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how is Biden tangibly better for the working class than Trump? I know, they're both horrible, but seriously, why should Biden deserve to win? Why should he not lose all 50 states? Sure, the GOP are fascists, but do you really think purestrain neoliberalism is any viable alternative, and do you really think the working class will be guilt tripped into voting for that when its biggest representative (Biden) is so loving horrible?
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Mar 18, 2020 10:24
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There are no arguments that Biden is a worthy candidate who deserves your vote; it's entirely based on fear of the Republicans.
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Mar 18, 2020 14:32
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It's essentially a hostage situation. The ruling class says you must vote for the senile conservative dipshit who won't inconvenience them, or they'll let loose the other senile conservative dipshit who won't inconvenience them. You plebes better fall in line or you're enabling the one we've told you is worse.
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Mar 18, 2020 14:42
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Venomous posted:how is Biden tangibly better for the working class than Trump? Biden's probably not going to hold rallies encouraging his supporters to shoot minorities and bomb synagogues. That's pretty much it I think.
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Mar 18, 2020 14:49
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Phone posted:Voting for Biden in November is useless because he’ll be impeached and removed from office within 3 weeks of being sworn in. Why would a Democratic house impeach Biden? If Biden wins, the house remains democratic.
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Mar 18, 2020 14:56
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Right. Impeachment doesn’t happen until Dems lose the House in 2020.
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Mar 18, 2020 14:59
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Our situation is so ridiculous. It's completely absurd. We have maybe until April when the rent comes due for every newly unemployed and quarantined American before society as we know it evaporates. The Republicans have no plan and Democrats... somehow... have even less. Why am I supposed to get invested, support, or even care which party's necrophiliac dotard cannibal gets to gently caress and eat my corpse?
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Mar 18, 2020 15:13
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this clip is from last year, and it still holds completely true today https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwSDszG_HXE e: 'Biden has the following problem: he polls incredibly well amongst Republicans in suburban areas who hate Trump. We just don't know how many there are, and they're not that motivated to vote for Biden as much as Trump supporters are to vote for Trump.' Venomous fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Mar 18, 2020 |
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Mar 18, 2020 17:02
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Its time to stop the neoliberalism while we can.
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Mar 18, 2020 19:45
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Prester Jane posted:Wrong. You clearly prefer the preservation of your comfortable status quo and you're prepared to sacrifice as many minorities as it takes to keep you comfortable. I'm genuinely not following this logic. Whether it's Trump or Biden generally privileged people are going to be doing somewhere from fine to great. If the choice is "person who has a chance of fixing things for the oppressed and forgotten" or "person who explicitly states that they want to oppress those people more" I feel like it's a shoe in, even if it sucks. I wish to hell Bernie or Warren had made it but they didn't, which leads me to believe that some mass socialist revolution isn't really in the cards. JerikTelorian fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Mar 19, 2020 |
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Mar 19, 2020 01:31
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JerikTelorian posted:I'm genuinely not following this logic. Whether it's Trump or Biden generally privileged people are going to be doing somewhere from fine to great. Both Biden and Trump fall into the latter category, hth.
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Mar 19, 2020 08:28
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JerikTelorian posted:I'm genuinely not following this logic. Whether it's Trump or Biden generally privileged people are going to be doing somewhere from fine to great. The real problem is the media has overcome people's senses that better things are possible. In spite of other countries have many of the things we want here we are told everyday by both MSM and our establishment democrats that this is as good as it gets. Biden is just a continuation of that. I do see a mass movement of progressive ideology in our future. 2016 we were awoken and activated. 2020 just think about how many donations and volunteers Bernie had. It just isn't the right the time and it isnt big enough yet. I have to believe that instead of giving into the cynicism because dying penniless and uncomfortable is too bitter a pill for me to swallow and I choose to hold onto hope.
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Mar 19, 2020 09:51
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JerikTelorian posted:I'm genuinely not following this logic. Whether it's Trump or Biden generally privileged people are going to be doing somewhere from fine to great. Like, why do you even believe that the Democrats "have a chance?" I feel like in order to support the Party at this point, one has to have an essentially superstitious belief that they are locked into some historical pathway that ends with a sane social democracy. But they're not. It's entirely possible for a nation to have a right-wing party and a far-right-wing party and to keep going on like that until it wrecks itself, and that's exactly what we're looking at. It's time to either build a third party or retake the Democratic Party by continuing to work from the ground up. Having to build a replacement for the Democratic Party obviously sucks. Realignment also sucks; it means fighting tooth and nail with the center of the Party, and the Party losing a lot of elections. But they're already doing that and will continue to do that. (That's without getting into Biden's horrible record. The logic is the same under President Klobuchar or whoever.)
