what the Democrats are saying and voters will believe the good lie. Dems should work to counter this." "Aha! I see you admit you actually think the Republicans have a better plan! Curious."  
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Mar 19, 2020 05:20
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Ah yes the very existent cut-everyone-a-check plan that is extremely happening and we're convinced is to the left of Democrats despite being every bit of a one-time Bush era tax cut (provided it even happens), back to this. Whereas the succdems have some sort of "plan" that actually exists and better addresses the problem, omg lol who's going to vote for that? Not me. I'm on the left, pay attention to meeeee So drat Insane heyoooo
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Mar 19, 2020 05:21
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You should read the rest of the page. Trump took multiple positions for and against single player prior to and throughout his campaign. His entire campaign was based on telling different people contradictory information.
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Mar 19, 2020 05:21
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Propaganda Hour posted:You should read the rest of the page. Trump took multiple positions for and against single player prior to and throughout his campaign. His entire campaign was based on telling different people contradictory information. yes i understand that how many people seriously believed he was going to implement a single payer healthcare system in the united states?
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Mar 19, 2020 05:23
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Tomorrow Trump promises a million dollars for everyone. Thread goes insane now that Lyin' Chuck Schumer has been outflanked on his left by universal billionaire income. The Democrats, constrained by the shackles of reality and their better policy proposals, are hapless to defeat the revolutionary vanguard of people who do not know poo poo about anything.
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Mar 19, 2020 05:26
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The "mail checks to everyone" thing seems a bit different from Trump historically having different stances on NHS prior to his presidency. Importantly, the latter was in a "he may or may not try to do this and even if he does it may or may not happen x years into the future", giving everyone 1k during the pandemic though is sort of a "well does it happen or doesn't it happen right now" question, not something people will be arguing over in nov leading to the general election. Really it's not comparable at all. Either it happens within the next month or so, or it doesn't happen. No real need to debate about intentions.
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Mar 19, 2020 05:27
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Propaganda Hour posted:You should read the rest of the page. Trump took multiple positions for and against single player prior to and throughout his campaign. His entire campaign was based on telling different people contradictory information. Rather, his entire campaign was based on playing to the crowd. Wherever he was he said whatever he thought would please whoever he was speaking to. Old whites? Racism! Union workers? The jobs will come back! Poor neighborhoods? UHC! He said whatever he thought would be popular in the moment to moment, and when his contradictory positions were pointed out he brushed it off and cried about how the corrupt media was trying to slander him, and people ate it up.
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Mar 19, 2020 05:27
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Clearly Republicans have won the messaging war among uninformed "leftists" who aren't going to vote Every freshly laid off working class restaurant, retail, and hospitality person I know saw Trump/Mnuchin's announcement of "getting cash to people who need it" and said "drat, he's actually doing something good for once, right on!" and then proceeded to not watch C-Span to buff up on the dems' superior plan.
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Mar 19, 2020 05:28
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Tomorrow Trump promises a million dollars for everyone. Thread goes insane now that Lyin' Chuck Schumer has been outflanked on his left by universal billionaire income. Do you want to address the point that you're so loving stupid you literally responded to my post where I said "Trump and every single Republican are lying" with an accusation that I thought their proposal was real and not a lie?
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Mar 19, 2020 05:28
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Tomorrow Trump promises a million dollars for everyone. Thread goes insane now that Lyin' Chuck Schumer has been outflanked on his left by universal billionaire income. Nancy Pelosi immediately agrees with the plan but proposes several different ways of means-testing it and honestly does not understand why people are getting mad at her
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Mar 19, 2020 05:29
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I mean, GWB cut everyone a check in
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Mar 19, 2020 05:30
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I’d like to go back to not thinking about this stuff. I wish that was possible.
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Mar 19, 2020 05:32
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spouse posted:Every freshly laid off working class restaurant, retail, and hospitality person I know saw Trump/Mnuchin's announcement of "getting cash to people who need it" and said "drat, he's actually doing something good for once, right on!" and then proceeded to not watch C-Span to buff up on the dems' superior plan. Seriously, this. Your average working class voter is not all that plugged into politics. Hell even if they wanted to be it's kind of hard when you're working two jobs - one of which just cut your hours to zero and told you to stay home for the next month - and have two young kids suddenly out of school you don't know what to do with because both you and your SO need to work. Only the surface level details filter through, and what they're hearing is "The WH wants to front people cash to get through the pandemic, and the Dems are trying to block it for complicated reasons." Even if the WH promises are lies it doesn't matter: Dems are already being painted as the bad guys. It's easy to smugly lay back and say "yeah well the GOP always lies so I know they're full of poo poo" when you don't actually need the money they're promising you. When you're on the margins and that money could be the difference between a home and no home, between your kids eating and your kids starving, between literal life and death, even if you think it's a lie it doesn't matter: the slim chance at relief is more valuable than the person going "well sorry we can't realistically offer you any relief, at least not in the short term."