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Mar 19, 2020 16:32
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Disclaimer: My apologies for the giant, wordy effortpost. I've been thinking heavily about topics in the thread, and being a giant maroon, it is difficult for me to express my conclusions concisely. Yeah, the arguments against a Biden presidency are incredibly strong (how would you like a continuation of most of Trump's policies, but with more war, and quieter so that people start to accept it all as 'normal'?). I'm not going to begrudge anyone who pulls the lever for Biden in some calculation of trying to fix the hosed-up trolley problem, but make no mistake that a Biden vs. Trump race is a giant middle finger to the world. I am however going to argue against voting for Biden, should he become the nominee and doesn't have a progressive VP (ha, humor, I know, but hey, worth deflecting that arrow before it arises). Biden isn't Trump; it's true that, to the extent he makes ANY public addresses, they will encourage normality and Number Go Up rather than encouraging his followers to seek '2nd Amendment Solutions'. He'll likely be just as bad (or, somehow, even worse) in foreign policy, will represent a final spiteful 'I know better than you so grow up' from a voting class that's going to increasingly dwindle in no small part due to their own voting record coming back to bite us all in the rear end after decades, and his campaign has repeatedly voiced open derision for the left and has signalled that he will attempt to close political avenues of progress and reject progressive measures. A Biden presidency will be bad in the way every presidency in my life up to this point has been bad, in that it will successfully convince a plurality of people that nothing is wrong while it slowly kills the world, with the Hellworld Bonus Time of opening the door for a more competent fascist to sweep up public support among the many aggrieved. For what it's worth regarding my discussion earlier, having given it more thought I'm still convinced that protest voting is a more nuanced tool than I think most here give it credit for. Hillary vs Trump was a poo poo sandwich, but one side had a little more bread; it's a bit easier to bring people around on their common enemy when they haven't already been convinced it's you. Lots of factions advanced Hitler in his early political career, thinking he was inept and the centralists needed to be brought to heel for the working class (which, well, they do, but history seems to suggest electoralism isn't the tool for that job). The communists viewed the Nazi party as inept and ignored them as a threat and were treated in turn to the Reichstag Fire Laws, quashing much of their influence. We got the Holocaust, a political ideology that now had a name and faces for future bigoted dipshits to look up to, then several decades of centrist-to-increasingly-right-leaning French and German regimes. I have come to the conclusion that in the event open fascists have made it to the ballot box, electoralism in the sort of society we currently live in with the kind of voting system we have is ONLY prepared to do harm mitigation (and I suspect many would argue that is by design; I would say it is perpetuated by design, but I'm not sure I'm ready to give credit to our drunken rear end in a top hat founders for such a nuanced plan). Non-electoral measures, down-ballot voting, building alternate power structures, those are absolutely vital for changing that system and this society. The issue, I think, is that I'm being told that protest votes tell the rulers of the Democratic party that they don't need to change. They don't give a poo poo. They are fine with losing. They responded to years of Reagan policy supremacy with Clinton making vague gestures at reinstating slavery, and gently caress if it didn't work in no small part because jesus white people what the gently caress is wrong with us. They aren't the people you need to target, and they have strong enough control over their own messaging that I don't think protest votes mean anything to them or most of the electorate that pays any attention to them. You need to work with the populace and build a strong progressive movement that can offer valid challengers, and it's easier to do that under a regime that isn't actively prosecuting you. I don't think Trump is our Hitler, but with a unifying identity for emboldened fascists to unite under, a gutted government more quickly killing us all, and loving concentration camps for kids, I think he has opened the door for that potential future Hitler, and I don't think most of that would have happened under Hillary (shitshow that she is). It's really hard to talk about 'short-term vs. long-term' profit for a political movement when that profit is measured in human lives and everyone you lose today is someone who can't help in the future. Lives are not fungible. People can't be rebuilt, replaced. And with historical evidence for enabling fascists by attempting to use electoralism to shift the center backfiring, I'm going to need to see a much stronger argument to convince me that the good-but-limited tool of electoralism should be used in that way. Voting for Hillary to keep the nazi rhetoric deplatformed from the loving presidency was much more excusable than voting for Biden now would be, where there's a good chance it will just be normalized in time for some ur-shitheel to come profit off of it. I have at least been convinced that the math for that decision is way out in the field, and that under most circumstances protest voting is a perfectly valid and useful tool, which was not my position before, so hey, small victories, maybe I'll get to live for a couple of years before some nazi disembowels me for kicks or a good old-fashioned circular firing squad decides I'm too much of a git. In this increasingly polarized and atomized loving hell, I'm starting to think the most likely future for humanity is that we end up murdering each other to the last well before we create the anoxic ocean. gently caress I'm tired.
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Mar 19, 2020 19:15
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JerikTelorian posted:I'm genuinely not following this logic. Whether it's Trump or Biden generally privileged people are going to be doing somewhere from fine to great. Neither candidate has a non-zero chance of fixing things for the oppressed, and both will actively cause a large amount of harm. I've noticed that many liberals/Democrats seem to think that the choice is between "minor improvements" and "greater improvements." This is not the case. Most Democrats, like Biden, cause a net harm. The only reason Obama isn't an extremely obvious net harm is that the ACA offsets some of the harm he did (though even then the harm still probably outweighed any benefits from the ACA).
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Mar 19, 2020 19:21
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Ytlaya posted:Neither candidate has a non-zero chance of fixing things for the oppressed, and both will actively cause a large amount of harm. The drone strikes and libya kinda outweighed the ACA. also all the people that went bankrupt. And the kids in cages. I do think that marriage equality was pretty freaking awesome though.
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Mar 19, 2020 20:01
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Marriage equality wasn't even Obama, though. That was the Supreme Court.
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Mar 19, 2020 20:23
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Which reminds me, I should point out that it is a pain to spend a day agonizing over a complex issue and then come back to a thread with 'okay I was wrong at like three other major junctures in my life ('04, '08, '12), but I still think I'm right about the time I was being called on'. It's like the worst of all worlds and clarifies the degree to which I'm a moron even if different camps are going to argue over the type of moron I am. 
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Mar 19, 2020 21:31
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Cerebral Bore posted:Marriage equality wasn't even Obama, though. That was the Supreme Court.
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Mar 19, 2020 21:43
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Halloween Jack posted:I feel like marriage equality is an exception that proves the rule, with regard to the Democratic Party and progressivism. They had to be dragged into it kicking and screaming, long after public opinion favoured it, and the fight was won by centering the conversation on "normal" middle-class suburban white people. And this is the Party's biggest "accomplishment" since...I don't even know. Man I wish he was the frontrunner, because he could really be hammering home some great point about that needs to change.
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Mar 19, 2020 22:46
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Prester Jane posted:Also I'd like to point out that if the DNC had vigorously opposed Trump from the start and/or tried to impeach Trump over something like the child concentration camps; then we literally wouldn't be having an uncontained covid 19 outbreak in the United States. In a similar vein: If the body-politic had engaged in a general strike over the concentration camps then we would not be having an uncontained toget 19 outbreak in the United States right now.
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Mar 20, 2020 02:35
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Since Joe Biden has come out of hiding over the last 48 hours as his handlers pump him full of stuff that you used to only be able to buy on The Silk Road and the 100% credible rape accusation by Tara Reade where he pinned her and shoved his hand down the front of her skirt, anyone wanna extol the virtues of voting blue no matter who? Any takers?
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Mar 25, 2020 20:56
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Phone posted:Since Joe Biden has come out of hiding over the last 48 hours as his handlers pump him full of stuff that you used to only be able to buy on The Silk Road and the 100% credible rape accusation by Tara Reade where he pinned her and shoved his hand down the front of her skirt, anyone wanna extol the virtues of voting blue no matter who? I fully believe in voting the lesser of two evils and think even the most Joe Manchin of Democrats is worth voting in over Trump. I'm not voting for Biden.
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Mar 25, 2020 21:05
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I'll be voting for whoever had the (D) on the ticket. gently caress Donald Trump, we cannot afford 4 more years of this absolute madness.
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Mar 25, 2020 21:46
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I don't know anymore. However; I will probably get behind any movement to get Biden impeached afterwards.
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Mar 25, 2020 21:49
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I was already pretty vocal on it but it was about like 25% trolling and more of me not being sure what I'll do and taking the position most likely to tweak people for fun times on the internet. Now I'm 100%, I'm not voting Biden. I'll vote downticket, I'll vote for my local races, but I'm sick of being told I need to vote for OUR brand of sex predator who wants to stomp the throat of the poor, because gosh isn't THEIR brand of that just so crass and gross?
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Mar 25, 2020 21:51
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I'd just like to reiterate the point, which I'm sure has already been made, that if you vote blue no matter who, you give the democratic establishment no reason to give you good candidates. If you are willing to vote for the turd in a suit, they will only give you turds in suits. If you are willing to vote for the rear end in a top hat who helps rich people, they will only give you assholes who help rich people. Your vote is your only leverage in our political system. To give it away is to give away your political power. To withhold it is to exercise your power. By voting for any democrat, you are encouraging their worst actions.
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Mar 25, 2020 21:52
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How are u posted:I'll be voting for whoever had the (D) on the ticket. gently caress Donald Trump, we cannot afford 4 more years of this absolute madness. By "this absolute madness" I have to assume you're talking about having a president that does not understand how to use makeup properly or listen to people who do. That might be the strangest issue I've ever heard of to be a single issue voter on, but you do you.