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Mar 19, 2020 05:32
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if you're going to get upset when people "fall for republican messaging" then maybe you should listen when many many people are complaining that the dems are absolutely terrible at messaging and that's largely why they lose elections
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Mar 19, 2020 05:34
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spouse posted:Every freshly laid off working class restaurant, retail, and hospitality person I know saw Trump/Mnuchin's announcement of "getting cash to people who need it" and said "drat, he's actually doing something good for once, right on!" and then proceeded to not watch C-Span to buff up on the dems' superior plan. I wonder how that's going to pan out when they either don't get it on the face of no congressional support or it turns out to be like $200 and a $15 off coupon at Arby's. Eh, better to scream now about the Messaging War. Telling my under-informed friends what's actually going on is other peoples' responsibility.
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Mar 19, 2020 05:36
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Sodomy Hussein posted:I wonder how that's going to pan out when they either don't get it on the face of no congressional support or it turns out to be like $200 and a $15 off coupon at Arby's. Eh, better to scream now about the Messaging War. Telling my under-informed friends what's actually going on is other peoples' responsibility. wow, what are the democrats going to do for him?
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Mar 19, 2020 05:39
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Sodomy Hussein posted:I wonder how that's going to pan out when they either don't get it on the face of no congressional support or it turns out to be like $200 and a $15 off coupon at Arby's. Eh, better to scream now about the Messaging War. Telling my under-informed friends what's actually going on is other peoples' responsibility. Before we move on to whatever other stupid point you want to deflect to can we address the fact that you cannot read
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Mar 19, 2020 05:41
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Sodomy Hussein posted:I wonder how that's going to pan out when they either don't get it on the face of no congressional support or it turns out to be like $200 and a $15 off coupon at Arby's. Eh, better to scream now about the Messaging War. Telling my under-informed friends what's actually going on is other peoples' responsibility. Every dem should be screaming as loud as possible as often as possible that they want to send people checks. This is very simple to do and understand. They haven't been doing that. Thus, they have hosed up. This is not complicated.
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Mar 19, 2020 05:41
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The Democrats were handed a slam dunk and all they had to do was come out and propose the works. Rent and Mortgage freezes. Banks can't collect interest on loans until the pandemic subsides. No evictions. Substantial cash handouts to households under a certain annual income threshold. Free testing AND treatment for COVID-19 even for the uninsured. Massive money towards getting homeless off the streets, tested, and taken care of. If they had done these things, the GOP would have had two options: 1. Wring their hands about the economic impact of these things, which would have put the Democrats squarely in the "we actually want to do something about this" camp, endearing them to those most hard hit by this crisis. 2. Cave to some or all of these policies in order to avoid looking like the ones who are throwing people to the wolves during a crisis. In which case, we actually end up helping people! And the Dems could take credit for that in an election year! But no they're so far up their own asses on means testing and the economy and neo-liberal bullshit that they can't even lie and say "yes we'll make huge sweeping leftist changes to help people in a crisis" knowing the GOP will balk and it will earn the Dems massive brownie points in a loving Presidential election year. "Never waste a good crisis" is a political truism and the Dems let an opportunity to rake in huge segments of the electorate that voted for Trump in 2016 just blow on by them. The party is completely and unequivocally hosed.
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Mar 19, 2020 05:42
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Sodomy Hussein posted:I wonder how that's going to pan out when they either don't get it on the face of no congressional support or it turns out to be like $200 and a $15 off coupon at Arby's. Eh, better to scream now about the Messaging War. Telling my under-informed friends what's actually going on is other peoples' responsibility. What's going on is you have a death cult and a party of losers so inept they can't wash their hands without means testing the soap. One of those in their thrashing moments said something that could sound like help and instead of seizing on it and going "that's not enough we will need more" and the the GOP balks, they instead said "goodness, handing the dregs of society cash, we can't do that!" and look like the ghouls they are. You can wank yourself off about how you have plans and methods and why won't you stupid peasants just listen, but turns out material need is important and your pathetic pissbraining gets you nowhere. E:He's going to reply only to sharkie, only talk about peasants and money is bad, and pat himself on his big boy brain back. StealthArcher fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Mar 19, 2020 |
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Mar 19, 2020 05:45
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