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Mar 25, 2020 21:53
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How are u posted:I'll be voting for whoever had the (D) on the ticket. gently caress Donald Trump, we cannot afford 4 more years of this absolute madness. So there's literally nothing the Democrat could do? You'd vote for Hitler if he had a D next to his name? Or is there a line where someone becomes too evil, but rapist isn't over it for you?
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Mar 25, 2020 21:55
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Can we finally treat libs like chuds now that they're supporting a racist rapist for president
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Mar 25, 2020 21:55
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How are u posted:I'll be voting for whoever had the (D) on the ticket. gently caress Donald Trump, we cannot afford 4 more years of this absolute madness. If that person is Joe Biden, you're a bad person if you vote for him.
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Mar 25, 2020 21:58
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How are u posted:I'll be voting for whoever had the (D) on the ticket. gently caress Donald Trump, we cannot afford 4 more years of this absolute madness. What if Trump runs as a Democrat?
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Mar 25, 2020 22:00
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Having Joe Biden in office would literally be worse than 4 more years of Trump. Trump is completely incapable of getting anything done and he forces comfortable people to care about politics when they would not otherwise. Biden in office means that he gets to make things even worse than Trump does now and nobody will pay any attention whatsoever.
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Mar 25, 2020 22:01
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Watching neolibs defend Biden the same way chuds defend Trump is depressing. It's like finding out everyone you were booing with was actually saying "boo-urns"
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Mar 25, 2020 22:01
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I'd just like to reiterate the point, which I'm sure has already been made, that if you vote blue no matter who, you give the democratic establishment no reason to give you good candidates. If you are willing to vote for the turd in a suit, they will only give you turds in suits. If you are willing to vote for the rear end in a top hat who helps rich people, they will only give you assholes who help rich people. Your vote is your only leverage in our political system. To give it away is to give away your political power. To withhold it is to exercise your power. The worst actions are currently being directed from the White House so I'll take even the most centrist shithead Dem over Trump and his cronies actively working to destroy everything even marginally good in our govt. - Supreme Court / Judges - EPA - Social Security - Diplomacy & Intl Cooperation - handling a global pandemic in even the most barely competent manner The list goes on and on. The choice is not difficult.
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Mar 25, 2020 22:11
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:Having Joe Biden in office would literally be worse than 4 more years of Trump. Trump is completely incapable of getting anything done and he forces comfortable people to care about politics when they would not otherwise. Biden in office means that he gets to make things even worse than Trump does now and nobody will pay any attention whatsoever. You're living in cloud-cuckoo-land if you believe this. Brain poisoned by Twitter.
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Mar 25, 2020 22:12
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How are u posted:You're living in cloud-cuckoo-land if you believe this. Brain poisoned by Twitter. This is exactly what happened under Obama, Clinton, Hindenburg etc... Centrists lead to fascists, there's more than enough analysis and historical evidence to support that claim. You're the delusional one voting for a rapist.
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Mar 25, 2020 22:16
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How are u posted:The worst actions are currently being directed from the White House so I'll take even the most centrist shithead Dem over Trump and his cronies actively working to destroy everything even marginally good in our govt. Supreme court like Clarence Thomas Social Security he'd cut Diplomacy like the Iraq war And have you heard any words out of his mouth on the pandemic? He is not competent, let alone capable of handling things in the most barely competent manner. It took him a week to set up his in-home podcast! I'll give you the EPA only because I don't want to look into it and find yet another reason to hate Biden.
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Mar 25, 2020 22:16
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How are u posted:The worst actions are currently being directed from the White House so I'll take even the most centrist shithead Dem over Trump and his cronies actively working to destroy everything even marginally good in our govt. - there's nothing to suggest that the senate republicans wouldn't do an exact replay of what they did with the garland nomination - the epa was started by a republican and is actually bad if you think about it (seriously though, who cares about the EPA? it's been thrown to the wolves of regulatory capture) - remember obama's grand bargain? (hint: it was to gut social security) - who gives a poo poo - yeah we should trust the morons who handled the 2008 financial crisis and the ppaca, this time they won't gently caress up throw that lever for the Good Rapist with no brain, though. maybe his republican vp will deliver on the stuff you want.
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Mar 25, 2020 22:17
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How are u posted:The worst actions are currently being directed from the White House so I'll take even the most centrist shithead Dem over Trump and his cronies actively working to destroy everything even marginally good in our govt. Biden spent 30 years trying to cut social security and promised to try again as president. Biden fought tooth and nail to deplatform a sexual assault survivor to nominate rapist and conservative Clarence Thomas. Biden's response to the pandemic has been to vanish from the public eye and issue absolutely bizarre and incoherent interviews. Biden's cabinet is filled with the literal architects of the 2008 crash.
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Mar 25, 2020 22:17
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